K&M 18820 Stacker complaint and workaround

[MathOfInsects]

Replies to the previous thread on this keep getting blocked by the forum host for SQL injection prevention, so I'm starting a new one instead.

 

I picked up the 18820 a couple of months ago, as part of my comically long and ongoing search for the perfect stand.

 

The base is nice. Very stable, pretty easy to fold and carry, with nice shallow rails to rest the keyboard on, so you don't take up a lot of stage room. However, nice as it is, it's a minor drag as a one-board stand. It's a little big when broken down, and is way heavier, thicker, and more unwieldy than the lowly X. Plus not that easy to carry; you have to hold it just right or the legs will swing down, or else you have to have velcro'd it closed, which is fine, but one more thing to have to do before and after a gig. So it's "fine" but not great for a quick one-trip rehearsal or gig set-up, IMO.

 

However I mainly got it as a two-tier stand. That's what this thread is about.

 

When the 18811 Second Tier stackers arrived, I actually jumped online to see if I'd made a mistake in which item I ordered. They are ridiculously out of scale with the rest of the stand. To use them, you replace the nice, shallow, original rails, with ones that add another 2.5 inches in front and 1 inch in back.

 

http://i.imgur.com/R8cnfT0.jpg

 

Look how far it sticks out, compared to the other side. That's silly.

 

 

Look how much of the stand is just the apparatus of the second tier.

 

 

Even if you pull out the top rails off for transport, or don't use them at all for a gig, you're still stuck with those dumb-long bottom rails and the back "walls" of them for transport and (worse) for single-board gigs, unless you want to swap rails on and off before every different kind of gig.

 

Not only that, but no matter how cleverly you plan it, the space between the top tier and bottom is unworkably large, at least for me. This is with a tilt in place:

 

That all amounts to a deal-killer for me. A not-ideal one-board stand that is a complete hassle as a two-board stand does not advance my rig in any meaningful way. I decided either to hacksaw my expensive new stand and try to salvage the investment somehow, or just send it all back.

 

BUT....then I had a brainstorm. I knew the THIRD tier, the 18822, was attached by inserting it into the second tier. I looked it up and sure enough, not only is it way smaller, but has no bottom rails of its own. Here it is next to the second tier.

 

 

(The rails are shorter too, you just can't tell from that pic.)

 

I checked and the first-tier rails and second-tier rails are the same size. So that means that in theory, you could insert the THIRD tier into the FIRST tier rails, and have a much smaller and more compact second tier.

 

So, always the savvy investor, I sunk more money into this standsaster, and ordered the third tier.

 

I pulled the back rubber stopper off the original rails...

 

 

 

(There is an additional step involved in this, let me know if you want to know about it.)

 

Drilled a hole for the bolt and thumb-screw from the THIRD tier base...

 

 

And like magic, I was back to a compact little set-up. The top board is three inches closer to the bottom one, the stand doesn't take up more more room than it did before, and it barely adds any weight or bulk, particularly after pulling those (much smaller) top tier rails out for transport. Here it is untilted:

 

 

So I'm back to keeping the stand and stackers, and offering this as a potential workaround for others who find the second tier to be nigh on useless for this otherwise nifty but expensive stand.

[Outkaster]

I have the same setup. It seems a decent stand is always elusive.

[Doerfler]

As for me, I have a K&M 18880, which is the folding stand, along with the 18881 and 18882 second and thrd tier stackers. Bought them direct fom Germany, saved me quite a bit of cash. Another on this forum that I respect uses the base and second tier, so I went ahead and made the purchase. Bought the third tier because, hey, you only live once. Surprisingly lightweight, yet sturdy. Once when I wanted to use Moog Voyager as the second tier keyboard I couldn't because it was too deep. Solution was to eliminate the second tier and just add the third tier to the base ( the back is open, not needing to support another tier).

So yes, Jason's post above is correct. Unless one goes the very pricy custom drum stand route. K&M stands are pricy enough for me.

[dazzjazz]

I have the same stand and have had the same issues. After a similar amount of consternation, I decided it"s a studio-only stand, especially with the second tier attached (who would bother pull that apart every night?). It was difficult to carry and difficult to transport.

 

I had the same height issues too - I really want the top keyboard to be super close to the bottom, even if it obscures some controls. My right shoulder would fatigue badly playing the top keyboard. I ended up getting a friend who runs a metal work shop to cut 10cm off the second tier, but it"s still far from ideal.

 

Can you post a picture of your solution please, showing how close the two keyboards are?

[MathOfInsects]

Oh, I did, but for some reason it's the only one that didn't show up in the post.

 

See if this does it:

 

https://i.imgur.com/LE1RnAC.jpg

[dazzjazz]

Thanks, I did see that one but it"s hard for me to tell from that angle. Any chance of a shot from the front please?

[MathOfInsects]

Attaching the couple of others I have from yesterday but will take some more with clear measurements tomorrow.

 

I think these are both tilted.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks guys. I've been very interested in this setup but because of the poor documentation on it's flexibility (coupled with it's cost) I've been holding off.

 

I hate to say it, but for a lot of 2 tier options, you're better off using 2 x stands.

[Doerfler]

I hate to say it, but for a lot of 2 tier options, you're better off using 2 x stands.

 

Better is subjective, n'est pas?

[agitato]

I use the 18950 keyboard table with the 18952 stacker set attachments. Very easy to set up/tear down. 18950 is width adjustable and folds flat is slightly over 21 lbs and is very easy to carry. Use it a lot for solo piano gigs and single keyboard band rehearsals. Use it with the stacker attachments for two keyboard band gigs. Have used both for at least 10 years and am very satisfied with it. A very solid well-made stand. Am thinking about getting a Gibraltar GEMS Electronic Mounting Station (Is anyone familiar at all with this?) to place behind the 18950 with stackers for a third keyboard for certain band gigs.

[JimboKeys]

Am thinking about getting a Gibraltar GEMS Electronic Mounting Station (Is anyone familiar at all with this?) to place behind the 18950 with stackers for a third keyboard for certain band gigs.

I have my Reface keyboard sitting on a Gibraltar GEMS Electronic Mounting Station. It's actually deep enough that there's room for my laptop behind the Reface.

The one dimension that isn't generally listed on anyone's website is the width of the crosspiece, which is only 12 inches. I haven't tried putting a larger keyboard on but i can see where that could be dicey (though the base of the stand is wide enough that that part wouldn't be a problem). I've thought of suggesting to Gibraltar that they offer a wider crosspiece (e.g. 24 inch) as an add-on option. You could cut a larger tube down to whatever size you wanted, though there's a square hole in the crosspiece that you'd need to cut.

 

- Jimbo

 

P.S. You had me curious, so i just tried putting a (fairly heavy) 61-key keyboard on the GEMS. Not going to fall down, though the stand does flex noticeably.

[johnchop]

Genius! I have the same complaint.

 

Definitely interested in how you got the rubber stopper off (I have not tried), and what sort of drill bit you used to get through that steel.

 

I come from a long line of mechanically challenged people, so these things are never obvious to me.

[johnchop]

I"ll also add: Gott im Himmel that is an expensive attachment. I don"t think I paid that much for the wonky second tier.

[MathOfInsects]

I"ll also add: Gott im Himmel that is an expensive attachment. I don"t think I paid that much for the wonky second tier.

Yeah. This whole endeavor started because I found my old wedding ring in a drawer and sold it for more than I expected. So I put that money into this stand, since it's been on my radar. That third tier is the only part of "my" money I spent. It's silly that even with this as a fix, I'm still thinking about hacksawing or just hacking some parts of it from here. But I'll have to get a real gig or two under my belt before I decide on the stand's use-or-lose fate. I am thinking that if I can make a handy "wrap and carry" strap it might counter some of my portability objections, and maybe double as cable-management. If this carted easily in one hand I'd be less griped about it as a one-board stand.

 

To answer the other questions: There is a "tack" that you can't see embedded in the center hole of that rubber stopper, driving down into the rail--kind of like the ones that hold car parts together. (I had to look into the tube with a flashlight to see it.) I took a wide flathead screwdriver and slipped it under the pad, then turned it vertically a couple of times until that tack came out. Once it does the stopper just pulls off. I'll post pics of this if you need, all the parts are still close by.

 

There is a tool you can use for the tacks in cars, that might reach far enough to do this same job here. But they break the tack, so you'd have to find a replacement if you ever wanted it in there again. (I doubt you'd really need it.)

 

I just used a regular drill bit, because the titanium bits I have are the wrong size. It worked fine. I sprayed a little WD40 first, but I don't think I really needed to. Metal fragments are the byproduct of this so I did it dentist-style with a hand-vac sucking up the metaldust as I went. Honestly, this part was easier than getting that damned tack out. It was as easy as drilling any other hole.

 

There is still close to an inch of play at the lowest setting of those third rails. I can see a time in the very near future where I just hack off the bottom inch so they sit even closer. But right now they are completely "in the realm" and way better than those useless 18811's I wasted precious wedding ring money on.

[agitato]

JimboKeys, my plan would be to use the GEMS mostly with the Korg Microstation which is 30.63" x 8.27" x 3.23" weight slightly over 5lbs, maybe occasionally with the Roland VR-09.

[MathOfInsects]

Apologies, I never did update this with pictures that show the distance between the tiers. This is my set-up for tonight:

 

[Delaware Dave]

I have the dreaded two tier x-stand. Sets up in 10 seconds; breaks down in 10 seconds and has NEVER failed in over 30 years. Takes limited space and is lightweight. Just sayin' ......

[Spider76]

Nice workaround! I have the 18810 (the original, non-folding Omega) that I use as a fixed setup for the organ corner of my studio (the base is wide enough for the pedaboard).

The second tier is carrying a synth above the SK2 and yes it's quite high, although it never bothered me because a two-manual is quite tall by itself and it needs room above to operate the drawbars.

Still, it's great to know the third tier also fits, just in case I change my setup in the future. Thanks!

[Tonysounds]

So if I understand correctly, the 3rd tier stacker then fit nicely into the rubber-less original "tier", and the screwhole you added seals the deal? Any chance there's a picture of the assembly sans keyboard? I've been hunting for someone to fabricate a 2nd tier I can actually use, and that seems perfect. Additionally, how tight can you get your FA and Stage if the FA is NOT tilted? I have a Stage underneath, and would like a nice compromise of useful access and ergonomics. Thanks in advance!

[MathOfInsects]

So if I understand correctly, the 3rd tier stacker then fit nicely into the rubber-less original "tier", and the screwhole you added seals the deal? Any chance there's a picture of the assembly sans keyboard? I've been hunting for someone to fabricate a 2nd tier I can actually use, and that seems perfect. Additionally, how tight can you get your FA and Stage if the FA is NOT tilted? I have a Stage underneath, and would like a nice compromise of useful access and ergonomics. Thanks in advance!

You got it.

 

I have a few gigs to get through this weekend, but will post as soon as the stand is set up again in the studio...or will forget and take weeks before I get to it, like last time. I'm nothing if not unreliable.

[Tonysounds]

Oh.what is the additional step to getting the hockey puck off the end of the original arm? I just ordered the triple stacker.

[Stokely]

Hey all, I'm bumping this since there are multiple people I'd love to hear from.

I have the Omega pro and really like it, but dislike what I see about the 2nd tier for the same reasons as the original post.  I may pull the trigger on the 3rd tier from Thomann.  I originally bought with the intent of doing a fair number of one-keyboard gigs but I've kind of gone back in my thinking to always having two--but would love to use the Omega Pro!

The better part of a year later, how has this been working out?

[MathOfInsects]

Double-edged answer: It is fine as two-board stand--stable, cool-looking, and very functional. The "hack" makes it very usable for two boards, maybe the best option for that I've used, in terms of the kind of placement I prefer.

I will never, ever use it as a single-board stand.

BUT...this thing is still stupid obnoxious to transport. It's often the sole reason I have to take a second trip. This could not grate harder against my impulse for rig economy. You can't load it onto your cart the wide way because it doesn't fit through doors. You can't load it on "end" because there is no "end," just the extending bracket, so it tips over all the time. You can barely even carry it by hand without getting grappling-hooked onto a doorway or handrail.

 

Plus the set-up and tear-down, while quick, is idiosyncratic and clumsy. You can never quite tell if it's open all the way and locked in, and you can only fold it down in a particular order, which sounds minor but somehow adds up to whichever way you do it will be the wrong way, so then you have to set it up again in order to break it down the right way. I have a label on there now reminding me which side goes in there first, but if I need a label for a one-piece stand with two hinge points, that stand's 23-and-Me probably came back 93% "Suck."

I will stop using it for live gigs as soon as I can swing the scratch for another two-board option. It will just live in my studio and mock me from a foot or two away.

[Stokely]

Interesting.  I didn't have much problem with it in single-tier mode, though I did use a bungie to keep it from unfolding.  Granted I only used it for a couple shows and haven't tried it on my cart.  Are the issues due to the 2nd tier?   For the mic stand adapter, I ended up taking most of it off for transport (leaving the bit that screws on to the main stand).

I have the Spider pro which is now ridiculously expensive, and while it is good I like the open design of the Omega pro.  I'm too tall to play standing on x-stands and the omega (barely) can be set high enough for me.

Ironically, part of the reason I got the spider pro was that my old Z stand was a bit of a pain to fold up and transport with the 2nd tier on it.  Now here I'm considering one that has a bit of the same problem as the Z!

The Spider pro is handy to carry but it isn't the best on my cart--it's a cylinder, so you can't easily stack anything above it and it wants to roll off if it's on top.  I basically just bungie/strap everything to hell and back to solve that issue.
 

[DJkeys]

The Omega is great if you don't have to move it.  I found the K&M 18880 and 18881 stacker are perfect.  Lightweight (<10Lbs) , set up and tear down are 20 seconds each. Very solid (better than the Baby Spider Pro it replaced).

 

About the same price as Omega. Best keyboard stand I ever owned.  It is so easy to move that I no longer need a spare to leave at rehearsal.

 

 

[Noah DC]

Is that an iPad attachment you've got on there or a mic stand? And if so, which one?

[DJkeys]

Actually, it is part of an On-Stage Mic attachment (KSA7575) that I force-fit into the end of the tier. 

I added a quick-release for the mic boom.  

 

-dj

[RBkeys]

how do you remove the end pads from k&m 18820 keyboard stand ans support arms?

[DJFisch]

Hey

 

Thanks @MathOfInsects for this post cuz i thought i was the only one. Not the only one who has this problem with this stand (I don't own this stand as of now) but the issue of finding the perfect stand. I play keyboard and DJ. Currently I have a Baby Spider Pro for my Korg PA3X, and use an X stand for my DJ board in heavy case. The X stand is hidden behind a facade so i can get away with it for now ;-). But a) I've been looking for something more compact in terms of setup (my side by side setup is about 10-12 feet wide with speakers and screens and everything b) I want something sleeker/cooler looking with  more of an original feel. c) I want something that will involve less schlepping.

 

And so i want to do DJ board on second tier (with laptop on a DIY 3rd tier technically, but could just do a laptop clamp off to the side...still trying to figure this out).

I have gone through every iteration I could come up with. Tried every Z stand I could find. Most aren't portabler at all, and even ones that officially are, are BARELY portable even without second tier. Add a second tier, and then a third space for a laptop...it gets out of hand. Have tried some DIY things...nothing has helped. As of yesterday, my next step was going to be to try the Omega. And then last night i was a guest at a party and saw someone with the Omega and was excited to see it in person and discuss with him. He said he was very happy with it. Was ready to order this morning.

 

I'm SO glad I found this post. Very insightful and helpful and sort of talked me out of it. Not totally, but gives me enough reservation to hold off and CONTINUE researching.

 

My question for the group....what about the Spider Pro? That has a second tier built in. What are your thoughts on that? Has that ever entered this conversation as an option? Pros? Cons?

Thanks!

[Rustar]

The perfect stand is a "Golden Fleece" for keyboardists. I've been using a heavy duty X stand for about 20 years, and it works fine, the only hitch being the placement of my volume and sustain pedals around the feet of the stand. I heard about this stand in the "Keyboardist's for Cover Bands" forum on FB. I took a chance on it and it has turned out to be perfect for me. The bottom tier is super stable, and the top tier is adjustable for how much you want your top keyboard to overhang your lower. There is limitless room for feet and pedals. I leave mine assembled for transport, so that's easy. I haven't used it for standup gigs, but the legs are adjustable. It's called the "Griffin Double Piano Keyboard & Laptop Stand 2 Tier/Dual Portable Studio Mixer Rack for Turntables, DJ Coffins, Speakers, Digital Audio Gear & Music Equipment | Folding Stage Mount Multi Platform", and it's $95 on Amazon.