Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

How Many Here Use a Ribbon Mic?


Recommended Posts

I'll start with the bottom line: with ribbon mics coming down in price, I was wondering if any of you had any experience with lower-cost ribbon mics, and if so, how you use them and whether you find them satisfactory.

 

As to the backstory, Dave Bryce was kind enough to loan me a Cloud JRS-34 for testing a couple years back, which was great for whenever I needed to evaluate preamps, audio interfaces, and such. However it didn't get much day-to-day use, because my vocal chain and presets are all set up around using condenser mics, which give the brightness my voice desperately needs. However...

 

When I started doing more narration for videos, I found that the ribbon gave a warm sound that made my voice sound, well, more "mature" for lack of a better term. One night I was recording vocals for a rock song, and was too lazy to take down the ribbon and put up the condenser instead. Since it was just a scratch vocal while songwriting, I didn't worry too much about the vocal tone.

 

On playback, I did find the highs lacking compared to the condensers I normally use. Just for kicks, I turned the high-end EQ way up (which to be fair, the mic's documentation says you can do) and...hmmm, that gave the vocal tone I wanted. I try to avoid that much high end normally, because it brings up mouth clicks and sibilants. But...they weren't there! It seemed the same ribbon characteristic that made my voice less bright than I wanted also created some kind of immunity to high-frequency crap, even with a significant treble boost.

 

Intrigued, I started using the ribbon more and more, and over time, cracked the code of how to optimize everything for my voice. I've now gotten to the point where the ribbon is on the vocal mic stand all the time, even though I'm paranoid about their reputed delicacy (which is another reason I used it for narration instead of rock vocals). But I have a really good pop screen, and sing about 18 inches away, so I don't think I'm blasting it hard enough to cause damage.

 

Now, the JRS-34 isn't exactly cheap - about $1,500. Expense and fragility have always been barriers to widespread adoption in home studios. But, I gotta say, the cost translates into the sound quality. Which brings me back to the beginning of this post - anyone using any of the current crop of lower-cost ribbon mics, and if so, what do you think of them?

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 11
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Haven't in a long time, but:

Decades ago, I bought a gently used RCA DX-77 Ribbon Mic at a reasonable cost. I did eventually sell it. But the thing I liked the most was the effect (in a studio or other wind-free place) that it had on my voice even just speaking. First one I used was at an AM radio station where I was the C.E and also some evening DJ work, plus local news director. Loved that enhancement of my natural voice that I just don't get with any of my modern dynamic or condenser mikes.

 

"Broadcast quality" if one wanted that old-time radio pro announcer voice.

 

I actually got fairly good at replacing a stretched ribbon on the radio station's multiple DX-77s, or tickling one that wasn't quite stretched that bad back into working.

 

Would probably be great now for my Bible Study messages on YouTube. My condenser mic. through a Focusrite 18i8 into one of the Macs sounds pretty good also. Since I sometimes record the physical class, I'm using a Zoom H1n now, so much more portable.

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a CAD D-82, got it as part of a trade. I've tried it on a few things. I think it sounds really good but it is very sensitive to plosives.

A while back I did a mic shootout with a friend who can really sing and she chose it as her second favorite after the Shure KSM8.

 

I recently bought a Stedman pop filter, which seems to be superior in all ways to the Blue pop filter I was using. I need to try it with the CAD, it has a screen that re-directs the air flow while allowing the sound to come through. That might make it more usable in more situations.

 

It has a huge, friendly sounding low end, probably great for bass cabs, just for one. It does have a sound all it's own for vocals, none of my dynamic or condenser mics sound like it. So I keep it.

 

Since they are not expensive, I've considered getting another for Blumlein room mics. Also, since it is a figure of eight pattern with fat magnets protecting the ribbon from the sides, the nulls are deep. That could play well with the set up Chip was describing in another post. I don't think it will pick up much.

 

There was something in the George Massenberg forum (I scanned every page and read a lot of it!) about an engineer who learned a lot by looking at studio shots of vintage recordings by Sinatra and others. They used the nulls to place mics when recording a complete finished record in one take and he was influenced by their placement choices since many of those records are fantastic.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ribbons are my go to mics for about everything. I have three Royer 121s, a pair of Coles 4038 and a few cheap Chinese knockoffs that have had the transformers switched out for Royer transformers.

 

Ribbons have very little to none phase shift at the very highest frequencies. I suspect what you hear when you think highs are missing compared to condenser mics is their lack of distortion. Another thing you will find is that you can boost the hell out of the top end, if you want, without the sound going tk hell as it would with a condenser. Ribbons will come the closest to anything you have ever tried as far as capturing a perfect square wave, which make them the mic of choice for recording distortion from guitar amps.

 

People worry about the pattern, but i use the Royers live on stage for guitar amps with no issues. I have also never needed any additional boosters mic pre"s from back as far as my VS880 days to my current API"s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me, a mic is a mic is a mic. There's nothing uniquely special about ribbon mics other than that they need more gain than most other types of mics in order to get the same record level. My first ribbon mics were Beyer M260s because I was looking for something different than SM57s and RE-11s (never could afford -15s) and a trusted engineer friend suggested the Beyers. I found myself using the M260s most of the time when I'd reach for an SM57, not because I thought they sounded better, but they were different and sounded very good for whatever I used them on. When the ribbons died on one of my M260s and factory service was outrageously expensive, I asked Stephen Sank if he could replace the ribbon. He did, but not with a Beyer "piston" style ribbon, but with a 77DX style, and doggone if it no longer sounded like a Beyer, but sounded very much like an RCA.

 

I got a really good deal on a pair of Beyer M160s, quite a different mic, and also one that sounded great wherever I put it. I particularly like it on fiddle since its directivity pattern is fairly tight, but about 2 feet above the fiddle, it captures the full sound of the instrument and provides a little (but not much) isolation. When looking for an inexpensive mic to recommend to someone who just wanted to use a ribbon mic on banjo, I picked up a Cascade Fathead and that was yet another ribbon mic that sounded different than the others in the closet, and, yes, excellent on both a bright bluegrass banjo and a plunky old time banjo. The Fathead was the first ribbon mic I owned that had a "classic ribbon figure-8/null" pattern. Wish I'd bought a pair of them.

 

While I'd love to have a few Royers or AEAs, or Clouds hanging around here, I just don't do enough paying work to justify the cost. But when Samar showed a $400 ribbon mic at last year's AES show, I bit, mostly because I like talking with Mark Fouxman (the maker) and I had faith that he would make the best darn sounding ribbon mic that he could for the price. Like all the rest of my ribbon mics, I really liked how it sounded wherever I used it, even as my mic for Zoom sessions. However, I've been a bit disappointed with the fact that it seemed to be more prone to hum pickup than other mics I have, and for quiet instruments like finger style acoustic guitar and fretted dulcimer, I need to get it closer than where it sounds good in order to have an acceptable signal-to-hum ratio. I really need to send this one back to Mark and see if it's what he considers normal or if there's a missing or broken ground wire or could use some magnetic shielding where there isn't any. But with brass or even over the strings of a piano, it's excellent. I just like my mics to be more universal than this,

 

So, yeah, I use condenser mics and dynamic mics and ribbon mics and occasionally, still, a hot-rodded Radio Shack PZM. No culture bias here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me, a mic is a mic is a mic. There's nothing uniquely special about ribbon mics other than that they need more gain than most other types of mics in order to get the same record level.

 

You may noticed one of the differences in your notes. Or, it could very well be a noisy example. My CAD D-82 is lower gain than my dynamic or condenser mics. That means it needs more preamp gain and in the end, more noise - partly because the signal to noise ratio of the mic itself is lower and most preamps are at their best set to lower levels - they do begin to hum a bit if you have to turn them up.

 

We can usually set dynamic mics closer to the sound source than other mics and they still sound good. Condenser mics have a much higher output and a better signal to noise ratio typically.

 

I like my ribbon generally on louder sounds, it seems to flatter them nicely and that drives the output. I also use a Cloudlifter most of the time and I recommend it. That can really lower the preamp level and clean things up.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

You may noticed one of the differences in your notes. Or, it could very well be a noisy example. My CAD D-82 is lower gain than my dynamic or condenser mics. That means it needs more preamp gain and in the end, more noise - partly because the signal to noise ratio of the mic itself is lower and most preamps are at their best set to lower levels - they do begin to hum a bit if you have to turn them up.

 

Noise is noise, but hum is a special kind of noise. In my not terribly complete tests, in the same environment, I was seeing a few dB more 60 Hz and 180 Hz in the noise spectrum with the Samar than with the Cascade mics. Programs like iZotope RX are good at getting rid of power line frequency hum, but I shouldn't I need to buy a fairly expensive program in order to feel comfortable with using the mic.

 

As I think I mentioned, the problem isn't horrid, but if it's noticeable, it's a problem. I've gotta write to Mark this week so I can stop hinting that the Samar A95 might have an EMI problem. I hope it really doesn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

You may noticed one of the differences in your notes. Or, it could very well be a noisy example. My CAD D-82 is lower gain than my dynamic or condenser mics. That means it needs more preamp gain and in the end, more noise - partly because the signal to noise ratio of the mic itself is lower and most preamps are at their best set to lower levels - they do begin to hum a bit if you have to turn them up.

 

Noise is noise, but hum is a special kind of noise. In my not terribly complete tests, in the same environment, I was seeing a few dB more 60 Hz and 180 Hz in the noise spectrum with the Samar than with the Cascade mics. Programs like iZotope RX are good at getting rid of power line frequency hum, but I shouldn't I need to buy a fairly expensive program in order to feel comfortable with using the mic.

 

As I think I mentioned, the problem isn't horrid, but if it's noticeable, it's a problem. I've gotta write to Mark this week so I can stop hinting that the Samar A95 might have an EMI problem. I hope it really doesn't.

 

Got it. I had my studio set up in my living room which shares a wall with the unit next door. I was testing my new Heil PR-40 and in that room it was an EMI nightmare.

I took it to the far end of my unit, away from that wall - plugged it into my Fishman Loudbox and it was dead quiet. I added a Furman P-8 Pro C to my rack and the EMI went away.

I suspect they put in a new home entertainment system on the other side of the wall, with a huge TV. Just a guess.

 

Now I've moved everything over to the other side of the unit, out of the living room. Much quieter over here, both EMI and external noise (irony, the neighbor above me just flushed, a condenser mic would probably pick that up, a dynamic not so much).

 

I hope you can get your mic to be quiet!

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I think I mentioned, the problem isn't horrid, but if it's noticeable, it's a problem. I've gotta write to Mark this week so I can stop hinting that the Samar A95 might have an EMI problem. I hope it really doesn't.

 

Is there a transformer? Maybe it needs better shielding?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there a transformer? Maybe it needs better shielding?

 

I haven't tried to take it apart to see, but I had indeed thought of that. Since it's a ribbon mic it likely has a transformer, and everyone uses "custom wound" transformers nowadays, whether in a mic, a DI, a preamp, or a box designed to do nothing but distort the signal coming into it,.

]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well...

 

I do, of course..but then again, in addition to being Cloud's director of sales and marketing I also run sales for AEA, so I have quite a few. :idea::boing:

 

Besides my R44CXE, my other favorite is my KU5A. Topaddress ribbon inspired by the RCA BK5. Replaced my Shure Beta 58 as my live vocal mic - the thing takes serious SPL, right up to me leaning my face on it when I sing - but I've also used it in the hammers of my piano.

 

One of the things I LOVE to do is use one ribbon and one condenser when I'm doing captures. Mispatched pairs, if you will. :idk::cool:

 

dB

:snax:

 

:keys:==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <==:rawk:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well...

 

One of the things I LOVE to do is use one ribbon and one condenser when I'm doing captures. Mispatched pairs, if you will. :idk::cool:

 

dB

 

I am a big fan of mismatched pairs. Some mics sound great together because they are not the same.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...