Sea of knobs or Menu Dive

[KuruPrionz]

Knobs are bad, I do not like them.

 

Menu dives are bad, I do not like them either.

 

Complexity glorifies the Engineer and degrades the Artist.

 

Without the Artist, the Engineer is NOTHING (don't tell anybody!!!!!).

 

I can parse all of this sh!t but that does not make me like it or think that it is good.

 

Therefore, less is more and more less is more more.

[Docbop]

Knobs are bad, I do not like them.

 

Menu dives are bad, I do not like them either.

 

Complexity glorifies the Engineer and degrades the Artist.

 

Without the Artist, the Engineer is NOTHING (don't tell anybody!!!!!).

 

I can parse all of this sh!t but that does not make me like it or think that it is good.

 

Therefore, less is more and more less is more more.

 

But what makes the artist is their ability to mix all the colors in order to express themselves in unique ways.

[CowboyNQ]

'Sea of Knobs' is an apt description of certain football crowds I"ve found myself in.

[GRollins]

Knobs

 

Duh

 

Grey

[Spider76]

My workflow is the same as many others here: deep programming at home, and then tweak as little as possible onstage.

But that little tweaking may do all the difference and needs to be fast and immediate, especially in emergencies! And even at home anyway, I enjoy more programming with knobs and sliders, rather than menu diving or connecting a software editor.

So for me, it's knobs all the way.

[KuruPrionz]

Knobs are bad, I do not like them.

 

Menu dives are bad, I do not like them either.

 

Complexity glorifies the Engineer and degrades the Artist.

 

Without the Artist, the Engineer is NOTHING (don't tell anybody!!!!!).

 

I can parse all of this sh!t but that does not make me like it or think that it is good.

 

Therefore, less is more and more less is more more.

 

But what makes the artist is their ability to mix all the colors in order to express themselves in unique ways.

 

Which is why I play a guitar...

With a scalloped fretboard

On the neck pickup

With the knobs cranked

And a heavy pick.

 

I dial an amp, a few knobs but I know where they go. Then I get all of my different tones by where and how I pick with the right hand and how I manipulate the string with my left.

At that point you could remove all the knobs and never change anything again. Volume and tone changes including harmonics are all digital. My hands have 10 digits.

 

Plus, you left out switches... Cheers, Kuru

[Mighty Motif Max]

I like a lot of knobs for a synth, mainly for patch creation. Otherwise, I'm comfortable with lots of menus for anything else. In a general purpose board I like controllers but not for sound design (rather, I like them for EQ, filters, and effects to use live).

[nadroj]

When programming sounds: let me menu dive. Let me be as specific or get as deep as I want when making my setups. The less limitations the better (though sometimes limitations on an instrument forces you to look at a song differently, which can be a good thing).

 

When playing live: give me knobs, sliders and the rest. Let me change some of those settings I've set up on the spot, when needed. I find few things more frustrating on stage than not being able to sculpt a sound the way I want. Let me sweep that filter, let me boost that resonance. Let me pull out my drawbars, go crazy with effects and pitch bend all I want.

 

If a keyboard (or rig) lets me do both of those things, I'm generally happy.

[Al Quinn]

I like having knobs, buttons, and sliders. These physical controls are particularity welcome for live performance but also useful in the studio. Menu diving at home is OK but it takes me awhile with a new board before I can visualize where things are in the menu structure.

[AnotherScott]

When programming sounds: let me menu dive. Let me be as specific or get as deep as I want when making my setups. The less limitations the better (though sometimes limitations on an instrument forces you to look at a song differently, which can be a good thing).

And that brings us to the advantage of "one of each." IF I can get close to the sound (or combination of sounds) I want on a Nord Stage 3, that will probably be the fastest way for me to do it, and in fact I can probably get the majority of sounds I need out of it. But for the things it can't quite do, a deeper menu-based board can remove tons of limitations. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, the NS3 is a weaker than average board for patch recall, so you gain in one area and trade off in another. You could address that with an iPhone/iPad, but there's no great place to put one, esp. on the 73. (Unless maybe you add the music stand that you can put on the later version.)

 

I was thinking about how would something like audio boards do with multiple layers. The board at the church I worked at had a sea of knobs and faders that were generic channel strips because the board had more channels than the number of physical knobs and faders. Then a set of buttons to quickly change layers. But it did have tiny electronic labels so we could tell which channel on what layer we were on...Seems like workstation keyboard are like this a bit but I think it could be taken further. You think something like this would be workable or too confusing. Keyboardist have to make changes faster than mixing FOH.

Hypocrisy Disclaimer: I just pulled the trigger on a relatively-knobby PC4, so I may end up wildly pro-knob in a month.

There is a kind of "middle ground" here... There are what we normally think of as knobby boards, with lots of controls that are dedicated to particular functions, which are grouped/sized/shaped/labeled appropriately; there are the primarily menu oriented boards that are likely to have, say, 2 to 6 assignable/definable generic controls; but there are also boards with tons of assignable/definable controls, like the PC4, which have the depth of a menu-based board, but--with some effort on the part of the user--could also provide a decent amount of the benefit of a knobby board, by standardizing one's usual "workspace" and saved patches alike on a particular definition of the (in the case of the PC4) 18 knobs/sliders plus buttons; or from a selection of just 2 or 3 commonly used control definitions. As the tech gets more cost-effective, maybe we'll see more boards like this where each knob/slider/button has its own OLED display that always clearly indicates what function has been assigned to it. Though the PC4-7 does get part way there between the combination of the existing silkscreened labels, and some amount of space where one could attach a print-out.

 

I like what Roland has done with the Fantom, with a dedicated knobby synth section, along side a battery of definable controls on the left, plus the multifunction knobs on the center which are always labeled by the screen immediately above.

[nadroj]

When programming sounds: let me menu dive. Let me be as specific or get as deep as I want when making my setups. The less limitations the better (though sometimes limitations on an instrument forces you to look at a song differently, which can be a good thing).

And that brings us to the advantage of "one of each." IF I can get close to the sound (or combination of sounds) I want on a Nord Stage 3, that will probably be the fastest way for me to do it, and in fact I can probably get the majority of sounds I need out of it. But for the things it can't quite do, a deeper menu-based board can remove tons of limitations. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, the NS3 is a weaker than average board for patch recall, so you gain in one area and trade off in another. You could address that with an iPhone/iPad, but there's no great place to put one, esp. on the 73. (Unless maybe you add the music stand that you can put on the later version.)

 

I was thinking about how would something like audio boards do with multiple layers. The board at the church I worked at had a sea of knobs and faders that were generic channel strips because the board had more channels than the number of physical knobs and faders. Then a set of buttons to quickly change layers. But it did have tiny electronic labels so we could tell which channel on what layer we were on...Seems like workstation keyboard are like this a bit but I think it could be taken further. You think something like this would be workable or too confusing. Keyboardist have to make changes faster than mixing FOH.

Hypocrisy Disclaimer: I just pulled the trigger on a relatively-knobby PC4, so I may end up wildly pro-knob in a month.

There is a kind of "middle ground" here... There are what we normally think of as knobby boards, with lots of controls that are dedicated to particular functions, which are grouped/sized/shaped/labeled appropriately; there are the primarily menu oriented boards that are likely to have, say, 2 to 6 assignable/definable generic controls; but there are also boards with tons of assignable/definable controls, like the PC4, which have the depth of a menu-based board, but--with some effort on the part of the user--could also provide a decent amount of the benefit of a knobby board, by standardizing one's usual "workspace" and saved patches alike on a particular definition of the (in the case of the PC4) 18 knobs/sliders plus buttons; or from a selection of just 2 or 3 commonly used control definitions. As the tech gets more cost-effective, maybe we'll see more boards like this where each knob/slider/button has its own OLED display that always clearly indicates what function has been assigned to it. Though the PC4-7 does get part way there between the combination of the existing silkscreened labels, and some amount of space where one could attach a print-out.

 

I like what Roland has done with the Fantom, with a dedicated knobby synth section, along side a battery of definable controls on the left, plus the multifunction knobs on the center which are always labeled by the screen immediately above.

 

Your point about the PC4 is a good one. I saw that Barb&Co have made a sound collection that assigned the knobs and faders of the PC4 to key synth parameters - it basically meant the PC4 turned into an easy to use, knobby synth. Chris M also did a demo on Kraft where the various real time controls were set up like a Nord, with the sliders providing amount and the knobs controlling the depth of the desired effects. With a bit of homework, most common menu-driven keyboards with front panel controls (PC4, Forte, MODX, Montage, Fantom, Kronos, etc) can be turned into a knobby-esque synth, which to me gives the best of both worlds.

[rod76]

I still like to use stuff with 16x2 displays...

 

As long as it's easy to go back and forth through the parameters and with fast scrolling data knob.

 

larger screens with soft buttons and big dials never bothered me but generally don't like to have too much information to read at once in different sized characters.

 

At least not for a musical instrument.

 

 

Never had a touch-screen and haven't used knobby synths in a long time.

[mauriziodececco]

I am a knob lover, for sure.

 

In studio work, i am pretty satisfied working on on-screen knobs and controls; but i clearly prefer the user interface of something like Pigments or Massive X then Falcon (that i love for its sound and possibilities, but hate for UI, at least when i run it full screen on my 32" monitor).

 

My gigging experience is with mostly improvised music: in that context, i want to be able to improvise with the sound; that's why i use a Nord Electro and i have an OB6.

 

But, i am not happy with the state of the knobby world: as of today, when you play something just as complex as a OB6, unless you keep the manual button pressed, it is very hard to know what will happens when you touch a knob, unless you really *know* the current patch in depth, because you do not have an idea of the various parameter value; if you are good, and within certain limits, you know by ears, but not completely.

 

So, to be really in conditions to improvise with a knobby machine with presets you would need more information shown to you, like the good old Nord Lead 3 interface, a huge screen, or in some other way.

At the end, a computer screen ends up better for improvisation; i'll see this, i am buying a Novation SL mk3 to try to setup a hyper light laptop only rig for my ambient jazz group, i'll let you know.

 

One last thing about Nord: yes, knobby is good. Shift button, no good. If i decide to switch one of the NE effect to another source (Rotary to epiano instead of organ), i need two hands, i cannot do it while playing; this happens to me to every rehearsal.

 

Maurizio

[AnotherScott]

So, to be really in conditions to improvise with a knobby machine with presets you would need more information shown to you, like the good old Nord Lead 3 interface,

Yes, this is why the Nord Lead 3 is on my short list of boards I expect to never sell. Not unless maybe they (or some other company) comes out with something with a comparable design. It's unbeatable.

[area51recording]

When I got my first synth, a Korg Polysix (to me it was like a poor man's Prophet 5) I really got into sitting at home with it and twisting the knobs. When I came up with something really cool I just hit the save button, and just like that I had a new sound to take to the gig that night. Eventually I had to unload it (something went screwball with the chips and even after repair after repair it wouldn't stay in tune) and my subsequent keyboards have all had menu diving capabilities only.....I really miss those days.....I dig having some tactile control of my Electro 3, but it's not the same thing, obviously....