Physical modeling from a real piano

[Radagast]

I have a Line 6 Variax modeling guitar. It models different string instruments in real time using real guitar strings. Could this be applied to a real piano? For instance, something like an old Yamaha CP80 or CP70 that had real strings could be the starting point. The next question is: SHOULD it be done? Is it possible to model different kinds of pianos in real time like LIne 6 does with the Variax guitar lineup? Or are digital pianos so good that there isn"t a real need, or market, for a real piano that could model different pianos in real time? Or would a modeling real piano be the ultimate in keyboard action for a pianist?

[ElmerJFudd]

There are several software developers that model acoustic and electric pianos that you can play from any controller keyboard. Pianoteq, Lounge Lizard, GSi, Physis Piano, etc.

 

Can you plug a CP-80 or Rhodes into a modeling amp, sure I bet it sounds great. You can also mic an acoustic piano and run it into a modeling amp. There is also software that tracks pitch to midi -from guitar or, Sax, piano etc. which you can use to trigger Synths and Samples.

 

There"s also silent system acoustic pianos that track midi and stop the strings from being hit. And there"s also hybrid pianos that have the action of an acoustic piano but trigger samples through elaborate speaker systems.

 

I think your inclination is right. There"s so many options for keyboard players to sound like whatever they want from all variety of instrument types. An acoustic piano is never easy to carry around, so lighter cheaper midi instruments and even electro mechanicals fill this gap. Am I understanding your intent?

[Dr Mike Metlay]

I have a Line 6 Variax modeling guitar. It models different string instruments in real time using real guitar strings. Could this be applied to a real piano? For instance, something like an old Yamaha CP80 or CP70 that had real strings could be the starting point. The next question is: SHOULD it be done? Is it possible to model different kinds of pianos in real time like LIne 6 does with the Variax guitar lineup? Or are digital pianos so good that there isn"t a real need, or market, for a real piano that could model different pianos in real time? Or would a modeling real piano be the ultimate in keyboard action for a pianist?

To me, your comparison doesn't make practical sense because of where you are starting from. An electric guitar that's not plugged in makes practically no sound, so a Variax model coming out of the amp overwhelms the sound of the guitar itself. A real piano with real strings and hammers is going to make sound when you play it.

 

Today, to get the effect you're looking for, you would hook up a controller with a really good piano action to a modeled piano like Pianoteq (which BTW comes with a free Yamaha CP-80 model that's realistic enough to remind me of why I don't miss playing out with a CP-80). Yamaha and others do make grand pianos with MIDI output, but those are primarily for recording performance nuances for replay rather than for supplementing or replacing the sound of the piano itself.

 

As Mr. Fudd said above, I'd like to know if I am missing your intent here.

[Docbop]

My best friend was a Variax fanatic and gigged with on for years, so I've heard them a lot his and going with him to tryout newer models. To me they do a good job of imitating Bright sounding guitar like Tele's, Strat's and other mainly single coil guitars. They fall way short when trying to model fuller sounding guitars like Les Pauls, Jazz box, and similar guitars. Now guitars don't have anywhere near the range of a keyboard I doubt a Variax approach would be even in sound over the full range.

[GovernorSilver]

Sounds to me he wants a piano that he can instantly transform, sonically, into a CP-70, Wurly, Clavinet, or Rhodes by selecting different presets. And of course he probably wants models of various grand pianos (Bosendorfer, Fazioli, etc.) too.

 

I agree with good Dr. Mike - I just don't see how this would work in the real world. If you have a real piano in the first place, the real piano sound would clash with the sound of whatever Variax-like model you're trying to run it through.

 

It would be like trying to use Variax tech with an acoustic guitar instead of a solidbody electric guitar as your sound source. Variax guitar tech works best with solidbody electric guitars because the volume level of the real strings can be pretty quiet in relation to the modeled strings. With a semi-hollow/hollow electric guitar and acoustic guitar, the real strings are loud enough, acoustically, to clash with the modeled strings.

[timwat]

What might work for Radagast's premise:

 

A controller with a beautiful, wood grand piano action, where the hammers strike very short strings, with no soundboard or typical piano case. So you're starting with the percussive attack of hammer striking a real string, and then the modeling engine can use the pitch and attack transients to do the rest of its modeling work for timbre, overtones, transposition etc.

[ElmerJFudd]

I"d say a hybrid piano like Yamaha N series (for the action and midi) or a Silent Piano like a U1 or K300 ATX (real strings and harp that can be disengaged from the action) then midi to a laptop with Pianoteq -> an s nice PA Speaker. The N3 also has aux inputs I believe if you want to skip the need for external amplification.

[stoken6]

To do what you're trying to do ("remodel" a piano) requires a sound source - but no acoustic tone. Just like an electric guitar. Yamaha CP, clav, Rhodes, Wurly or Valente - that kind of thing.

 

From that point you could probably make an attempt to model various tones - I don't know how successful it would be. However you may well preserve the feeling of "real strings" (or tines, or reeds, whatever).

 

In practice I don't think there's a demand. Today's digitals are so good at reproducing these classic sounds that this kind of modelling is probably superfluous. Interesting theoretical experiment, though...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ElmerJFudd]

[video:youtube]

 

The variax acoustic resonance, like most solid body electric guitars, is quiet enough to be unnoticeable when played through an amplifier. In this way, a Rhodes or Wurly being pitch and volume tracked to trigger Pianoteq is more viable than an acoustic piano doing the same because the body of the instrument is too loud to go un-noticed. However key and velocity tracking to MIDI makes needing to pitch and volume track an acoustic keyboard instrument unnecessary in most cases I can think of. They"ve already done midi kits for acoustic pianos, Rhodes, etc.

[GovernorSilver]

The variax acoustic resonance, like most solid body electric guitars, is quiet enough to be unnoticeable when played through an amplifier. In this way, a Rhodes or Wurly being pitch and volume tracked to trigger Pianoteq is more viable than an acoustic piano doing the same because the body of the instrument is too loud to go un-noticed. However key and velocity tracking to MIDI makes needing to pitch and volume track an acoustic keyboard instrument unnecessary in most cases I can think of. They"ve already done midi kits for acoustic pianos, Rhodes, etc.

 

I should point out that MIDI is not part of the Variax technology. Variax is built into the guitar itself, with the idea that you just bring that one guitar to the gig and plug a standard 1/4" cable into it. No external gear required to access all those modeled guitars.

 

There is a VDI output but it's only intended for use with the Workbench editing software or connection to certain Line 6 audio processors such as the Helix series. The Helix units for example can store Variax settings as part of a preset and load them onto the guitar.

 

https://adamharkus.com/line-6-variax-still-thinking-about-buying-one/

[ElmerJFudd]

Ya, figured as much. So their software takes the audio from the pickups and elicits the same pitch and volume with a new timbre. The alternate tunings is fascinating. They must be capturing audio uniquely from each string via the pickup system to calculate the transposition of pitch only for that string. It"s brilliant.

 

Similar pitch and volume tracking exists in software without whatever custom hardware they"ve built for the variax. As opposed to using a midi pickup. I"m sure they do some tweaking to get it very accurate for input from a guitar - but I have to assume they can do the same from a microphone and use a piano or flute or what have you to either trigger a modeled timbre or convert to midi to trigger samples, synths, whatever.

 

[video:youtube]

[GovernorSilver]

Ya, figured as much. So their software takes the audio from the pickups and elicits the same pitch and volume with a new timbre. The alternate tunings is fascinating. They must be capturing audio uniquely from each string via the pickup system to calculate the transposition of pitch only for that string. It"s brilliant.

 

Similar pitch and volume tracking exists in software without whatever custom hardware they"ve built for the variax. As opposed to using a midi pickup. I"m sure they do some tweaking to get it very accurate for input from a guitar - but I have to assume they can do the same from a microphone and use a piano or flute or what have you to either trigger a modeled timbre or convert to midi to trigger samples, synths, whatever.

 

 

Yes, the idea is to run one signal per string into some kind of DSP which runs physical modeling software to transform the sound into the desired model.

 

Roland probably did it first with the VG-8. Line 6 caught on to the idea soon after, but bet on customers being more interested in modeled guitars that you can dial up on one guitar, than anything else. Including MIDI. Line 6 bet that customers would not want an extra box to lug with the guitar and thus they carved a niche for themselves.

 

Roland still makes products to compete against Variax, but if you go the Roland route, you still have to buy the separate unit to go with the guitar. Except you can use the unit with any guitar, as opposed to a Variax Guitar.

 

In the electric violin space, we have IR loaders like the VSound2, Tone Dexter, and Fishman Aura pedals. There is is enough demand from electric violinists for products like this pedal to be successful. Typical customer is a violinist who has to play electric because the band is just too loud for an acoustic violin to be used without feedback... but still wants the acoustic violin sound. Pedals like the VSound2 don't require special cables or pickups. I have a Line 6 HX Stomp XL myself - it can also load IRs and works well enough for me as an alternative to VSound2.

 

MIDI conversion is not really worth the trouble when Variax and IR loaders work so well for their intended purposes.

 

I have no idea what kind of research/effort has been done for piano IRs. I'm guessing this is a much more challenging idea to implement than violin IRs. I haven't heard of anything happening in the piano space other than some variation of reverb IR. I think timtam's idea of a Hohner Pianet type instrument with poor unplugged volume combined with IR loader might work - but the question remains whether this idea is any better than just getting a high quality keyboard with high quality multi-sampled pianos.

 

Also no idea on what's going on with flute IRs or if there's even a real demand for such a thing. I can report I've tried running guitar with the HX Stomp preset that has a violin IR loaded - it sure doesn't make a guitar sound like an acoustic violin. A guitar still sounds like a guitar... The violin IR preset only works for that purpose with my electric violin. As useful as IR loading tech can be, it's not magic.

[ElmerJFudd]

If someone were to build a piano with no sound board and solid case, I think the strings on the harp alone are just too loud. I may be wrong. But yes, un-amplified tines or reeds might be a better starting point. Can their timbre be shifted to sound like a variety of acoustic and other electric pianos? I don"t know - maybe. Other electric pianos seems most feasible.

 

But with velocity sensors on each key - a midi controller or piano or Rhodes can play any sample library, analog and digital synths, and physical modeling engines. So I"m not seeing a market for a variax piano.

[Radagast]

To me, your comparison doesn't make practical sense because of where you are starting from. An electric guitar that's not plugged in makes practically no sound, so a Variax model coming out of the amp overwhelms the sound of the guitar itself. A real piano with real strings and hammers is going to make sound when you play it.

 

 

Sounds to me he wants a piano that he can instantly transform, sonically, into a CP-70, Wurly, Clavinet, or Rhodes by selecting different presets. And of course he probably wants models of various grand pianos (Bosendorfer, Fazioli, etc.) too.

 

I agree with good Dr. Mike - I just don't see how this would work in the real world. If you have a real piano in the first place, the real piano sound would clash with the sound of whatever Variax-like model you're trying to run it through.

 

It would be like trying to use Variax tech with an acoustic guitar instead of a solidbody electric guitar as your sound source. Variax guitar tech works best with solidbody electric guitars because the volume level of the real strings can be pretty quiet in relation to the modeled strings. With a semi-hollow/hollow electric guitar and acoustic guitar, the real strings are loud enough, acoustically, to clash with the modeled strings.

 

 

An acoustic piano gets its volume from the soundboard. Without the soundboard, a piano would be like a solid body guitar in volume. My theoretical 'piano' would not have a soundboard, just the strings, hammers, etc. The 'soundboard' would come from the modeling . The modeled soundboards would give the different piano sounds. Playing it through an amp would cover up the real strings that have no soundboard to amplify it.

[cphollis]

This brings to mind the Roland V Piano, which was one of the earliest modeled pianos. It's great technology. I remember playing one on headphones in a music store. Back when there were music stores that stocked such wonderful beasts.

 

I loved the ability to create entirely new pianos. The one thing I couldn't figure out is how to get that warm, rich and enveloping acoustic piano sound. Imagine a romantic upright sitting in a parlor as an extreme example. Everything I tried ended up sounding crystal clear and digital. Not what I was going for.

 

The Variax approach is interesting for modeling other stringed instruments that are played like a guitar. It wouldn't work well for other classes of instruments.

[Radagast]

This brings to mind the Roland V Piano, which was one of the earliest modeled pianos. It's great technology. I remember playing one on headphones in a music store. Back when there were music stores that stocked such wonderful beasts.

 

I loved the ability to create entirely new pianos. The one thing I couldn't figure out is how to get that warm, rich and enveloping acoustic piano sound. Imagine a romantic upright sitting in a parlor as an extreme example. Everything I tried ended up sounding crystal clear and digital. Not what I was going for.

 

The Variax approach is interesting for modeling other stringed instruments that are played like a guitar. It wouldn't work well for other classes of instruments.

 

There are many different types of physical modeling algorithms out there. Variax doesn"t have them all.

[ElmerJFudd]

I bet a Klavins Una Corda is a viable candidate for variax tech.

 

One string per note/key. Considerably smaller instrument. Remove the sound board and I bet it"s softer than a traditional piano with massive 230 string harp in a big box.

 

[video:youtube]

[stoken6]

I'd never heard of that Klavins Una Corda - it's a rather nice tone. It's the sort of thing I can see Nord sampling for their library - they seem to be a sucker for "character" pianos.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ElmerJFudd]

Native Instruments has a sample library of it. There may be a few others.

 

NI Una Corda

[cphollis]

I'd never heard of that Klavins Una Corda - it's a rather nice tone. It's the sort of thing I can see Nord sampling for their library - they seem to be a sucker for "character" pianos.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Oh yes, I could use this one ...