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21 Roland Personal Model Expansions (Fantom, JupiterX) and 2


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Thanks to numerous tests and using the documentation on the implementation of Fantom's MIDI System Exclusive messages, I was able to obtain two results that greatly expand the synthesis possibilities of the currently existing MODEL EXPANSIONS. In detail, I managed to:

- create Personal Model Expansions in which I modified the structure of the existing ones by adding new features and, in some cases, increasing the polyphony up to double it.They are totally new synths.

- convert any sound of any Model Expansions (except, for now ð of the JD800) into the corresponding Zen-Core tone: this tone will sound identical, it will be editable and obviously can be played on any Zen-Core Hardware (Ax-Edge, Rd-88, MC-101, MC-107 and MV-1 included), on the Zenology software and on the ZenBeat APP (ZC1 instrumets).

Here are some examples:

- Personal Model Juno 106 with detuned SAW and SQR

- Personal Model Juno 106 with SuperSaw oscillator instead of Noise

- Personal Model Juno 106 with 3 Saw oscillators, two detuned (-6 +6 Cent) and one with PWM

- Personal Model JX-8P with additional SuperSaw oscillator (also in an unfiltered version)

- Personal Model JX-8P with additional stereo Strings PCM oscillator

- Personal Model JX-8P with additional oscillator with PCM stereo sample Syn Vox1 (the classic sound of the Fairlight SARRAR)

- Personal Model SH-101 with an Alpha Juno oscillator (instead of the SQR) and equipped with PWM

- Personal Model Juno 106 with only OSC SAW and SQR (also in detuned version) and polyphony that goes from 14 to 28 voices

- Personal Model JX-8P with 28 voices polyphony (eliminated the background noise oscillator which reduces the polyphony of the instrument from 28 to 19 voices)

 

Info and Free download of the sounds on my site

 

Roland Personal Models Expansions

A video explaining what can be obtained at the link

 

[video:youtube]

 

http://www.benis.it/cm/articoli/Img_fantom/model2.png

 

Free Editor...Work in progress

http://www.benis.it/varie/Editor.png

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Does this mean that the model expansions are not expansions at all? Just skins on the Zen-Core engine?

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Gear: NS2 + JUNO-G. KingKORG. SP6 at church.

 

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Does this mean that the model expansions are not expansions at all? Just skins on the Zen-Core engine?

It is very interesting, and some of this may be semantics (i.e. I don't have a problem calling a new "skin" that provides access to different parameters--or parameters specifically tweaked/arranged to acheive certain results--an expansion). I guess it speaks to the depth of what the Zen-Core engine is capable of, and it is really intriguing that you can add these sounds to an AX-Edge or RD-88, even if you need a Fantom/Jupiter X or Zenology account to actually create the sounds in the first place.

 

This also reminds me of this interesting review from SOS where the author contrasted the results of the ACB hardware modeling (used in the System 8 and Boutiques) and the ABM behavior modeling of these newer products, where ACB emulates the old circuitry, while ABM we now see seems to be more specifically a layer of Zen-Core programming designed to mimic the old sounds/behaviors. This is consistent with another interesting point in that article, that the XV-5080 sound set in the Jupiter (and presumably Fantom/Edge/RD88 etc.) doesn't actually use the XV-5080's wave (sample) set, but rather seems to be approximating the patches using the standard Zen-Core waves and available programming parameters. This approach seems to go back to the Fantom S/X, where you could optionally load in the older XV-5080 sound set, but they were sometimes approximated with different waves because these Fantoms did not include all the original samples from the XV-5080. (I believe that the XV-5080 expansions available for the old-Fantoms-derived Juno DS work the same way.)

 

Another interesting (albeit opinionated) article about the move from ACB to ABM is at https://cdm.link/2019/11/roland-analog-remakes-statement/

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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So if someone can reverse engineer this and create new models why have Roland still not released the Model Expansions for the RD88, MC and AX Edge? The Fantom got these updates in February. I can"t try these out because I don"t have the necessary hardware or software. Anyone out there with an RD88 willing to give it a go?

 

 

https://www.roland.com/uk/support/by_product/rc_exz008_vintage_keys/support_documents/319ed642-8e1d-4b0b-a6ec-5d730f30cd8d/#zenology_ME

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So if someone can reverse engineer this and create new models why have Roland still not released the Model Expansions for the RD88, MC and AX Edge?

I can kind of see what it could be seen as incongruous to release something like a Jupiter 8 Model Expansion for the AX-Edge or RD-88... in a way, the whole point of having a virtual Jupiter 8 is to be able to create/edit sounds and tweak it, and these boards don't have the necessary controls or any kind of interface to do this. BUT... since you CAN create/edit Jupiter 8 sounds via Zenology, it would be nice if they officially supported the ability to then download those sounds into those keyboards, as it looks like this person has figured out how to do.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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What do you make of the entries in the table? Looks like Roland are going to release the expansions in some form. I"m sure I read somewhere that any Zen Core enabled instrument can run them though you won"t be able to edit them.. But you can do that in Zenology Pro and send the patch to the RD88. Same as the OP is doing.
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What do you make of the entries in the table?

 

?

 

Looks like Roland are going to release the expansions in some form.

 

I think I'm missing something.

 

I"m sure I read somewhere that any Zen Core enabled instrument can run them though you won"t be able to edit them.. But you can do that in Zenology Pro and send the patch to the RD88. Same as the OP is doing.

My understanding was that, "officially," the things you create in ZP can only be loaded into the RD88 if they don't use any expansions that do not exist (and are not available) for the RD88. But the OP is finding ways around that. The first I saw of this was a few weeks ago, when I posted #3094181 at https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3094181/re-yet-another-revisiting-thread-pc4-or#Post3094181

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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The "COMPATIBLE MODEL LIST INFORMATION" page has been updated over the last 12 months so I am hoping that there will be a firmware update for the RD88 that will allow Model Expansions to be installed. Might be being too optimistic but the wave expansions for the RD88 were 'enabled' with the 07/2020 update. The bottom 4 rows of the table imply it could happen at some point. I'm interested in the RD88 and these models would be a deal breaker.

2024.thumb.png.e4285370a7981c3714107a8e17f142b0.png

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Models and samples converted to .svz Zen-Core files (e.g. - the Roland Soundfont converter) will not work in the RD-88. Tones edited within the Zen-Core engine on hardware instruments and in Zenology will import fine. From conversations with Roland CS and others, I got a strong feeling that Roland will not be supporting the RD-88 to the extent of sample and model importing. But Zen-Core Tone exchange options make for a very flexible and powerful set of instruments. Have always thought that the RD-88 was a strong sounding 3-zone Zen-Core synth - in addition to its' stage piano capabilities. Some of the Scenes I discovered on the instrument (and a few I created) were fairly complex and had a lot of depth.

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

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So am I right In thinking the OP has created new models that will run on Jupiter X , Fantom and Zenology Pro but the patches could be imported into the RD88. So as long as you have a Roland subscription that includes Zenology Pro you will be able to generate and export these to the RD88?
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The "COMPATIBLE MODEL LIST INFORMATION" page has been updated over the last 12 months...The bottom 4 rows of the table imply it could happen at some point.

Ah. I wouldn't assume that empty boxes imply anything beyond their immediate purpose, to indicate that the capability does not exist. But one can always be surprised!

 

I got a strong feeling that Roland will not be supporting the RD-88 to the extent of sample and model importing.

That would be my guess. As I said earlier, I don't think they'd put the models (like Jupiter 8, etc.) in anything that provides no means by which to edit/manipulate those sounds... the best to be hoped for, based on this new info, is that they might permit lading such patches from the boards that do have that function (or Zenology). Though maybe as this "third party" approach solidifies, Roland support for such file loading would be preety much moot anyway. As for samples, the only known rewritable sample memory in the RD is for the SRX-based expansions. If history is a guide, that will remain dedicated to that function. The FA is the same way... you can load wave expansions from axial, but you can't load your own keyboard-playable wave expansions. The Juno DS permits both, but with different dedicated memory allocations. You can load one downloadable wave expansion from axial, and you can also load keyboard-playable user samples. But each chunk of expansion memory is addressed separately. You can't use the wave expansion area instead for more user samples, nor can you use the user sample memory to load additional axial samples.

 

So am I right In thinking the OP has created new models that will run on Jupiter X , Fantom and Zenology Pro but the patches could be imported into the RD88. So as long as you have a Roland subscription that includes Zenology Pro you will be able to generate and export these to the RD88?
The description is not entirely clear, but it looks like he's not creating new models per se, but rather a way to create sounds using those models (on Jupiter X , Fantom and Zenology Pro), and yes, export those patches to the RD88.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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