OT: I just got the vaccine. Ask me anything.

[El Lobo]

Opinions differ I guess.

 

https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=242205

 

Let's see -

Cherry picking

Misrepresenting conclusions reached in legitimate studies

Misdirection

Well laid out obsfucation

Mischaracterization of trial data

I clicked on the link and only got part way into the text when it became obvious that the author misunderstands a lot of stuff and draws unwarranted conclusions from misunderstandings and misrepresentations. See: paranoid personality disorder.

[MathOfInsects]

Yeah, the shift lately from, 'I don"t understand this, therefore I should check with someone who does,' to 'I don"t understand this, therefore the entire enterprise must be a lie of some kind and I am the only one who recognizes it,' has been some dark mix of comical and depressing.

 

Everyone knows the only credible scientific analyses are those that use the greatest number of fonts and exclamation points.

[Stokely]

Not clicking that link because like all the snake-oil modern-age salesmen, that is the entire point--making money off people by preying on their sense of paranoia and "discovery of the truth". Conspiracy nonsense works because it provides a treasure map to the truth, and everyone can become Indiana Jones finding what "mainstream society" has missed (or is covering up). Most likely all these "influencers" don't believe one word of what they are peddling, they see a way to make a buck in the grand old tradition.

[MathOfInsects]

The other factor is that the "real" explanation for how, for example, an nRNA vaccine might work, is WAY more far-fetched than the ways people make up. It's far easier to believe that the needle we all see is injecting some technology we all know, even if it's for ridiculously contrived purposes, than that whatever's in the needle swishes around in the muscle of your arm until somehow it finds its way into the biochemical signal chain in between RNA and proteins and magically defeats some invisible and already suspect virus.

[seanl]

"A third of the new cases are people who have been fully vaccinated."

 

https://americanconservativemovement.com/2021/05/05/worlds-most-vaccinated-nation-locks-down-as-covid-cases-spike/

[seanl]

Opinions differ I guess.

 

https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=242205

 

Let's see -

Cherry picking

Misrepresenting conclusions reached in legitimate studies

Misdirection

Well laid out obsfucation

Mischaracterization of trial data

I clicked on the link and only got part way into the text when it became obvious that the author misunderstands a lot of stuff and draws unwarranted conclusions from misunderstandings and misrepresentations. See: paranoid personality disorder.

 

 

Would you care to put a finer point on your opinion? Please point out the "misunderstanding" of " a lot of points" to educate us. Thank you.

[MathOfInsects]

Ah, yes, that great scientific journal "americanconservativemovement.com."

 

It always amazes me that people who are not able to put their faith in the work of decades of the world's best-trained scientists and specialists, can still somehow find it in them to trust the word of some rando with an internet connection as gospel. Which is it--do you value informed analysis, or not? And if so, how did you decide to hitch your wagon to that of the least qualified person in the room? Bad judgment? Wishful thinking? Denial? Naivete?

[El Lobo]

Would you care to put a finer point on your opinion? Please point out the "misunderstanding" of " a lot of points" to educate us. Thank you.

No. I don't waste my time anymore in these pointless internet arguments. Suffice it to say that the author of that piece doesn't even understand how this new RNA type of vaccine works. And that linked article from the American Conservative Movement is just plain laughable. I'm stating my opinions. If you don't agree, I don't care. I'm not going to waste my time explaining. I've said my piece, now I'm going to go practice the tunes for this weekend's gig.

[ksoper]

"A third of the new cases are people who have been fully vaccinated."

 

https://americanconservativemovement.com/2021/05/05/worlds-most-vaccinated-nation-locks-down-as-covid-cases-spike/

 

Seanl, while I appreciate your zeal, linking an article that cites Infowars probably won't get you very far around here. But as long as we're throwing percentages around, I lost 10% of my friends to this virus.

[Mighty Motif Max]

FWIW my dad works in a clinical environment as a pharmacist. Last week a coworker of his whose teenage son was really sick with COVID came in to work saying that since she was fully vaccinated she could "do whatever the hell she wanted" and said that if anything happened it was the fault of other people for not getting vaccinated yet (keep in mind my dad's sister is the one who has an ongoing severe reaction to the Pfizer vaccine and the Moderna shares all but three ingredients and we don't know which one caused my aunt's problem, so my dad is stuck until AstraZeneca gets approved over here, like I am). Anyways, her boss was also fully vaccinated and was working with her for the next few days. Guess what? The coworker and her boss both came down with severe COVID-19 cases within four days of working together. They were both fully vaccinated, and the coworker's kid was very ill from COVID the day she came in to work. Naturally, my dad is quite worried now but so far he's been okay.

 

My point is that you can't just go and think you can do whatever the heck you want just because you're vaccinated. It doesn't work that way. We don't know everything about how these current vaccines will work or continue to work. It's not a free for all, and you sure as heck shouldn't be doing it at the expense of other people! The way the vaccine initiative is being presented is unethical.

[jazzpiano88]

I think the simplest claimed statistic kind of explains everything that has played out. That is, ~80% of people have some sort of natural immunity and the remaining 20% have a fairly significant mortality rate based on comorbidities and age.

If this is true it can explain all of the squirrely anecdotes about how it gets transmitted and who it affects.

[seanl]

Not clicking that link because like all the snake-oil modern-age salesmen, that is the entire point--making money off people by preying on their sense of paranoia and "discovery of the truth". Conspiracy nonsense works because it provides a treasure map to the truth, and everyone can become Indiana Jones finding what "mainstream society" has missed (or is covering up). Most likely all these "influencers" don't believe one word of what they are peddling, they see a way to make a buck in the grand old tradition.

 

 

 

"Not clicking on that link....."

 

He provides factual foot notes and sub links.

[ksoper]

Ok, then. Thanks to all who accepted the science and distanced, masked, washed hands, and got vaccinated.

 

I'm out.

[Adan]

Science progresses through a process whereby the most experienced and qualified people constantly and systematically review and comment on the work of other experienced and qualified people. Also known as "peer review." The difference between that and anybody with an internet connection posting whatever pops into their head is immeasurable.

[Melving]

Re: Seychelles and "A third of the new cases are people who have been fully vaccinated."

 

"By April 12, 59% of the doses administered were Sinopharm vaccines and the rest were Covishield, a version of AstraZeneca Plc"s shot made under license in India."

- from the Bloomberg article referenced

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-04/world-s-most-vaccinated-nation-reintroduces-curbs-as-cases-surge

 

Note that at least here in the USA, we don't use either of those vaccines. There's a reason...

 

Re: https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=242205

OK - meatpacking incident - that's at 10 degrees celsius. Viral survival is better. It is a risk.

 

Re: https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=242205 - "You would have been better off, by far, taking the same infection straight up front"

https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

[known] Covid case fatality rate 2-6% in the USA, obviously higher when older people were infected

 

Covid after vaccines in USA

https://www.biospace.com/article/covid-19-infection-after-vaccine-is-rare-but-possible-cdc-says/

77 million vaccines at that time, 74 deaths from covid after vaccine. You calculate and choose.

1 in a million death rate after vaccine, or 2-6 in 100 death rate without.

 

Beyond all this, if you have to write your article in alternating bold, italics, underlining, and every other 1990's web page tactic known to humankind, there is an issue.

 

I can't claim to have spent a lot of time researching these things, but these are my initial findings. Open to factual correction.

[Stokely]

I wouldn't get my scientific news from anything with "american conservative" in the title, and neither would I expect to get good info from the meanderings of "liberal tree-hugger thoughts". There are plenty of non-political scientific sources out there. Of course, when they offer different thoughts then they are labelled partisan, but that's because people come at issues with pre-conceived beliefs that they are trying to prove. Opinions will still differ because science is fluid and interpretations are subjective, best you can do is seek multiple sources of info that, as far as you can tell, don't have an agenda other than "science".

 

As far as vaccinated people acting invincible...yeah...I still have no intention of eating indoors, I pick store hours that aren't busy if I go in at all. And wear a mask, though our governor seems on a jihad against them. I'm hoping that businesses still will require them, and I give my business to those that are at the least trying to get people to adhere to the policy. I've yet to see anyplace that actually stops maskless people from going in so that might be too much to hope for. It's going to get interesting once the Pfizer and other vaccines are actually approved by the FDA (beyond emergency status)--at that point, many more Universities and employers may require vaccination. This is well-trodden ground legally, vaccines for some things have been required for a long time. Guessing I'll lose a couple co-workers if my employer does that, they are quite anti-vax

[Mighty Motif Max]

...It's going to get interesting once the Pfizer and other vaccines are actually approved by the FDA (beyond emergency status)--at that point, many more Universities and employers may require vaccination. This is well-trodden ground legally, vaccines for some things have been required for a long time. Guessing I'll lose a couple co-workers if my employer does that, they are quite anti-vax

 

That's going to be 2023 I believe, so by then hopefully any "kinks" will be figured out and people who are more hesitant might be more willing (particularly since that gives two years of usage to determine some side effects if any etc).

[Markay]

 

Yesterday Aus entered into a travel bubble with NZ. No need for 14 day hotel quarantine at your expense on arrival in each country.

 

Today NZ reports a fully vaccinated airport worker tested positive. They worked in an area of the airport that handled returning NZ citizens from outside the bubble.

 

Now we get to the next step in understanding what vaccination means.

 

Seems that it eliminates the chance of death, minimises the impact of Covid whilst infected, but does it eliminate the chance of infecting others?

 

It may depend upon which vaccine you get. The Pfizer vaccine has been shown to be 97% effective against asymptomatic spread.

 

https://khn.org/morning-breakout/pfizer-shot-shown-to-be-extremely-effective-against-asymptomatic-covid/#:~:text=Mar%2012%202021-,Pfizer%20Shot%20Shown%20To%20Be%20Extremely%20Effective%20Against%20Asymptomatic%20Covid,according%20to%20real%2Dworld%20data.

 

That's pretty good. Don't know whether the others can match it or not.

 

Cases in Oregon have been rising dramatically recently. Governor Kate is gonna whack us pretty good sometime this week - just as restaurants and clubs have finally been able to get their heads above water.

 

Ugh.

 

According to data from NSW Health"s weekly COVID-19 surveillance report, between April 10 and May 1, six people in quarantine who reported being fully vaccinated were among the 150 overseas cases recorded. One had received a one-shot vaccine, such as Johnson & Johnson, and the remaining cases had received both doses of a two-shot vaccine, such as Pfizer, AstraZeneca or Moderna.

 

Well seems we are getting closer to the answer here. Seems those who have been vaccinated can still be asymptomatic carriers and present a risk to those who have not been vaccinated. Not sure what the value is of a vaccination passport.

[Stokely]

...It's going to get interesting once the Pfizer and other vaccines are actually approved by the FDA (beyond emergency status)--at that point, many more Universities and employers may require vaccination. This is well-trodden ground legally, vaccines for some things have been required for a long time. Guessing I'll lose a couple co-workers if my employer does that, they are quite anti-vax

 

That's going to be 2023 I believe, so by then hopefully any "kinks" will be figured out and people who are more hesitant might be more willing (particularly since that gives two years of usage to determine some side effects if any etc).

 

 

Pfizer has just filed for approval, I was under the impression that the FDA may not take that long to approve (or not). They need at least six months of data for the vaccine(s) in use, and they have it.

 

Edit: an ABC article I just read said it will "likely be several months" for the FDA to review and make a decision. That's longer than I had thought.

 

I'd like to think that people would actually feel less "hesitant", but hearing some of the wacky reasons people aren't getting it now doesn't fill me with hope that actual data would influence them.

[MathOfInsects]

I'm not a fan of legislating morality, but I do think it will take some legislative coercion to close the final gap. Want to come to school? No problem. You'll need to include COVID-19 among your updated vaccinations. That won't address the adult issue, but will help things nudge toward eradication going forward.

[Docbop]

I'm not a fan of legislating morality, but I do think it will take some legislative coercion to close the final gap. Want to come to school? No problem. You'll need to include COVID-19 among your updated vaccinations. That won't address the adult issue, but will help things nudge toward eradication going forward.

 

I think if it get expanded to airline and other forms of travel, major concerts and sporting events, and so on then more people will get vaccinated so they can get back to "normal". I'm already seeing people that were part of the anti-vac, anti-mask, don't distance, that are started to get vaccinated. I even know families where the husband and wife both were anti-vac and one of them went and got vaccinated and not telling their spouse. Usually the one that has to go out into the public to work or shop all the time.

 

I think by end of summer probably only the radical conspiracy types will be the one not vaccinated. People are slowly started to take the attitude it's better to be safe than sorry.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

I'm not a fan of legislating morality, but I do think it will take some legislative coercion to close the final gap. Want to come to school? No problem. You'll need to include COVID-19 among your updated vaccinations. That won't address the adult issue, but will help things nudge toward eradication going forward.

 

I think if it get expanded to airline and other forms of travel, major concerts and sporting events, and so on then more people will get vaccinated so they can get back to "normal". I'm already seeing people that were part of the anti-vac, anti-mask, don't distance, that are started to get vaccinated. I even know families where the husband and wife both were anti-vac and one of them went and got vaccinated and not telling their spouse. Usually the one that has to go out into the public to work or shop all the time.

 

I think by end of summer probably only the radical conspiracy types will be the one not vaccinated. People are slowly started to take the attitude it's better to be safe than sorry.

Gives me some hope for some family members quite close to me in the longtime antivax camp (before it was "cool," haha). Suffice to say I've lived that life and am glad to have extricated myself and observe facts and evidence. My wife and I are tremendously relieved to be fully vaccinated but are carefully following the CDC guidelines for safety -- it's been clear from day one that while these vaccines are very good, no vaccine is 100% effective, and there is still data to be gathered about just how easy it is to spread the virus after vaccination. Sure would be easier if everyone in my family who wanted to spend time together this summer took that as "we should do it too" instead of "why bother if you can still get sick." It's been well established that herd immunity against a disease can only be achieved through vaccination, and every shot counts as far as halting the spread and evolution of the virus. The effect is exponential -- the increased protection of everyone in a community hte more people are vaccinated, and the risk to everyone for each person not protected by the vaccine. The conspiracy theories about this lifesaving medicine are baffling to me. We're underwater and someone is throwing us a life preserver. How long do you think you can tread water?

[MathOfInsects]

Depends. Who really knows what the long-term effects of having been saved from death by a life preserver are...?

[Moonglow]

Covid after vaccines in USA

https://www.biospace.com/article/covid-19-infection-after-vaccine-is-rare-but-possible-cdc-says/

77 million vaccines at that time, 74 deaths from covid after vaccine. You calculate and choose.

1 in a million death rate after vaccine, or 2-6 in 100 death rate without.

Thanks for posting that, I wondered how those numbers shook out. I'll take Door #1.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

Depends. Who really knows what the long-term effects of having been saved from death by a life preserver are...?

Survival comes with a lot of painful pre-existing conditions.

[Melving]

Depends. Who really knows what the long-term effects of having been saved from death by a life preserver are...?

Survival comes with a lot of painful pre-existing conditions.

 

Let's see. After vaccination, I'd think taxes and death would be pretty likely. Also probable are work, disagreements, heartbreak, pain, cancer, dementia and other things. Tack on warfare and global warning and those vaccines out to come with some pretty long disclaimers. Now on the flip side, by not getting vaccinated, you can be saved from all these things, and better yet, you can spare your friends and relatives too, especially if they haven't been vaccinated...

[Docbop]

Just saw a article about identical twins and both got covid and ended up in the hospital. The one recovered quickly the other had to be airlifted to another hospital and was in ICU and almost died. She recovered but the article talked to doctors saying even with identical twins there are differences in the DNA of our body's defence system. Doctor also said one of the key factors in how our bodies react to a major disease is how fast we get medical attention, the longer you wait the worse the end result can be.

[MathOfInsects]

The hard part of this past year hasn't necessarily been the misinformation. Who would expect anyone to know anything about coronaviruses and spray/droplets/masks and even more (less), mRNA vaccines, or even vaccines in general?

 

It's been the blustery confidence that so many people have adopted to state their nonsense. It's kind of like when people watch the Olympics and someone who knew nothing about figure skating ten minutes before says, "Oh, bullsh&t, she didn't land that axel clean." Except that instead of people gliding around on frozen water for our entertainment, it's a population-threatening viral pandemic of once-in-a-century proportions, with once-in-a-millennium technology being deployed to solve it (and myriad future scourges), and there is nothing cute about the Joe Six-Pack act, beyond the fact that certain corners of the media world have made ignorance seem like some kind of virtue.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Depends. Who really knows what the long-term effects of having been saved from death by a life preserver are...?

Survival comes with a lot of painful pre-existing conditions.

 

Let's see. After vaccination, I'd think taxes and death would be pretty likely. Also probable are work, disagreements, heartbreak, pain, cancer, dementia and other things. Tack on warfare and global warning and those vaccines out to come with some pretty long disclaimers. Now on the flip side, by not getting vaccinated, you can be saved from all these things, and better yet, you can spare your friends and relatives too, especially if they haven't been vaccinated...

 

There's one important difference here that makes this analogy invalid - life preservers have been heavily tested and used for decades.

[Mighty Motif Max]

In interesting news, Oxford University released a study that, among other things, appears to indicate that the rate of thrombosis/clotting caused by the Pfizer and Moderna vaccinations is roughly the same as that of AstraZeneca' vaccine. It is important to note that since this rate is so small in the first place that it isn't necessarily enough data to draw a formal, firm conclusion, but it is interesting to follow. Regardless, the rate of clotting of ANY of the COVID-19 vaccines is many times lower than that of people who have contracted COVID.

 

https://osf.io/a9jdq/