Is Fatar TP40L supposed to have 3-4 graded spring zones?

[mrp]

Hi,

 

Got a Fatar TP40L as a spare part from Kurzweil.

 

Initially thought I might have gotten a TP40GH instead, as the bass keys are noticeably heavier:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3095429/got-a-tp40gh-instead-of-a-tp40l-from-fatar.html

 

Then came to the conclusion this might be due to different sets of springs, while the hammers are the same. Likely three, maybe four zones.

 

Do you guys find the lower keys in yours any heavier? Do you think the spring action might lighten up with time of use?

 

Thanks.

[Al Coda]

AFAIK,- Fatar TP40L is NOT a graded (hammer) weighted action

 

A.C.

[mrp]

Sure it isn't supposed to be graded, but somehow it is.

 

Leading me to the conclusion it's graded my the means of springs rather than hammers.

[mrp]

Anyone else with a hands-on experience of a TP40L could chime in please?

[Mike Warren]

Probably the reason you're not getting any answers is because most people who have used keyboards with the TP40L have the same experience as me. I owned a PC3X for about 7 years and have owned a Forte for over 6 years now. Both have TP40L keybeds, and both were not graded. I don't know why yours is different, but my guess is that you have been supplied another model.

[mrp]

Thanks.

 

Wrong model was my initial guess, but then I figured the hammers are most likely of the same size, while it might be the springs or other element that is making the difference. Could they've modified the later revisions in this fashion? It's from 08/2020.

 

Have you found any touchweight difference between the two by the way? I've encountered a PC3A8 that was 20 grams downweight lighter than a PC3K8 and a Forte at the same shop.

[Mike Warren]

Have you found any touchweight difference between the two by the way?

 

Not that I noticed. Bear in mind that I have psoriatic arthritis that affects my hands so playing anything is a bit of a struggle. But the TP40L is one of the few keybeds I can play for hours with minimal discomfort. The Yamaha's I've played caused me to have to stop playing after 10 to 20 minutes.

[mrp]

Sorry to hear about that. I have different problems that make me even more sensitive to the touch.

 

Meanwhile, another owner has confirmed his one is also a bit heavier on the bass register.

[Stokely]

I had a Studiologic controller with a tp-40 (of some variant), I don't recall it feeling heavier anywhere on the keyboard. That said, it was a mid-90s model so I imagine a LOT of changes could have been made! I miss that controller, I like that action and may get something else with it if I can sell one of my other keyboards.

[mrp]

Yes, they seem to have gone through lots of revisions.

 

I'd assume that springs play a more significant role than expected. For example, one key came with spring separate from the assembly - and that key feels soft, akin to that very good soft TP40L I tried at a store.

 

The springs on the bass side might look more tightly wound, from what can be discerned from the sides. Haven't dismounted the keys though. Hammers seem to look the same, travel distance is the same, what else other than springs do we have in the equation?

 

Then there's hope for springs to soften over time, but that has been said to pertain more to TP100 than TP40 from what I gather.

[mrp]

Guys, please take a look at the QC sheet. Some boxes are left blank. Doesn't it imply a Factory Second?

 

[stoken6]

I wouldn't assume a factory second/quality reject from that sticker. It has a "OQC" (Original Quality Control?) stamp.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[mrp]

Looks like there's even two OQC (Overall QC?). But here are them all:

 

[mrp]

Meanwhile, I've been in touch with the owner of 65404550 KEYBED ASSY, TP40L S/N 2020W35 05729 29.08.20, whereas mine is 2020W35 05728 28.08.20. His unit has equal downweight/upweight force on all 88 keys, whereas mine has stiffer less precise keys all below the top 2 octaves, then there is one massively stiff key, then one light key with spring separated, besides all the cosmetic damage.

 

I strongly surmise my unit had been seriously messed with while at AM&S, and knowingly sent out in this condition. Either the springs/further parts of the lower keys have been swapped unlawfully by hand, or the lower part could have been drowned with moisture.

 

Any idea what else can be causing this?

[mrp]

Or it might be just the way Fatar rolls.

 

I had to change the SL88 Grand to a another copy several times because of faulty / quirky keys.

Many of the keys were noisy, and they seemed to rub against something inside the instrument. Lot of clicking and rubbing noises.

Another thing was inconsistency on the key action or key playability. Some of the keys seemed to be more light than others. And these differences in playability or noisiness were arbitrary along the key bed.

Eventually I tested 3 copies of SL88 GRAND and then gave in.

I really wanted to like this instrument. And apart from keybed defects, the Sl88 GRAND would be a great instrument with nice MIDI-features.

 

https://www.thomann.de/gb/studiologic_sl88_grand_reviews.htm

[Delaware Dave]

Send the picture to Fatar; they can check from their factory records and advise you of the exact specs of the keybed that was manufactured.

[mrp]

I have already. They confirmed it had passed their QC. I haven't been able to get any further comment on the key feel disparity though.

[mrp]

The pink fixators besides the springs that you push in to get a key out - and that rotate with every push of a key - these rotate with a considerable attrition force in the low A key while being feather-like in the high C!!!!

 

 

It's unlikely due to the amount of grease or lack thereof - but rather due to how the metal rod is cast in the first place. Certain microns off - and the keys become 20 grams stiffer to press.

 

This perfectly expains why the PC3A8 I tried at a store years ago - was vastly superior to a PC3K8 and a Forte right next to it, as well as most Korgs for company. It just happened to have a perfectly cast metal rod.

 

This would explain all the forum discrepancies where some guys might like their light TP40L's, whereas other guys just can't get past the "stiffness". Of the plastic stoppers rubbing against an oversized diameter rod cast with poor tolerance, it turns out. Not a hammer, not a spring - a metal rod is the heart of the assembly.

 

This explains why the difference happens in "zones" too. I've read some people had stiffer keys to the middle, and some to the top.

 

By no means is it nuclear physics to be able to cast a quality metal rod with a tight tolerance in 2021.

 

 

[o0Ampy0o]

The pink fixators besides the springs that you push in to get a key out - and that rotate with every push of a key - these rotate with a considerable attrition force in the low A key while being feather-like in the high C!!!!

 

 

It's unlikely due to the amount of grease or lack thereof - but rather due to how the metal rod is cast in the first place. Certain microns off - and the keys become 20 grams stiffer to press.

 

This perfectly expains why the PC3A8 I tried at a store years ago - was vastly superior to a PC3K8 and a Forte right next to it, as well as most Korgs for company. It just happened to have a perfectly cast metal rod.

 

This would explain all the forum discrepancies where some guys might like their light TP40L's, whereas other guys just can't get past the "stiffness". Of the plastic stoppers rubbing against an oversized diameter rod cast with poor tolerance, it turns out. Not a hammer, not a spring - a metal rod is the heart of the assembly.

 

This explains why the difference happens in "zones" too. I've read some people had stiffer keys to the middle, and some to the top.

 

By no means is it nuclear physics to be able to cast a quality metal rod with a tight tolerance in 2021.

Would not the metal rods be machined with something like a centerless grinder while the pink fixators would be "cast"?

 

Regardless, achieving a precise tolerance has been possible for decades.

[mrp]

Sure you're right, a metal part like this is further machined after it has been cast.

 

Apparently, it's still unreachable for certain manufacturers to machine them perfectly in a scenario where microns play a huge role.

 

If we assume the overall design is shared across the manufacturers, it's now clear where all these "something is rubbing against something else making the action stiff but I can't put a finger on where" forum complaints are coming from.

[mrp]

"*Parts much larger than .750 x 10' can be ground, but sub-micron tolerances become much more difficult to hold as the part size grows."

 

https://www.msgrinding.com/pages/ultra-precision-centerless

 

It appears even dedicated services can't pull it off with long parts with ultra precision.

 

And this Fatar rod is 48.4" in length instead of 10".

 

Korg comes to mind - how RH3's in Kronos are inevitably lighter than in SV's, both Made In Japan. Aren't they hand-picking the best rods for the most expensive line, and even then it hugely remains a lottery.

[mrp]

Centerless grinders have been making precision parts for more than 115 years, and many of the machines are so durable that 40- and 50-year-old machines are still grinding away in shops

 

https://www.sme.org/technologies/articles/2017/june/pain-free-precision-centerless-grinding/

[mrp]

Okay, so it's been getting even more confusing lately.

 

The thickness of the rod must be the same. These measurements show the left side to be even 0.005 mm thinner.

 

 

 

Yet I hope you can see from the videos how the leftmost bushing is much harder to rotate.

 

https://radikal.ru/video/2eF4TZVrKwQ

 

https://radikal.ru/video/gavxBFmG9SP

 

So it's either down to the bushings themselves coming from distinctly different batches not manufactured to a proper tolerance, or a severe lack of grease (subjected to moisture while at AM&S?) , or a measurement error since the micrometer wouldn't fit perfectly to the rod. Anything else to blame here?

[mrp]

Okay, let's see if this helps.

 

Flawed Fatar TP40L - RMA direct exchange request

To:

Mr. Marco R. at Fatar Italy

Mr. Dean D. at AM&S

Mr. Juan V. at Sweetwater

 

Dear all,

 

I am beyond disappointed with the utter lack of support from either party involved, regarding the flawed Fatar TP40L Kurzweil 65404550 assembly I received earlier this year.

 

While the upper 2 octaves play fine, the lower keys are up to 20 grams heavier to press. Either the centerpiece metal rod has been machined poorly, or the pink plastic pivot bushings have wrong inner diameters. 

 

I can further corroborate my claim with:

 

1). Placing 80 grams worth of calibrated weights and watching the keys return: difference of about 5 mm. ensues. Take 10 bottom keys vs. 10 top keys - the pattern remains. This can be seen in the photos attached.

2). Taking off the keys and rotating the pink plastic pivot bushings: the rightmost rotates smoothly with no rubbing at all, while the leftmost - and then closer to the center - rotate with a perceived amount of rubbing against the rod. This can be seen in the videos attached.

 

Further quality issues:

-Several black keys came in scratched as if by knife.

-One white key came with its spring detached, lying in the box.

-One black key was 2x stiffer than the others - pic shows how the spring underneath was - just lying on its side!

-Excessive amount of dust indicating improper warehouse storage.

 

I am exercising my rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and I suggest that we collectively set up a direct RMA exchange with Fatar Italy, with shipping/customs covered by the responsible companies. I have purchased from Sweetwater/AM&S USA - having had it re-shipped via PolarExpress - as that was the only method to buy since the Russian Kurzweil distributor "Neva-sound" had declined altogether.

 

I would then urge an experienced engineer at Fatar to select a fine replacement assembly and perform a thorough Quality Control - to make 100% sure the replacement doesn't suffer from the rubbing of the plastic bushings against the aforementioned rod.

 

Please see the videos and the documents attached. The item has been standing unused throughout this whole time due to the defects.

 

Regards.

[JDBlackhawk]

Look up my posts at the Alesis music group about these bizarre anomalies in my 2 Fatar TP40 keybeds in my 2 Fusions-from 2005, which I completely dissected to determine what the hell was wrong with both of them! To summarize my findings-which took agonizing weeks to investigate and decipher-and partially correct at least the one.

 

1) 2 different 8HDs had 2 different TP40 keybeds-and serial numbers and dates on the stamps indicated these were released within 3 months of each other-in 2005.

 

2) Both my 8HDs had the distinct pink pivots-although I discovered from another Fusion 8HD owner theirs had green pivots-and was also 2005 manufacture date-the same as the earlier QS8's! (a TP20)

 

3) Now we come to the mystery-one 8HD had the same color hammer weights throughout the range of all octaves-and this one had the horrible 20-step difference in velocity response between black and white keys, which I still can't modify or resolve-I describe why in a minute...and the other had 2 different color hammer weights and there is no velocity discrepancy in this one-I think I see this in the posted picture above.

 

4) Now here is the next puzzle-the unbalanced keybed has no springs under the keys-and the good one does!....SO

 

5) I purchased tiny springs that are the same size as the ones in my "sprung" TP40-placed a few under just the black keys to see if it would solve the problem of unbalanced velocity between black and white keys-thinking this increased pressure would solve the problemAND IT DIDN'T! The black keys felt a little stiffer but the velocity response was the same!! AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

 

My conclusion-the guys or girls at the Fatar factory are spending a little too much time at the vino between (or before-or during) shifts-I can't think of anything else that makes sense as to how there could be such an unbelievable failure of quality control-and the even sadder surprise-now that I've read these new 2020/2021 posts-apparently some of these same people are still working there!!!! OR-they've decided that part of the newbie training program consists of wine-testing before or during assembling these keybeds!!!!! And why aren't the keyboard companies holding Fatar accountable for these really strange defects, screening these before these come to market??? A question for which I have no answer.

[mrp]

And why aren't the keyboard companies holding Fatar accountable for these really strange defects, screening these before these come to market??? A question for which I have no answer.

 

Yes I've seen your post.

 

Just check the owner and his gang's Instagram pages.

 

Getting our hopes up for Fatar though:

 

[johnchop]

Dude, congrats on limboing under the floor.

[mrp]

I got some massively discounted 2% cottage cheese today, was thinking if I should take a photo and upload on Instagram before adding them as friends.

 

Oh no, she's deleted my comment. A friendship lost.

[mrp]

They've totally lost out, my cheese would've been perfect with this: https://www.instagram.com/p/BoWVvTpCc84/

 

Not so much with this though: https://www.instagram.com/p/CHkkzSnJ2aH/

[mrp]

Fatar Made in Tunisia??? Have Kurzweil essentially been lying for decades with their "Made in Italy" slogan?

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BgibhLVAwGx/

 

 

Aug 9, 2011

Question from reelfood

Hi Debra, Thanks for your site!

 

I recently purchased a Nord piano that has a Fatar keybed made in Tunisia and they are using some kind of chemical on it that I am reacting to. I chose this piano because it was made without plywood (unlike most other major brands) so was very surprised and disappointed that there was an issue with it. My choices now are to get a Roland keyboard that has the plywood or get a used Nord that has gassed off for 6-8 mos or more.

 

My biggest question is will the used Nord, even though it may not smell as bad still be insidiously effecting me ? I would have to have it shipped across the country to even tell if I can tolerate it. I have played a Roland and even though it has the plywood, I did not notice a reaction to it. I did not buy it because even though I couldn"t smell it, I figured it must be gassing off formaldehyde. Perhaps someone knows of a digital piano/keyboard that has no plywood? Thanks for any thoughts you or your readers have.

 

Debra"s Answer

Readers, and suggestions?

 

https://www.debralynndadd.com/living-as-nature/page/321/