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Nord Grand with Kawai Action


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So to test this, I took the USB cable off the composing rig and pulled it over to the Nord Grand and loaded up the Synchron Steinway. Oh my. It's the best virtual piano experience I've ever had. I thought I liked this sample played on the VAX77.... This is a different league. With the studio monitors turned up to acoustic piano levels, it is just glorious. The Steinway they sampled is, of course, a better piano than the Kawai RX-7 that I own. This is clearly evident in the sound. It sounds the way a concert grand should - effortless easy bass, and bright sparkling top end. Perhaps if I worked with my tuner to really get the unisons perfect I could get in the ballpark, but this is a superior recorded sound to be sure. I won't be getting rid of the RX-7, obviously. But the Nord Grand controlling the Synchron Steinway is a fantastic experience. It certainly feels as nuanced as playing on my RX-7. I am quite confident this could be recorded onto an album and no one would know. It is very, very good. (and I am picky about recorded piano tone) When played with the surround speakers and samples on, it is even better. At acoustic piano volumes, it is not only a better piano, it is a better room than my piano is in! A rich and rewarding playing environment.

 

So, I don't know that I'll have much more to write about this. The Kawai action in the Nord Grand is an exceptional bit of kit - it is the best portable action I've played and is in the range of a good grand piano action for how it feels and how subtly one can play. Nord have built it into a premium instrument that is as portable as any other premium stage piano at ~40 lbs. The internal sounds are adequate for many purposes. But if you ignore them, and connect instead to state-of-the-art samples, it supports a completely different experience. This is a very expressive keyboard mechanism, and with the triple pedal, it is capable of shocking realism when paired with superlative samples and quality speakers/amplification. Of course, all these additions cost much more than the keyboard itself. But that is the way it works. No one puts 266GB pianos into portable keyboards. But my experience demonstrates that if you are willing to pay a premium to get the best portable action in an elegant package and simply use it as a piano keyboard with a MIDI out, the results can be stunning. We live in great times. If this instrument is interesting to you, definitely play one. The action and playability are worth the premium if you care about such things.

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Thanks for the great, detailed reports.

 

I would prefer to have one truly excellent piano sample than a whole bunch of different ones at lower quality, but I can accept that this isn't Nord's market, and that there is usefulness in being able to change the sound.

Yes. And as your numbers demonstrate, even if Nord came out with a piano where you could dedicate the full memory to a single piano sample, it would barely make a dent compared to what's in the VSL. So you'd be trading off the versatility for what is (relative to that standard) only a modest increase in sampling depth. And of course as you also point out, VSL nuance and dynamic range is beyond what someone would typically need in a live performance board, which is Nord's wheelhouse. But it's great that you showed what you can get if you want it... and the economics of keyboard manufacturing being what it is, it's probably cheaper to buy a Nord Grand and a laptop running VSL than it would be to buy a theoretical Nord that had that VSL library built in.

 

they sampled the piano at .5dB increments, measured acousticaly. This is better than any human can play consistently.

Yes... in fact human control of what can be played consistently is quite poor, relatively speaking. But of course, your piano performance is about what you do in the moment, not about your ability to repeat it identically.

 

They say up to 100 per note, so they likely put more detail into the most played areas, which is an entirely sensible decision. The top keys just don't say as much as middle-C tonally or musically.

As opposed to "most played" it could also be more samples in lower notes than higher... where your "top keys" comment would equally apply.

 

All this just goes to show why modelling is the way forward. It's a much more elegant approach than brute forcing it with samples.

Modeling can definitely address some issues, yet in other aspects, so far, it still seems unable to capture some of what sampling can. You pay one piper or the other, I guess. And depending on what "flaws" you're more sensitive to, you can easily prefer one approach or the other.

 

Is this same Kawai/Nord action in any of Kawai's other products?

Not exactly... apparently it is some altered version of what's in the MP7SE.

 

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Is this same Kawai/Nord action in any of Kawai's other products?

Not exactly... apparently it is some altered version of what's in the MP7SE.

To that end, I wonder if anyone has had the chance to compare the feel of this board to the Kawai VPC1, as long as we're discussing using it as a controller for software pianos.

 

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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All this just goes to show why modelling is the way forward. It's a much more elegant approach than brute forcing it with samples.

 

 

This is not my experience. Pianoteq is certainly space saving. It improves with every release. It is very responsive to playing nuance. But it is not close to what the VSL Synchron library offers in terms of sound (or the Ravenscraft, Keyscape, etc). If you spend a lot of time recording pianos, the model just doesn't sound real. If you only play Pianoteq, it is very satisfying. But it will take a bit more for the model to really catch up to the samples.

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What Nathaniel said. I just sold my entire Pianoteq Pro suite with all add-ons, for way too little money, last week. I feel that sampling has finally caught up with modeling, and that it will now have a permanent lock due to the inherent limits with modeling.

 

Not sure why that came up in the context of this thread, but I am glad to hear once again of the excellent Kawai action in the Nord Grand. I'm going to check out some audio demos now, as I've really never experienced this keyboard as far as I can remember; just the Nord Stage (and Electro).

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+1 on the Grand. I played it at GearFest in a somewhat quieter environment and it really stood out to me. I cannot speak to the Nord sounds, other than that they work for me live, but the playing experience was the first time I felt I connected with a Nord piano.

 

Edit: I probably said the exact same thing on this thread previously and forgot about it, but not looking for it. Na na na na na na!

Moe

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With the Nord Grand, can one adjust velocity sensitivity in order to play the ppp samples like a real grand piano, and still play fff with the same velocity curve and patch? .

 

The MIDI stream from the Nord definitely plays from teens to full MIDI velocity repeatedly and controllably. If you have a sample that has ppp to fff samples, you can play all those sounds. I have never adjusted the velocity curve. There is a Light/Medium/Heavy selector button right on the keyboard, so it is definitely adjustable. Looking at it for the first time, mine is set on "Medium".

 

There are no ppp samples in the pianos I tried from the Nord Piano Libarary. In my opinion, there are not pp samples either. Even the "XL" samples seem to be mp and up - the una corda pedal does help soften the sound, but "pp" is still not in the sample data. I wrote about this at length above. These are small sample sets for live playing in the band/ensemble contexts that usually implies. If you want "as good as it gets", then you will need a state-of-the art piano sample like VSL Syncron pianos or others that weigh it at hundreds of GB and stream from SSD. The keyboard is lovely when so paired and run through excellent amplification.

 

If you want a better built in sample, the Yamaha P-515's CFX sample is better than anything in the Nord Piano Library for detail and low volume play.

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Thank you. Your thoughts have been informative. On my CP4 to get a wide dynamic touch response that feels natural for me, I adjust the velocity offset, velocity curve, and filter. For me, the velocity offset adjustment is most important.

 

Is there a way to adjust the velocity trigger thresholds of a Nord Piano Library piano in the Nord Sampler Editor? This would be longer and more difficult to achieve smooth, realistic results, though. (From what I read about Nord, I don't expect this level of customization.)

 

The Nord Grand's action & flavorful sounds are an excellent pairing. I'll get more info when playing one. Which do you find are the most playable solo piano sounds? (I'll look for those in the store.)

 

Thank you.

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I'm sorry, I don't use the in-built sounds at all right now. The keyboard is on the desk of my composing setup, and I don't have anything plugged into the audio jacks. I liked the action, the MIDI output, and the physical form factor works for my desk and how I have keyboards, mice, and faders arrayed on its flat top.

 

The best thing about the Nord Piano library is immediately evident in the demos on their site - the pianos all have a strong and different character. For changing sounds/moods quickly, this is clearly useful. When you go to test it, I would try to play the XL versions of the pianos. They have the most data.

 

The Nord Sound Manager is only for loading sounds. It does not have deep controls like you describe for the CP4.

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Dave, I think it all gets down to whether the action on the NG works for you, or not. The rest of the package is well-understood: the samples, effects, reliability, weight, etc. When I was doing acoustic-level stuff (vs. electric band), I was seriously considering it, but had a NP4 at the time which was close enough.

 

In person, I think it has a nice physical presence, and looks more substantial (?) than the normal slab. Certainly a candidate for one of your normal rotations with a digital board.

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Reading about his usage, he doesn't use the Nord pianos at all and defers to the software ones.

Supposedly the action is pretty similar to that of the Kawai MP7SE, which is a stonger MIDI controller. To whatever extent Nord has customized the action (removing the gradedness, at least), I tend to believe that the changes are largely designed to create the best playing experience for their own sounds, and its playability advantages over the Nord for VST use may be minimal or non-existent. Nicer aesthetics, though.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Bet you have thought about Kawai ES920, which may or mayn"t be as long a wait as P-515. It has same action as NG but unmodified. Guess ES920 isn"t a stage piano though neither is P-515?

 

I still own NG, but use Yamaha YC88 lately. NG weighs only 6 lbs. or so more, but is a bit bulkier than YC88 height-wise and I like having the drawbars, pitch bend, iOS integration etc. on YC88. If drawbars weren"t interesting I"d go for CP88. Also, the wooden keys on YC88 feel more substantial & precise/tight than NG plastic keys. Modified NG seems looser/lighter which goes well with EP"s & maybe even organ. I find NG dynamics to be surrealistically expressive with built-in pianos, which could be a pro or con. It would be a pro if there were narrower velocity controls, other than medium/light/heavy. Another con is the clunky noise made when NG keys are pressed, if you"re practicing at low volume.

 

Coming from many years of NS2/NS3 usage, I do miss the Nord sounds! They translate well into any room/situation. Yamaha + iPad sounds are doing pretty well, but if Nord came out with Nord Grand Stage I"d be real tempted.

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Welcome, Dave. Haven"t tried CP88 but read several places that action & sounds are identical except CP88 has more pianos onboard. Bösendorfer is missing from YC88. I use CFX mostly & dig it for all styles.

 

Really wish I could"ve tried em before buying em but pandemic + NG"s aren"t close by etc.. Bet there might be a CP88/YC88 to try somewhere close to you?

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I tried a NG at a local retailer and just loved how it played. The action alone seems to make the standard Nord Piano Library come alive. I really dislike the design, though.

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Here for the gear.

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I would be curious to hear from anyone that's owned it for awhile - gig, home or studio- and get your thoughts on, if you still dig it, feel it was worth the dough, or if you'd buy it again.

 

Nathanael has given a most stellar in depth and detailed review! He hasn't posted in awhile but I assume he still owns it. Reading about his usage, he doesn't use the Nord pianos at all and defers to the software ones.

 

Thanks in advance for feedback from any current user. :):cool:

 

I agree, Nathanael has give a great and accurate review of The Nord Grand.

 

Well, I have had a Grand almost since they came out - got the first one that Chuck Levin' s Washington Music received. Actually they never received it, as I ordered it from them as the distributor was shipping to them.

 

I have used it for gigs and in the studio. My experience has been very good. I think the playability is great - the Kawai keybed, regardless of what mods have been make, is fun and versatile. I have a Forte sitting beside it and the difference between the TP40 and the Kawai is big. However, rembember the Forte is a more general purpose keyboard and is well suited to the TP40.. Having said that, I can do everything I need to with the Nord. As you know, some people love the piano sounds, others hate them. I, obviously, love the sounds. I have used it for all styles of music, including jazz, and it has come through every time.

 

People at gigs, including other musicians, have commentedt on how much they like the sound. Note that they do not comment on my playing. That says something else! It really is not that hard to cart around. I did not get the Nord case, but one that works great from Gator. It is a little heavy, but that is what you get for a premium keybed.

 

I have mainly used the Grand in a duo - myself and a vocalist. It has served my needs well, and I highly recommend it. And I have been satisfied even with the single velocity samples in the sample section. There is a lot of capability in this keyboard.

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Hey thanks so much for the reply and detailed report ! Great to hear, definitely considering it./quote]

 

One thing I forgot - my setup. I'm currently using the Grand, QSC-8 Touchmix, and 2 QSC K10.2 speakers. I also have a QSC K8.2, which sounds equally good when I don't need a heavy bass. I've been using the 10.2s as I play a fair amount of bass. They can easily handle it.

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I tried a NG at a local retailer and just loved how it played. The action alone seems to make the standard Nord Piano Library come alive. I really dislike the design, though.

 

yeah I'm not crazy about the aesthetic either. I think if it were black it wouldn't bother me as much.

 

A vinyl wrap would take care of the Nord red and possibly help keep it looking pristine for when you sell because its 46lbs and boxy shape are no fun to carry. ;)

 

I"d consider one for home if there weren"t Yamaha"s and Kawai"s with as good or better actions for significantly less money.

 

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/BrownNord.jpg

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I pulled my S-90ES from storage this morning. 49.6lbs.

I keep it around because it"s a great controller for Cubase/Logic and has AT, pitch, mod, controller pedal inputs, etc. But it stays home. It would have to be a really easy load in / load out and special gig for some reason for me to do a heavy board these days.

 

I like the P-515 too, I"ve played it in the shop a few times. They ought to base a speaker-less slab on it. I did decide the CP88"s compact size and 41lbs were close enough and I dig the interface (so I grabbed one second hand). But for most gigs I"d still throw the Casio on my shoulder at 26lbs. Even though the Yamahas are a more pleasing piano playing experience for me.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I'm getting along quite well with that action on the Kawai ES920. I don't think it has all of elegance of the Nord Grand, but the jazz piano SK patch is quite good and I think it's very close to the playability of the Nord Grand for a lot less weight schlep and money.

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