Clonewheel shootout, VSTs and hardware

[AnotherScott]

A possibly helpful hint I thought I'd pass along... If you're trying to determine how much of a difference some of these would make in your own rig, try playing these files through the amp you play through at gigs. If you play in mono, try taking just one side and also try summing the two sides in a mixer and sending that into your amp. It's not inconceivable that you might prefer something listening through your headphones or computer playback system, but prefer something different if the same sounds were coming through your amp. Or that differences which seem very noticeable in the first context are barely so in the second.

[Al Coda]

 

CLICK TO HEAR HX-3 WITH VENTILATOR

 

 

CLICK TO HEAR HX-3 VERSION 5, NATIVE ROTARY SIM

 

 

When I can trust these examples,- for my taste,- HX3 v5 native OD / Leslie sim wins.

 

A.C.

 

[jverghese]

Yes, HX-3 Version 5 sounds very good, suits the Yes track well. The Vent sounds dull by comparison.

[Doerfler]

reviving this thread. We haven't had any clonewheel differences for a mnute.

So, other than any add ons, what is the most accurate keyboard leslie simulation.?

I have owed a HX3 module, loved it, just don't want to deal with modules.

I have owned an original Neo Instruments Ventilator, sold it,

now own a Neo Instruments Ventilator II. Love it. Of course I have a laptop or an iPad

to run any current fav leslie sim (IK Multimedia anyone?).

But let's just say I don't want to deal with any of that, just want a simple keyboard setup

with the most accurate internal leslie sim.

I currently own a dual manual Mojo (for sale in KC classifieds), and it's leslie sim is very good.

Also own a Korg Vox Continental, leslie sim needs to be bypassed for the Vent.

If I don't want to use a module, effects pedal, or laptop/tablet, what is my best option?

[dazzjazz]

Hi Doerfler, As I"ve said before, the two best clonewheels are the Viscount Legend and the Mag (HX3 engine into Vent).

Each is its own flavour. They need to be amplified well. I use my Legend with a stereo radial DI into two Yamaha DXR10s.

Ever since getting the impedance set up correctly, I have never looked back, or wondered if there was anything else out there. Hell, a bunch of new clonewheels could have been released and I wouldn"t have noticed, as I"ve stopped paying attention!

[CEB]

I like VB3. So I would expect the Mojo to be a good sim. I have one of the first Mini Vents. Its my favorite pedal because it has no knobs to get moved. My entire frame of reference when it comes to gear to gigging in the wild. Rack it and forget it.

[Delaware Dave]

Since the Mag organ has a Vent built into it I would have to give that the nod from a leslie sim perspective for a current clonewheel organ. Non clonewheel (not your question) would for me be B3x.

[ElmerJFudd]

Anyone know how you source a Mag in the US?

[Delaware Dave]

Anyone know how you source a Mag in the US?

 

Through Diversi: https://diversi.us/

 

Probably can also ship from Thomann

 

Here's the HX3 through a leslie as compared to an A-100. HX3 is the guts of the Mag organ. I believe, but would have to revalidate, that with the Mag organ you can use either the built-in Vent or the Mag's own internal leslie (i.e. the HX3 internal leslie).

 

[video:youtube]

[AnotherScott]

I have owed a HX3 module, loved it, just don't want to deal with modules.

...

now own a Neo Instruments Ventilator II. Love it.

...

If I don't want to use a module, effects pedal, or laptop/tablet, what is my best option?

Based on those sentences, it sounds like dazz nailed it: "the Mag (HX3 engine into Vent)"

 

OTOH, while I haven't played the Mag, I disagree with dazz' assessment of the Viscount Legend. I played the module version, and its overdrive is nowhere near as good as a Vent's or even as good as some other clones (and to me, overdrive is as important to a rotary sim as the rotary effect itself, though I know not everyone agrees). It's also reported to have among the stiffest actions of a clonewheel, which is also not going to be to everyone's taste.

[dazzjazz]

The Viscount Legend action is not stiff at all. Not as light as the Mojo action though. The MAG C2 organ loaned to me by company owner Max for my Czech Republic tour was brand new, and that was a little stiff. After 7 gigs it was starting to loosen up nicely. The videos are on YouTube and linked in another thread here.

Dang, I regularly play a '59 C3 that hasn"t been played much, and that is stiff!

 

Overdrive is a personal taste thing for sure. Regardless, I like the overdrive on the Legend. I think we spend waaaay too much time tweaking and bitchin" and not enough time practicing. I include myself in this statement. You"d be amazed at how many top level players don"t really care about the finer points of a clonewheel!

[Outkaster]

I like my XK5 admittedly I got it by accident.

[ghiromax]

HI guys,

 

Max from MAG Organs here... first of all thanks for the nice words many of you spent on my work :-)

 

Without reciting a sales pitch,(that I'd consider inappropriate here, as well in many other places ... :-)) I'd like to pass you some basic information that this much-appreciated community seems to be missing ... Without any precise order:

 

Tom Tuson of Diversi decided to enjoy some quieter time in warm Arizona slowing down his business. We keep having an excellent relationship (or better friendship) and he'll be glad to provide all the local support needed to MAG Organs in the USA and Canada.

The sales to the USA, as to the rest of the world, are handled directly from Praha (Czech Republic - EU) and some -hopefully small- efforts will tell the potentially interested players how ... And no, it's not possible to buy a MAG through Thomann, nor any other large or small retailer... :-)

 

MAG's use the HX3 and the Vent DSP technology and I love both (I have many reasons for that, but as promised I'll stop here ...) between the 2 digital boards there is a piece of analog circuitry of proprietary MAG design that carries on some (to me) relevant functions like the Volume Normal/Soft, an Analog Volume control not affected by the significant "stepping" of the digital one and a proprietary, high-quality reproduction of the traditional spring reverbs used in the A-100, and other old aftermarket kits often found on B-3's). The analog "carrier" board for the ventilator has a different proprietary output balanced circuitry.

All these features (and the sound modifications they introduce) are not available on any other HX3 based solution and contribute to the MAG's own sound signature.

 

Darren (dazjazz) is totally right... unfortunately at that time, I just sold my previous demo P-2, so I lent him a brand new unit and the keybeds were of course not in their ideal condition... As many know the Fatar TP/8O's need some burn-in to reach their design "weight", .

For those willing to hear my test results and opinion (and won't fall asleep after the first line :-)) I made some pretty accurate tests between a P-2 professionally used for some gigs and the pristine "auntie Marie" A-100 that I keep in the lab as a reference.

I'll talk in relative terms since to the best of my knowledge, doesn't exist any accepted standard for measuring the "weight" of the keybeds and different procedures can bring substantially different results; as a side "effect" I suggest you consider "cum granu salis" any statement you'd possibly find where weights (or forces, that would be more correct from physics viewpoint ...) are given.

After this boring introduction, my results were that IN CORRESPONDENT ZONES of the keybed, the differences between the Fatar and the vintage keybeds remained below 5% (on average around 3%). Curiously enough higher differences were measured in different areas or the same keybed in all 4 units tested.

That said my personal opinion, once more in line with the one of Darren, is that the standard springs after the burn-in offer the most accurate reproduction of an excellent/pristine condition vintage console. This of course won't eliminate all the limitations introduced by the totally different design principles and geometry between the modern and vintage keybeds.

It's also true that some players are used to some beaten-up consoles with lighter keybeds so MAG can offer lighter springs to satisfy these needs... :-)

 

I hope I was able to remain within fair limits, if not please let me know and I'll amend my post. On the other hand, if someone has other specific questions, please feel free to ask and I will gladly reply ... As you probably already noted I love talking about my "babies" ROFL

 

Max

[The Real MC]

I like my XK5 admittedly I got it by accident.

 

What, you rear-ended a cargo truck and the XK5 landed in your car?

 

Those are the best acquisitions, sort of like my Oberheim FVS.

[mate stubb]

HI guys,

 

Max from MAG Organs here... first of all thanks for the nice words many of you spent on my work :-)

....

 

if someone has other specific questions, please feel free to ask and I will gladly reply ... As you probably already noted I love talking about my "babies" ROFL

 

Max

 

OK, let's talk keybeds - something I have an interest in. Have you done any mods to the TP-80 for the Mag to address the shallower key dip of the Hammond console, and high trigger points?

[Paul Harrison]

As I"ve said before, the two best clonewheels are the Viscount Legend and the MAG (HX3 engine into Vent).

 

I agree. In the 1970s, I had a Hammond B3 and Leslie 122 that I bought brand new. Later I had a Hammond XK3c and XK1c. Now I have a Viscount Legend Solo, which I use for gigs, and a MAG C2, which I keep at home for now. The MAG is the best clonewheel I have played, hands down.

 

I am not fussy about key action, and I soon got used to the Viscount, but I chose the lighter spring option on the MAG, and it feels fine.

 

The keyclick, percussion, and chorus vibrato on the MAG sound really authentic and are easy to tweak using the free HX3 editor software.

 

The Viscount's internal Leslie is very good, but I play it through a Ventilator, which is better, but not needed with the MAG, which has a Mini Vent built in.

 

The real wood end panels (I chose walnut) on the MAG look really stylish, and Max"s build quality and personal service are excellent.

[pinkfloydcramer]

Here's the HX3 through a leslie as compared to an A-100. HX3 is the guts of the Mag organ. I believe, but would have to revalidate, that with the Mag organ you can use either the built-in Vent or the Mag's own internal leslie (i.e. the HX3 internal leslie).

 

[video:youtube]

 

Thanks for posting this! My only wish is that it had also included a Mojo, for a 3-way comparison. So far, I have not seen any YT videos A/B' ing a Mojo with a real Hammond (both into a Leslie) that do the Mojo justice- it always seems to be lacking in presence compared to a real Hammond. I had a setup that came closer but sadly, my Mojo just ain't working anymore- so I can't record a sample.

[Doerfler]

thanks for all the quick replies, everyone. Much appreciated. I really mean this. Now I know where things stand.

[Doerfler]

I like VB3. So I would expect the Mojo to be a good sim.

 

Mojo is a good sim, Ed. C3 with chorale nails Dreams by Allman Brothers. All 8's in tremelo gets squrrelly in upper registers, like every other sim. Vent fixes this. Mojo through the Vent is excellent.

[Doerfler]

I like my XK5 admittedly I got it by accident.

 

Jason, are you happy with the internal leslie sin of the XK5? I know everything else is just about perfect.

[Delaware Dave]

So far, I have not seen any YT videos A/B' ing a Mojo with a real Hammond (both into a Leslie) that do the Mojo justice- it always seems to be lacking in presence compared to a real Hammond. I had a setup that came closer but sadly, my Mojo just ain't working anymore- so I can't record a sample.

 

This might be what you're looking for. You need to watch the entire video. Mojo sits on top of an A-100 and both going through a tube leslie. Direct sound comparisons of the two.

 

[video:youtube]

[Outkaster]

I like my XK5 admittedly I got it by accident.

 

Jason, are you happy with the internal leslie sin of the XK5? I know everything else is just about perfect.

 

Yeah I mean for my needs Dave it's fine. I have a Vent if I need it also but for one off gigs it's great. I haven't really unearthed all it can do either but it's a great instrument. Since I started a business selling Leslie speakers it's changed my attitude towards things....

[ghiromax]

Moe,

 

the Fatar TP/8O has 2 series of bubble contacts and you can select via the free Editor SW, the external programmer or the iOS app. if you want to trigger the sounds from the higher or the lower contact.

The P-2 demo unit I have in the lab at the time is set to trigger from the higher contact and triggers at around 3.5.3.6 mm of travel measured as close as possible to the end of the key.

The front rails of the reference A-100 are set to the lower position in order to reduce to the minimum the key dip and, with a much wider range of variations, the keys start triggering at exactly the same point

Setting the rails to the highest position would increase the key dip of at least 1.5 mm

 

If you have other questions/doubts, please feel free to ask.

 

M.

[bill bosco]

i agree with your assessment , in own a legend live , a UHL x3-2 and a recently completed hx3 build .i think the hx-3 based organs amplify better , though ,than the viscount , or

anything else i've played . just today i finally was able to run the hx3 organ through my 122 , sounded great . was shocked that it actually sounded better ( with a vent )through

my two QSC 8.2s . and i don't like the 8.2s for keys , i stopped using them for that ! never heard a clonewheel sound so good through powered monitors . and of course , loud for days .

i think it has something to do with the nature of the FPGA chip in the hx3 , can't really describe it , other than it's got a very analog presence to it .

[Delaware Dave]

"..can't really describe it , other than it's got a very analog presence to it ...

This has what I've always felt about my Voce, it has its sweet spots and in those spots the Voce sounds analog, very organic and why I enjoy playing it. i especially like how it reacts to the expression pedal. Through a leslie speaker there is no shrillness in the upper register. I wish the C/V were improved and splittable by manual.