Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[rockinredeye]

The SS could use more bass but I think it's more a function of cabinet size. I played on a small wood stage, room for the drummer & me, and my bass response was much improved! Specs say frequency ranges down to 100Hz but it doesn't cut off there, it rolls off. I think the 8" produces below 100Hz but the cabinet just won't support below that. Does anybody here have any idea how big a resonant wood cab would have to be to improve the bass response? A giant cajon?

[Al Quinn]

Big ups to Al Quinn for the idea.

Thanks guys. I'm glad to see that some of you like this setup. That was my hope.

 

Chuck's idea of upgrading the front speaker is interesting. Looking forward to hearing Aspen's thoughts on this.

[Al Quinn]

...well, I am personally not sure there is enough of a market for that single use (slightly better AP verses everything else that seems fine now) to make the difference in price pay off.

Just wanted to comment on "slightly better AP" as that hasn't been my experience.

 

With the SS alone I couldn't warm up to the AP sound and stopped using it on AP-centric jazz gigs. To me the AP sounded electric rather than acoustic. Instead I was using a pair of TT08A's which provided a vey clear and pleasing sound but lacked the omnipresent sound of a real acoustic piano. Also, setting up two speakers was a pain and often resulted in compromised placement. I continued to use the SS alone on blues and rock gigs but found myself playing more organ and EP then AP because the organ and EP sounded really good and the AP did not. I wasn't satisfied with this scenario. With the TT08A/SS combo placement is very easy, everyone in the band and audience hears me well, and most importantly I get the feeling of playing a real acoustic piano because the AP samples in the CP4 are more faithfully reproduced and the sound is everywhere. For me, the AP sound and playing experience is drastically improved. Although I was satisfied with the SS alone for organ and EP, they have also benefited significantly with this combo.

 

I get and respect that we all have different needs and hear things differently so the benefit of this approach will vary. It's really just a matter of taste whether or not the combo approach is worth the extra expense and schlep. Since I already owned the TT08A and don't mind moving an extra 25 lbs, I'm thrilled with this approach. It's the first time I've ever been satisfied with a portable gigging amp setup.

[MathOfInsects]

Dig, dig, dig. For sure.

 

My day job used to be in advertising, so my default is always to think about value-proposition. My "slightly better AP" wasn't at all a knock on your highly honed sense of sound and preference, it was more, "What is the 'story' this new box would tell.'" As someone who used to write that story, what I come up with is, "People who want really great-sounding APs would love it....and everyone else would be paying a lot more for stuff they probably really like already at the much lower price point." That's a tough sell, and in my mind slightly pollutes the current value prop of the box, which is, "pristine sound at impossibly low price point." So...was it pristine after all, or not?

 

But I think cphollis might be onto something: those in your boat--a small but important portion of the overall SS3 buying public--might be willing to pay someone to custom-mod the current box, and that custom-modder might even be someone who establishes a working relationship with Aspen or his company, to ensure the best fit of hardware and the like. That seems like a good way to preserve the current value prop, while still getting you and others the piano sound you like and require.

 

/fantasy league

 

 

[Al Quinn]

I understand what you're saying and would never suggest replacing the current SS as it's the product that hits the center of market perfectly.

[Aspen]

I think this thread would have gone very differently if the box were even $400-$500 more than it is, let alone the price difference I imagine we'd be talking about.

 

But it's all fantasy league until Aspen chimes in.

 

Pardon my late chime-in here guys, I have been dark for the last few weeks sorting out my new computer systems, seems fewer cloud sites were supporting my older Mac OS and associated SW, and of coarse you just don't upgrade your OS to an old box...so it's basically been a start over.

 

Now, down to chime in; Wow, soo many GREAT points made here since my last comment, I hardly know where to start. Let's unpack it as follows;

 

RE: upgrading the 8" coax with that interesting Italian job over at Parts Express from our Eminence CX2008; Why not? I am pretty sure it would fit, and you would not need the passive crossover as our tri-amp electronic x-over (in theory) should be plug and play nicely.

 

Comparing specs on paper ('DANGER Will Robinson'...specs can deceive), actually I do not see a huge advantage.

 

The Faital response starts at 75Hz, while the CX2008 (our S3 woofer) starts lower at 57Hz...so I do not think there would be much LF improvement, especially as these are calculated in a larger Thiele-Small cabinet (which the SS3 is NOT).

 

The 'power handling' is higher on the Faital, 500 watts as compared to 200 watts on the Eminence. But without actually adding more power I am not sure that would translate to more 'SPL' (Sound Pressure Level). However, the 'sensitivity' of the CX2008 (90db) is less than the Italian (95dB), which is how much louder a speaker is with same given watts applied...and 5dB is well worth noting. Advantage; the Italian Job.

 

The Italian HF component seems to also look better on paper, starting from 1.7KHz as compared to our Eminence APT which starts at 3.5KHz...a result of it's larger voice coil and again, higher power handling...so the lower resonance of the Faital HF driver could 'perhaps' offer some improvement for your AP sources. The sensitivity is 2dB hotter for the Faital, so perhaps a slight advantage to the Faital there. But again, just comparing manufacture specs 'om paper' is dangerous biz as manufactures do not always use the same procedure (and or they hedge their results to look good).

 

Lastly, as 'weight' seems to matter here to the 'long of tooth' in our pride (what they call a pack of lions like us!), the Faital weighs in about 2+ lbs lighter...not a bad thing.

 

So, the upside is it 'may' have a better sound (in particular for APs), but we'd have to try one and see. A wiser man than me once said;

 

'There are things you can measure that do not matter, and there are things that matter...that you can not measure'. (Bert Einstein)

 

I am in violent agreement with that, hearing is the best measurement we have...and the only one that maters!

 

So, if enough of you were serious about this, maybe I'll order one @ $330 and run it thru my listening processes. But even if it made a big improvement (which I doubt), it would be cost prohibitive for my SS3 production.

 

Like anything, there is a price/quantity curve; the higher the price the fewer you sell...and IMHO the current SS3 has hit the sweet spot on that curve...as evidenced by this mega thread!

 

With the current SS3 v.3 selling (very well thank you!) @ $799, I am not sure adding maybe $2-300 more in just speaker upgrade would work in the real world. And our thread would likely shrink!

 

That said, swapping out one would probably be a 20 minute job, and no soldering. So it may be worth while to 'try one and see'. I am also kinda curious too.

 

RE: a SS 'Satellite' powered side speaker only, with CPS encoding. Frankly spoken, this idea has always been attractive to me. Which is why I tried it twice; first in the old GT Custom Shop 'SFX' line, and later in the Fender licensed product. But sadly, these products never panned out, so for my 'next CPS act', this product is somewhat lower on my 'wish list' (but it is still on my list).

 

Some of you have asked for a larger SS version, while others have requested a smaller SS. I like both of these directions, and I am listening all the time. But any 'next CPS" product is a huge amount of my of time and expense...more on that later.

 

However, in the end, I think a 'plug and play' product to compliment (NOT replace) the SS3 would be a better use of my time and resource.

 

I think I have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating as we 'brainstorm' about 'what ifs'.

 

Consider the product development cycle for any company today involves 1,000 of man hours, takes a minimum of 18 months to complete, and a minimum of $75K up to 200K to get 'on line. And that is not counting the $30+K in 'certification expenses' in order to sell it around the world (UL, CE, CSA, PSA). Then contrast all that with how short the average product lifespans are when the dust clears...9 out of 10 are gone after a year, or two.

 

The SS3 has been a real 'winner' by any measure, and an exception to the rule in so many ways. Now on market about 2 years and still going very strong...with no "end of life' in site. So most my daily energy is focus on servicing our growing SS3 family (now including some guitar players and PA users) and also, I am still growing production levels, as we have now moved into the European and Japanese markets. Our latest run #9 we just finished is by far our largest yet.

 

Much of this record breaking SS3 success is due to the tremendous support I have received here on this thread, for which I am most grateful. I can't thank you guys enough for caring to comment and share so often as you do. It's comforting to know you've got my back helping our newest CPS family members during he initial setups and to 'adjust the bloom'. So nice to know that I am not alone in this adventure...bless you all!

[Jazzmammal]

Aspen, back around Season 2 or so, I asked about the possibility of simply constructing a bass cab with the same footprint as the SS, perhaps an 11" cube, with a passive 8 or 10" woofer in it.

 

The question was is your bass amp powerful enough to run two passive woofers and how would that be connected? If this is possible this could be a very inexpensive way to get a bass boost. To make everything match perfectly maybe you could sell us the same Emminence 8" for that box although I'm thinking a 10" would be better. Of course that box could be a bit bigger too and the key for simplicity's sake is it's passive assuming your internal amp could push it.

 

Bob

[Aspen]

Hi Bob, that idea is a non starter...on several levels.

 

The SS3 is a this is a tightly balanced package with all 4 of it's Class D amps tightly balanced to it's 4 transducers in near perfect harmony. So it is simply not possible to drive another spk from same Class D amp we have dedicated to the 8" coax woofer.

 

Besides, there are so many small HiFi subs that are really CHEAP, like b/w $100-200 new. Check out any Best Buy or discount store like Frys (here in SoCal), and you'll see after market Sony or Yamaha powered subs with a 10" spk + 75-100 Watts that fit nicely under a SS3!

 

Like this $99 Yamaha at Frys Electronics that works just fine for most smaller gigs:

https://www.google.com/shopping/product/7723665733495790223?lsf=seller:6136318,store:1358544555752304294&prds=oid:12559893579472872402&q=Best+Buy+powered+sub+woofers&hl=en&ei=tZMRWP2qJYeZ0gKPqrLwCA

 

 

Or this larger version Yamaha from Best Buy @ $129:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/yamaha-10-100w-powered-subwoofer-black/7688987.p?skuId=7688987

 

BTW, that's a used Klipsch HiFi powered sub that you will see used in many of our early videos (including the one you are featured in Bob!). I bought that at the local swap meet for $40!

 

Of coarse these are 'consumer'products, not 'pro'. But they are well matched to the SS3, you really don't NEED a ton of sub for most gigs...and these work nicely in my experience.

 

A decent Pro sub will start around $250, that 500 watt 12: Behringer B1200 is $300, and really is 'overkill' in most venues (INHO), but it sounds great at half volume.

 

But believe me when I say (yet again) there is NO WAY I can compete with these big brand name subs with my small MOQ reality (Minimum Order Quantity).

 

So I will continue to stay away from competing over my head in the sub woofer market, and do what I do best; Center Point Stereo product(s).

 

 

 

[cphollis]

Hi Aspen. Thanks for the detailed response on what an upgraded 8" coax may -- or may not -- do. Like you, I'm curious.

 

No way would I suggest you change the successful formula you have today for SSv3. But even Porsche has the 911 Carerra, Carrera S, Turbo et. al. Nothing wrong with splurging on a few aftermarket upgrades.

 

If my APs sounded substantially better at moderate volumes, that would be enough for me to spend the money on the Italian job and crack open one of my SSv3s. Don't need more power, really.

 

I'm just hoping someone else will go first

[tnelson]

To enhance the accuracy of AP through my SSv3, I've been attempting to neutralize its output with EQ, using pink noise and FFT analysis, similar to calibrating stereo speakers or a house PA system. My MOTU interface and associated CueMix FX software allows me to generate pink noise through the SSv3, capture the output through a microphone, display it in an FFT plot and adjust EQ in real time to flatten any peaks and valleys. So far, I've removed peaks centered at 395 Hz and 1.25 kHz, and raised dips at 2.55 kHz and 2.9 kHz, to produce audio output that is more representative of the input. When I apply this EQ, my Pianoteq AP has sounded better in two rooms so far, without further adjustment. The particular frequencies I found probably apply only to my SSv3 and system. I don't know how much compensation is for the SSv3 vs for the room, but the result has been better AP sound. I mostly want to share this calibration approach, as an alternative to upgrading speakers or adding a separate high-end powered monitor. Perhaps others of you have found particular EQ adjustments that neutralize the SSv3 audio output? Perhaps we can pool our findings and come up with a baseline EQ plan that will make more of us happy playing AP through the SSv3. I'm sure Aspen has already done the bulk of the calibration in his design, but if we can remove the last bits of coloration, AP will sound so much more authentic.

[roygBiv]

tnelson

this is a very cool idea! I look forward to what comes up.

 

If this works, it might be something easily addressed using an EQ in an iPad app or lightweight digital mixer.

 

(ahwile ago I thought of trying some EQ tricks, even picked up an old Rane EQ to try tweaking my SpaceStation. Never got around to trying it though - so I'm now eager to see if this works!).

[Aspen]

tnelson; Wow, great stuff, thanks for sharing! I hereby award you the 'CPS family member of the moment award', (can you hear chimes?).

 

Without doubt, some sources can be optimized by specific EQ alterations to fit the SS3 natural curve...which will be nearly flat when the MFQ and HFQ are at 'noon' on your controls....as every source is slightly different it is difficult to please them all without builtin EQ (essentially what you have packaged here).

 

So of coarse I endorse this approach, wholeheartedly. If my SS3 project target price goals allowed, and if size were no issue either...I would have added a parametric EQ to the face plate. But alas, they did not. And also IMHO, while EQ can be used, it can also be 'abused too. So sometimes a simple design is better; 'less is more'.

 

Obviously the sophisticated approach with your FFA is the 'high road' path (pun intended, sorry :>)....as that can accurately show the correction points and then allows you to instantly see (and hear) the improvement.

 

In my designs I try to avoid what we call 'feature creep', which can be a result of a design by committee shopping list...driving up the price. I try to avoid adding 'features' that every user must pay for (and yet many will not need) that's just my design style.

 

So I usually take a minimalist approach when designing a product, focusing on the 'one thing' I MUST deliver, in this case the unique 3D CPS stereo effect that is my patented technology.

 

If a user wants to add a sub, or a tweak the system with an outside EQ...great, then he may do so at his/her own expense without me raising the cost for everybody. BTW, most mixers have a 3 channel EQ and I am sure some here have used that to fine tune and balance their sources too.

 

Of coarse we did plenty of this FFA 'computer modeling' when developing the SS3, without which you would have something that sounded much like the very first Spacestation; kinda honky and brash by comparison to the v.3. Overall, I think we hit the 'sweet spot' on this one, balancing cost to performance, which seems to be confirmed by our growing CPS family and so many positive 'gig reports'.

 

But of coarse...anything can be improved by an innovative user like you tnelson, so congrats again and thanks for sharing.

 

Now PM me your mailing address and T-shirt size and we'll get you a CPS SS3 T-shirt off in the mail right away!

[Bill Spencer]

Thought I'd share a pic from this afternoon's wedding gig.

 

http://i65.tinypic.com/sykxog.jpg

[cdom]

Pretty rig. What's that cool, little stand?

[rockinredeye]

I like your clean setup. A lot of cords but very neat. Don't recognize the stand, though. Like it too.

[cphollis]

Also am appreciative of your minimalist setup. If only you could make the clunky box and cables disappear, it would be like a music video

[Bill Spencer]

Yeah too many cables because I didn't take the time to dress them as well as I usually do. I was set up outside and then because of the rain they moved us up there at the last minute. I keep my little mixer up on the keyboard so that adds cables.

 

The stand is actually a projector stand made by Da-Lite. I pop riveted a pair of 1" tubes to the sides to accept a 2nd tier for my 2 'board setup.

[Aspen]

I was set up outside and then because of the rain they moved us up there at the last minute.

 

Very nice, clean minimalist set up Bill, and 'singin' in the rain' was you?

 

You may like to know that the 3 way front speaker system of the SS3 is basically 'water resistant', with it's Poly cone and foam surround (no paper parts!)...but I would push it.

 

I have one CPS family member who uses his for live playback on his boat parties on the bay...swears it carries 3D stereo for miles in every direction!

[Raymb1]

I've had my SSV3 for about 22 months now and couldn't be pleased with it. It's perfect for most of my small venue gigs. If more volume is needed then I run FOH along with the SSV3. Some of the guys think the sound of the PX5s coming through the SSV3 is awesome. If I need more bass a small mixer boosts the bass more than enough for me.

[Bill Spencer]

I wasn't 'in the rain'... rather on a patio under a full roof. Glass walls. I won't set up anywhere without being protected from either rain or sun.

 

Note that I gaff tape over all logos visible from the audience. I don't think they care what brands of gear I use, and until someone pays me, I don't want to advertise for anyone. Started this when I noticed how nice it looked when I did a couple of things on TV.

 

For this reason, I plan on getting some black opaque grille cloth to cover the SS3 front metal grille. Sorry, Aspen- if you did the grille in black and had a very discreet logo, I might leave it visible. Those 'in the know' would still recognize it by it's unique form factor!

 

Any of you recognize the keyboard? Mixer?

[cdom]

Without getting all political on ya... My fellow instrumentalists don't go to this much trouble with their axes. Do you cover up the logos on your kitchen appliances, automobiles, toiletries, clothing, and sporting equipment, as well? I'm happy to promote the products I use and believe in, even if I'm not rewarded as an endorsed professional. Hey, Aspen... I'll take a hot-pink or fluorescent green grille with LED logo, if you've got any sitting in the back of the workshop!

[Bill Spencer]

LOL. Actually, I do. Won't buy clothing with visible logos, either. It just rubs me the wrong way to pay for a product AND provide free advertising.

 

If you are a designer, trying to create something as attractive as possible within the bounds of function, would you put a name on it?

 

I would suggest one of the reasons others have commented on the sleekness of the rig's appearance in the photo is the absence of visually distracting words.

 

It's just me. I have a certain aesthetic sensibility that I understand isn't shared by everyone.

 

One of my current peeves is the inability to buy a power adapter for my macbook that isn't WHITE! I've been spray painting them black with pretty unsatisfactory results. Am I the only one who wants that?

 

Just me.

[Dglavko]

I cover my keyboard brands (nord, Kronos, mojo) too but have left the amps (Leslie, space station, qsc/ev) naked...

[timwat]

LOL. Actually, I do. Won't buy clothing with visible logos, either. It just rubs me the wrong way to pay for a product AND provide free advertising...Just me.

 

Not just you. I've gaffed or painted every logo on every major piece of gear I gig. The SS grill is now jet black.

[MathOfInsects]

I, too, do not wear logos.

 

And I cover nameplates and most other writing on my keyboards.

 

Must be a "type."

 

 

[cdom]

If you are a designer, trying to create something as attractive as possible within the bounds of function, would you put a name on it?

 

I am a designer. The answer to your question is YES. Aren't you trying to sell and market a product?

[Bill Spencer]

If you are a designer, trying to create something as attractive as possible within the bounds of function, would you put a name on it?

 

I am a designer. The answer to your question is YES. Aren't you trying to sell and market a product?

 

Of course, but if you are just trying to make it as attractive as possible, I doubt you'd choose to add a logo. My point being that, since I'm not being forced to display the logo, I can improve the appearance by masking it.

[cdom]

Actually, I WOULD choose to add a logo. You see, I'm a Graphic Designer by trade. I have this fascination for logos and their application to products and advertising. I dig them, I don't fear them.

 

 

[Bill Spencer]

Fair enough! You can save $$ on gaff tape.

[cdom]

Just as well, Bill. I'll bet people were just about fed up with this conversation and hoping we'd move this thread to another room.

 

Meanwhile, back at the SS3 Ranch...