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I passed on that because it takes more steps to set up and tear down, and wouldn't fit as well in my minivan. It does have some nifty options for accessories, though.

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Hi,

Looking at different stands to replace my On Stage KS 7350 for live use. I will be using this as a single tier seated (Kronos 61) and was wondering how well this stand would withstand being tossed in a trailer without a padded bag. I have also thought about the Gator Frameworks Platform stand, but worry about stability in this type of stand.

Thanks,

Bill


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I have the 18880 and 18881 - well built aircraft grade aluminum, but I wouldn't want to toss it in a trailer without padding. I do put it on my card with a couple of bungee cords, and put the cart in the van.

As our Brit friends would say, "there's too many 'twiddly-bits'."

I'm assuming from the trailer that a good bit of equipment is hauled (maybe for the whole band?). The main supports would just have the paint scratched, but the accordion type section that opens it up, and the upper support bar to hold it open might be a problem.

I also have the 2-tier version of the OnStage Z stand and the OnStage case for it. Putting the stand in the case takes a bit of time, and the whole thing weighs a LOT more than the K&M.


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Would the K&M fit in the On'Stage case?


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At a minimum, you'd need a rubber band or something to hold it closed (and if you use the brace, one to hold the brace, which might not fit if you use a low height. That is, the brace can lay against the leg if the stand is high enough, but not if it's low. This is fixable by making the brace short enough, but that also makes the stand narrower: don't slam down on the low keys!)

Many of the knobs you could turn inward so they don't stick out, which makes the whole package thicker and bouncier when collapsed, but protects more of the fiddly bits.

For a typical band van (I well remember what those did to my Rhodes) I'd rather use a case like the Onstage stand case.

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BTW, I'm pretty sure the brace does very little. You'd need a diagonal brace (or pair of them) to take much strain off the scissors braces. With the stand set up, I can't feel any difference in lateral stability with or without the brace. If I had a fish scale or strain gauge I'd measure how much difference it makes in stability.

It doesn't really change the freedom of motion, since the feet, once planted on the floor with any weight on the stand, don't tend to move. Nobody kicks my stand from the side. Since the feet don't move, the brace makes very little difference in freedom of motion, which is entirely side-to-side wobble. The only thing that resists that is the scissors brace, and adding any number of horizontal braces makes zero difference in that regard.

If I'm missing something, please point it out, and give a geometric argument.

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I need a 3 tier system. I can't order the 18881 until 4/30. I can get 18882s now.

I'm thinking of getting the 18880 and 2 sets of 18882s. That should work fine shouldn't it?


Last edited by CEB; 04/18/14 12:22 PM.

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Originally Posted By: CEB
Would the K&M fit in the On'Stage case?
If MBK will post the dimensions of the OnStage case, I can see if it'd fit. Do this before long; soon the 18880 will be in my car and rarely come back in the house.

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Originally Posted By: CEB
I need a 3 tier system. I can't order the 18881 until 4/30. I can get 18882s now.

I'm thinking of getting the 18880 and 2 sets of 18882s. That should work fine shouldn't it?


yes


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Originally Posted By: learjeff
BTW, I'm pretty sure the brace does very little. You'd need a diagonal brace (or pair of them) to take much strain off the scissors braces. With the stand set up, I can't feel any difference in lateral stability with or without the brace. If I had a fish scale or strain gauge I'd measure how much difference it makes in stability.

It doesn't really change the freedom of motion, since the feet, once planted on the floor with any weight on the stand, don't tend to move. Nobody kicks my stand from the side. Since the feet don't move, the brace makes very little difference in freedom of motion, which is entirely side-to-side wobble. The only thing that resists that is the scissors brace, and adding any number of horizontal braces makes zero difference in that regard.

If I'm missing something, please point it out, and give a geometric argument.

Jeff, allow me to recant my earlier statement. I think you're right here. When I made that post, I hadn't used my 18880 for a couple months so I was going from memory. When I set it up at a big band rehearsal last week, it became apparent that the horizontal brace doesn't do much to increase the side-to-side rigidity of the stand.

My best guess for the function of the brace is that it serves as a method to ensure the stand is set up consistently. It forces the scissor braces to be about perpendicular to each other, which maybe puts them in an optimal position for stiffness (if I get bored someday maybe I'll do a finite element analysis on this smile )

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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: CEB
I need a 3 tier system. I can't order the 18881 until 4/30. I can get 18882s now.

I'm thinking of getting the 18880 and 2 sets of 18882s. That should work fine shouldn't it?


yes


Thanks, I just order a new 3 tier stand. Cost more than the On-Stage but this should be the last stand I ever buy.


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Originally Posted By: RichieP_MechE

My best guess for the function of the brace is that it serves as a method to ensure the stand is set up consistently. It forces the scissor braces to be about perpendicular to each other, which maybe puts them in an optimal position for stiffness (if I get bored someday maybe I'll do a finite element analysis on this smile )
Good point! I hadn't considered that bit. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that's the optimal distance, or at least that it's where the stability starts to drop significantly. It's obvious that the least stability would be fully extended.

Originally Posted By: CEB
Thanks, I just order a new 3 tier stand. Cost more than the On-Stage but this should be the last stand I ever buy.
That's what I'm hoping! Of course, I can see buying another x-stand or two, to leave at rehearsal locations.

But why two sets of 18882 rather than 18881 and 18882? Do you have a use for open slots on the top tier? (Might be handy for an ipad or laptop stand.)

BTW, an extra stand is handy to have around at home too, for unpacking guitars from cases, or working on stuff. I use mine "off-purpose" quite a bit. Just remember not to put a shelf on it much longer than it extends, or someone will set something heavy on the end.

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I can't get the 18881. Have not found a retailer that has them in stock Thomann will have them on 4/30. The US distributor don't have any either.

I bought this from Europe. The US distributor says 'I would have to contact my favorite retailer who will contact Connolly who will contact K&M then Connolly could have them in 12 weeks.

Yesterday 8th Street Music had eight 18880 in stock but no tiers at all.

Last edited by CEB; 04/18/14 01:52 PM.

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Originally Posted By: learjeff
It's obvious that the least stability would be fully extended.

Actually, the least stability is when it's not extended at all. ;-)


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Learjeff,

The On Stage z carrying bag has the following dimensions:
Internal Height 16"
Internal Length 30"
Internal Width 8.75"

Can you tell me if it will fit the 18880?

I also noticed that there is a Roland branded folding Z that only weighs. 17 lbs and looks like it sets up quickly . It is not expensive, but no one had them in stock. Roland ,ks18z


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The K&M would not fit in the OnStage case - they are shaped quite differently. (I don't think - didn't go out to measure it, but the K&M parts IIRC are longer than the OnStage case.


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Does anyone know why these products aren't shown on the K&M web site?


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I don't know. At first I thought they were being discontinued but I see they are on the /en/ website. But not the /us/ website.

http://produkte.k-m.de/en/Keyboard-stands/Keyboard-tables

Last edited by CEB; 04/18/14 02:58 PM.

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Originally Posted By: CEB
I don't know. At first I thought they were being discontinued but I see they are on the /en/ website. But not the /us/ website.

http://produkte.k-m.de/en/Keyboard-stands/Keyboard-tables


Ah...so probably more an indication of IT problems than discontinuation. Thanks for the link.


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My 3 tier K&M setup is on the way. I hope the boards ride OK ok on this.

My concern is the Middle tier being deep enough. K&M says it supports a width of 17.71" The XK3c is 16". I also want the boards close tgether but need access to the S90XS controls.

.... I worry too much.


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Originally Posted By: Electro Fan
Learjeff,

The On Stage z carrying bag has the following dimensions:
Internal Height 16"
Internal Length 30"
Internal Width 8.75"

Can you tell me if it will fit the 18880?
Darn, sorry I missed this earlier. Next time I have it inside I'll check.
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: learjeff
It's obvious that the least stability would be fully extended.

Actually, the least stability is when it's not extended at all. ;-)
Hah! True!

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LeerJwff,

Thanks for checking on this. I may run out of time and buy it or something else before my gig next week. I wonder if a large Canvas bag like they sell at the Army Navy store would be good protection for the 18880 in a trailer ?

Bill


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The feet are about 23 1/2" long.
Without the 2nd tier, it's about 26" high on lowest setting, which is how it comes shipped. When I tried that it felt lower than standard keyboard height; too low for me but I could manage it sitting in on someone else's gig. I set it fairly high so I can sit or stand and play either/both boards (sitting on a cheapie stool (not sure whether it's 18" or 24"). Anyway, where I have it set it's 32" high without the tier.

A heavy-duty canvas bag would help a lot, but it depends on how well you can trust bandmates tossing stuff in. If they're methodical and follow instructions and you make sure the stand is packed last (or in a fairly safe place, such as between two keyboards) it would probably be OK. The biggest risks would be:

o Having it wedge in at an angle and then someone slamming a Rhodes in, bending it (wrecking it completely).

o Sliding something heavy in beside it but that something clips a knob on its way. To minimize the risk for this, I'd just put it together so all the knobs face inwards. It'd be 3 or 4 inches thicker but who cares? You can see below I have all the knobs facing outwards, since I load my own minivan and I want it thin. The knobs on the legs are how they are, but the ones on the sides can face either way (in or out).

I took some pics. You can also see where I put electrical tape to avoid clanging and scraping. I forgot to take pics of where I put tape around the ends of tubes that go into other tubes to avoid them clanging, but you should be able to guess that.



Here it is folded. It doesn't quite look like the picture we find when googling; the tiers were redesigned to allow variable angles, and due to that it won't collapse as low (but still as thin). In any case I don't loosen it to fold for travel. It could go lower but no need to fiddle with parts since it fits in my van.



I drilled two more holes in the tier so I could set the top tier 2 or 4 cm lower than the lowest factory holes allow. It's currently set up on the first of these, and you can see the other hole for lowest setting in some of the pics.




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Cool stand. What I might do is use velcro straps (the kind used for cables)to strap it rather than tape, use a quilted moving blanket to wrap it, then try always to set it on top as the last thing in the van.

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What I use is a couple of short bungee cords to keep it closed at minimum width, then a couple of longer bungee cords to tie it to the ATA case for the keyboard (which is tied with bungee cords to the RockNRoller extended cart). Then I put a JBL 12" speaker bag on top with all the cords, pedals, and other small stuff. Pick up one end, put in van, pick up other end, slide all the way in van. No outer cover for the 18880-18881, but I move all my stuff myself in my own transport.


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Cool -- I didn't realize until recently that it's feasible to get a B3 with Roll-R-Carry in and out of a van without help, but a local (great) player who looks like he weighs about 130 lbs does it, so it must be doable! If I'd known that way back when, maybe I'd have got over my resistance and gotten a Hammond. Today, I'm delighted to have convenient clones, though I do love a chance to play the real thing whenever it happens!

I don't use tape to hold it together. I only use electrical tape on it to keep surfaces from clanking against each other. Two cases: one is at the end of tubes that go inside other tubes. Without the tape, they rattle, which isn't an issue except that it bugs me. The other is where bolt head bump against each other when it's folded up.

I don't need any ties to keep it folded up. It stays that way just fine by itself, but it't not disturbed much where it sits in my van, and the stuff around it would keep it from spreading out anyway.

I haven't yet applied WD40 to where the parts slide as it opens and closes, but I think I'll do that today before I head out to play a blues jam. That's the tightest stage I play, and I'll try to remember to take pics.

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Full Compass does have the 18880 in stock occasionally. I got both of mine from FC when they were in stock ( the most recent was May 2...two days ago, but I must have got the only one because they are out again). I contacted FC at the beginning of April and the sales rep said they would be in at the end of April, so I kept checking the website and snagged one while it was in stock.
A friend of mine is a K&M rep and says it is tough to get retailers to stock the stands due to the price, especially when placed next to the much cheaper (less expensive) Onstage stands. But I love the 18880 for it's light weight, solid feel, and compact footprint.
The only negative of the stand for me is that it is not too convenient if you need to change the stand height often, which is why I wanted a second one. I originally got the stand to hold my Crumar Mojo, but if I want to use it for my FP-50 or MoXF8, I need to lower it from where it is set for the Mojo, which requires the provided wrench and some disassembly. But for the combination of ease of transport and support, the 18880 is worth the money to hold your expensive keyboards.

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I'm hoping mine is here this week.


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My solution to the second tier issue is a $5 one instead of the k&m option (which I have as well but don't use). Cut two pieces of a hockey stick in 8" sections and insert them into the back end where the k&m tier sits. Bought two hard plastic grey irrigation elbows from home depot and and slip over hockey stick ends. Insert matching 2" plastic electrical pipe (found this in my garage left over) into the elbows cut to fit. Spray paint black.

Numa organ sits on the bottom level. Nord stage 2-76 sits on top with front feet on the numa, back feet on the elbows/pipe.

Folds down like a dream. 5 seconds to set up.

And most important to me - it keeps the two keyboards very close.

None of that 5" between keyboards bs.

Will post pics if I can figure out how.

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