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#2586854 04/05/14 07:54 PM
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Well, I went over Purchasing Department's head and ordered a K&M 18880 stand in black, with a 18881 tier.

First impression is that it's a kick ass stand and I'm going to be really happy with it. It's a bit fussy to set up the first time, requiring a tool (flat little wrench, supplied) to set the height. Also, once set up, while it's quite stable, it *seems* a bit rickety, because some of the tubes rattle inside other tubes. I fixed that pretty quickly by wrapping the inner tubes (legs and tier) in a couple layers of electrical tape, and now it feels solid.

It's light as a feather. One worry I have is, if I put something like a Privia PX-5S and Nord Electro on it, will it bounce away from me, or blow over in a light breeze? (It's really that light.) We'll see; if it happens, it's solvable, but it would dig at me to add weight to the rig just to add weight! Since I'm still using my 55 lb XR76, I'm not worried.

It'll be replacing a pair of X stands: one heavy duty double-brace, and one heavy-duty single brace (which I turned upside down and hacked off what were originally the front "feet", using what were the back feet as the shelf arms, to get it to reach farther over my lower tier.) They're fast to set up, but bulky, heavy, and inconvenient to carry. The 18880 should be even faster to set up and tear down, and is nothing to carry.

I'm leaving the cross brace at home. It doesn't seem to be necessary, adds a few setup steps, and poses a minor transport issue I'd have to solve (probably with a rubber band.)

First live trial tomorrow night, at the Triangle Blues Society jam at Papa Mojo's Roadhouse.

Come by and sit in! The last two jams, I was the only keyboard player. (Before I started joining, they didn't have a keyboard player at all.) Plus I like to hear my rig when it's playing the right notes, for a change. smile

The Purchasing Department gave me a pass, since I've been a good boy two whole years, holding off replacing the nearly worn-out MR76. (We won't mention the Steinway grand just before that, but that was before our current cash flow crunch so it doesn't count! Plus I got a super bargain on that, thanks to Jimmy BluesKeys.)

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Folds up nicely, see below. That's with two additional tiers, but with the tiers collapsed vertically, and in this position, they'd slide out. I don't plan to collapse mine vertically; it fits just fine by just pushing the two sides together, closing the accordion brace.


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Like mine too (love the weight) but it's a bit low for me, even when sitting, and can't ever stand up playing it, and it looks rather unsubstantial, if looks matter. Any mods out there to boost the height?

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How would you feel about putting an 88 on top and two lightweights below? I'm trying to replicate my organ rig without the organ, as a backup.


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I've used one of these for the past 2 years -- first standing and then sitting. I think it's great -- super fast to set up, light to carry, and very solid.


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I purchased the same stand and tier add on recently. Not gigged with it yet. I need to try and accomodate a Kronos 76 and Nord C2D onto this. I am unsure as I type, which board is going to be on the bottom. The Kronos I believe is the heavier of the two and it would probably be unwise as a top tier board, making it top heavy.

Definitley retaining the brace, the only downside is it won't fold flat completely and standing against a wall has to be upside down.

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I've just ordered my second one of these. It's my second, because a) the accordion brace on my old one has distorted somewhat with much use, leading to it basically almost seizing up and b) I inadvertently lost a number of bits off it at a load-out in the dark one night. So I've decided to get another and cannibalise the old one for spares.

I've ordered the same again because there's really nothing else out there which is as convenient and light (and relatively quick to set up, too).

I also have the second tier which is on and off as required. Never had anything heavier than my PC361 on the top but it copes fine with an 88 on the bottom. I wouldn't worry about it blowing over, either.

The only vulnerability, in my experience, is that accordion mechanism. From experience, it appears to need a bit of babying. At the very least, I'd let it see some WD40 fairly regularly. For the same reason, I'd think twice about not using the cross-brace. It's a bit of PITA, as Gary notes, but it does add further stability to the structure and possibly protects the accordion mechanism from extra strain too.

And, from bitter experience, make sure everything is tightly screwed down on the thing before you load it out!


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I've been using the 18880 & 18881 combination for several years now. Got it while I had an Electro 3-73 - it seemed ridiculous for the stand to be heavier than the keyboard. I keep mine folded up with a couple of short bungee cords. Very well made, aircraft grade aluminum. It is a bit pricy, but there is nothing else on the market like it.

I've had the PC3 upper and PC3X lower on it several times, although the PC361 upper and PC3 lower is more common (or frequently just the PC3 lower and nothing on the upper tier).

If you leave the upper tier on all the time, you can re-mount the cross brace so it doesn't stick out longer than the rest of the stand.

This combo replaced my OnStage tabletop stand for single board gigs, and an OnStage 2-tier Z stand for double board gigs. I really like the Z stand in a fixed location, but it is too much trouble to fold up and move around all the time.

I've not had any problems with the accordion section - but I do "baby" it when opening and closing.


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Hello, I'm considering getting either the K&M 18880 or OnStage KS7365EJ stand. I like the ease of setup and weight for the K&M but was thinking of getting organ pedals like Hammonds Xpk-200L which are supposed to be 34" wide. The OnStage looks like it could handle that but I'm wondering what that's like to teardown and setup? K&M's width supposedly is 32.4". If I replaced the cross brace with a longer one (which would lower the stand also, I prefer 24" height for bottom board) do you think that's doable or would the OnStage be a better option?

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Jogger, I think that would make the stand far too low. I have the same Hammond pedals for my Mojo and have a Quiklok WS550 for that purpose. That's quite a wide stand when opened up and they only JUST fit under that.


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I guess you're right about the height I wasn't thinking about the space I would need for my legs moving up to play the pedals. Not sure why the pedals wouldn't fit or be tight they're listed 34 inches wide but maybe that's not correct?
thanks for your help

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Originally Posted By: jogger
K&M's width supposedly is 32.4". If I replaced the cross brace with a longer one (which would lower the stand also

Replacing the cross brace will not lower the stand. This is not like an X stand. There is no correlation between how wide you make it and how high it is; the height is fixed at your desired height no matter how narrow or wide you make it.

That said, there is no way to increase the K&M width to accommodate a 34" pedalboard. This has nothing to do with the cross brace (which can often be dispensed with anyway), it is simply beyond the maximum width that the scissor mechanism will permit.


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Well spotted Scott. I must be having a slow day!


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Originally Posted By: Dglavko
Like mine too (love the weight) but it's a bit low for me, even when sitting, and can't ever stand up playing it, and it looks rather unsubstantial, if looks matter. Any mods out there to boost the height?
Huh? It's very adjustable. I have it to about the middle of the height range, which is where I can play both tiers sitting or standing. I'm 6'1", and use a cheap folding stool (considerably higher than a chair, lower than a barstool -- 24" IIRC.)

Originally Posted By: WesG
How would you feel about putting an 88 on top and two lightweights below? I'm trying to replicate my organ rig without the organ, as a backup.
With 3 tiers? Hmmm. It'd be OK with a modern 88, but I might be hesitant with an older beast (60 lbs or more). When I get a chance I'll put my 55 pounder on top just to see (but I use only 2 tiers total, unlike either picture above.)

Originally Posted By: b3boy
Definitley retaining the brace, the only downside is it won't fold flat completely and standing against a wall has to be upside down.
I don't understand. At the height I have it set, after removing the brace from one side, it hangs down the right leg, and all I'd need is a rubber band to hold it -- and I'd only need that if I had it upside down (or to hold it while carrying). I believe you (or someone) mentioned this on another thread, and I didn't understand it then either. Now that I have one in hand, I'm totally confused. The crossbar attaches at the top, so why would you need to lean it upside down when collapsed?

Also, the brace has no impact on how thin it collapses. (I have the knobs and nuts that hold the tier facing outside so that it collapses thin. It might be wiser to have them face inward so they don't get knocked off, but the way I pack my car they should be safe.)



Originally Posted By: Aidan
I also have the second tier which is on and off as required.
I won't be removing the tier much. When I use a single tier, I'll probably use an X stand.

Quote:
The only vulnerability, in my experience, is that accordion mechanism. From experience, it appears to need a bit of babying. At the very least, I'd let it see some WD40 fairly regularly. For the same reason, I'd think twice about not using the cross-brace. It's a bit of PITA, as Gary notes, but it does add further stability to the structure and possibly protects the accordion mechanism from extra strain too.
Good point and thanks for the warning. I told my wife that this should be my "last stand" (pun intended, of course). Your advice may help me keep that promise.

Quote:
And, from bitter experience, make sure everything is tightly screwed down on the thing before you load it out!
No kidding! But I won't be loosening anything but the cross braces, and won't be tightening them when it's collapsed.

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: jogger
K&M's width supposedly is 32.4". If I replaced the cross brace with a longer one (which would lower the stand also

Replacing the cross brace will not lower the stand.
Correct, as always, Scott!
Quote:
That said, there is no way to increase the K&M width to accommodate a 34" pedalboard. This has nothing to do with the cross brace (which can often be dispensed with anyway), it is simply beyond the maximum width that the scissor mechanism will permit.
It does go considerably farther than the brace, though. I notice that the tiers I got are rather different than the ones shown above (they have adjustable tilt). There may be other differences in the stands over the years. I'll measure mine next chance I get and let you know, but it does go WAY farther than the brace. However, it'll be weaker at that width, too, due to the shallow angle on the accordions (I think ... didn't do the math!) But my guess is a Z stand is probably best for use with a big pedalboard.

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I very much like mine. I use it for gigging standing up. There is no problem with stability with a 50lb Yamaha S90XS.

The one downside to the stand would be that while the stand sets up and breaks down almost instantly. The height adjustment, if changed, would require a little bit of time to adjust. For this reason, I keep the stands height fixed and just use it to take with me gigging. At home I leave the K&M Omega fixed in a sitting position.


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Right: changing height requires tools and needs to be done where you can find a bolt, washer, or nut if you drop it. And it's a bit fiddly. With a drill press, it could be modified to take clevis pins, but it'd be a bit rickety: tightening the screws there helps solidify the stand. I think I nailed the height (guesswork since I didn't have my boards with me when I set it up). It's barely high enough to play the bottom board standing, and low enough so that both are comfortable sitting.

It worked great at the gig. As it turns out I did have to remove one tier arm, just because space was so tight on "stage". (In quotes because it's not elevated, and we moved one two-top to make room for me.) That turned out to be a quick operation.

During load-out there was more room and it wasn't necessary; the only issue there was the guitarist who thought that right behind my keyboards (where my stool was) was the best place for him to stash his guitars, and stand there fiddling with his bits while I'm waiting to get back there and finish packing up my rig!

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It is a good stand. I am careful with it, and it performs perfectly. I only have 2 tiers, and took the back brace off as soon as I got it and have never put it back on.

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I got mine last year with a second tier to start playing double tier, with the stage2-76 on bottom and the sk1-73 on top - relatively light boards (although the nord seems to be getting heavier by the day...) - coming from the nord screw on legs as well as a quiklok m91 - the k&m imho does not look as cool or solid as either of those two stand options - but - I got it because I was looking for the lightest most stable option and taking feedback on this forum into consideration - thanks everyone - and it is light! and it is quick to set up! and once set up with those boards, it is not only solid, but the whole setup with both short boards is compact and good looking!

it would be nice to have easier ability to adjust height and also to bring the two tiers closer together, although I am happy with mine at the lowest setting for both tiers - I do use a hydraulic rocnsoc stool and often adjust my stool height depending on which board I'm focused on and how I am feeling...

considering removing the cross brace based on above comments...

overall really liking it...


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All that's needed to bring the two tiers closer together is a drill press and the skill to use it (or a friend who has those). I'm considering that, but I find the current minimum distance is working well enough.

I'm tempted to shorten the tier arms so the top board sits farther back, but I won't do that for quite a while if at all.

The only instability is that there's a bit of lateral swing. Back when I was playing organ on a weighted board, palm smears would have been a nuisance, but with the Electro it's not a problem. (At first I did have to catch the Nord a couple times as it flew off the stand to the right during a too emphatic smear!) I noted the lateral bounce after setting it up, but didn't notice it during playing. That's without the cross-brace. Next gig I'll try it with the brace, just for comparison.

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I made my own second tier with a hockey stick (painted black, and cut to ab out 12 inches each) - as these fit perfectly in the tier slots. It's not quite a tier mind you as much as it is just a back support for the back end of my top keyboard (Nord Stage 2-76). The front end of the Nord sits on a Numa Organ.

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Where did you get the stand? Every place I look online has them as out of stock, or a 6-week back order.


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Waited about three months from mine - ordered it on line from B&H about a year and a half ago

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I bought from musicstandsalone - the web site does not show it out of stock. Even though they didn't list the second tier, an email to them resulted in my buying the tier also.


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Originally Posted By: New&Improv
Where did you get the stand? Every place I look online has them as out of stock, or a 6-week back order.
I bought mine from B&H. Took about 10 weeks from when I ordered it to it being delivered.

Originally Posted By: learjeff
All that's needed to bring the two tiers closer together is a drill press and the skill to use it (or a friend who has those). I'm considering that, but I find the current minimum distance is working well enough.
I did this on mine. I also had to trim the tubing because I have mine set up for seated playing, and the lower legs interfered with the 2nd tier (wouldn't let it sit low enough)

Originally Posted By: learjeff
I'm tempted to shorten the tier arms so the top board sits farther back, but I won't do that for quite a while if at all.
I'm planning on doing this with mine, as I found that I tend to place my upper board (Electro 4D) further back so I can see the interface of my lower board better (NP2 or Electro 3 73). And since I have modified the 2nd tier to be lower, the arms get in the way a bit as they extend over the lower board's keys somewhat.

Originally Posted By: learjeff
The only instability is that there's a bit of lateral swing. Back when I was playing organ on a weighted board, palm smears would have been a nuisance, but with the Electro it's not a problem. (At first I did have to catch the Nord a couple times as it flew off the stand to the right during a too emphatic smear!) I noted the lateral bounce after setting it up, but didn't notice it during playing. That's without the cross-brace. Next gig I'll try it with the brace, just for comparison.
As a mechanical engineer, I would suggest using the cross brace. Without it, you'll probably have a tendency to over-tighten the accordion brace (to make the stand set up stiff enough), which may lead to premature failure of your fasteners (specifically the plastic thumbscrews with metal thread inserts.

Last edited by RichieP_MechE; 04/08/14 09:09 AM. Reason: forgot a word
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Originally Posted By: New&Improv
Where did you get the stand? Every place I look online has them as out of stock, or a 6-week back order.
Thomann

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I ordered mine from a place I found on the web -- don't remember how: "Music Stands Alone". I tried another place first, but they refunded me due to not having any in stock. Then I tried MSA, and they replied that they didn't have any in stock but could have it to me by Apr 15 (about 8 weeks) and they'd give me a 5% discount. I wasn't in any hurry, so I jumped on it.

In both cases I paid via paypal and credit card, so I didn't have to give out CC info, and risked at most $50 -- which is why I won't give PayPal my bank account info!

Originally Posted By: Dglavko
I made my own second tier with a hockey stick (painted black, and cut to ab out 12 inches each) - as these fit perfectly in the tier slots. It's not quite a tier mind you as much as it is just a back support for the back end of my top keyboard (Nord Stage 2-76). The front end of the Nord sits on a Numa Organ.
Hah! The "hockey stick mod".

RichieP, thanks for your input. I suspect that if I drill holes to lower the top tier, I'll also want to cut the arms shorter, for just the reasons you mention. Not sure what you meant by "trim the tubing" though.

I do understand about the brace. As I said, I'll give it a shot next time.

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Originally Posted By: learjeff
RichieP, thanks for your input. I suspect that if I drill holes to lower the top tier, I'll also want to cut the arms shorter, for just the reasons you mention. Not sure what you meant by "trim the tubing" though.


Here's a crude graphic to explain what I mean. It's really only an issue if you want to play from a seated position.


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Every time someone starts a thread about this combo I look for one online. Never can find the 18881 in stock in the US.


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aha! I see now. Since I have mine set higher, that wouldn't be an issue for me. Thanks!

Rabid, you'll probably have to order it and wait 6 weeks like I did. But you can try Music Stands Alone -- maybe they ordered more than one when I got mine. If not, they'll give you a 5% discount!

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I did look at this stand, but thought that the K&M 18810 set may be a better buy. It is slightly more expensive (15 over here) and slightly heavier, but looks very solid. Also, there is no concertina to get damaged.

Still haven't made my mind up.


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