VR-09 Hints and Tips

[AnotherScott]

ToB3 - out of curiosity, what would you expect it to do? I don't know what it does, but my expectation would be that the damper releases immediately.

On a board with patch remain, I would expect the release of the damper pedal to behave just like the release of the keys... notes persist past the program change until both the keys and the pedal are released. If the function of the pedal changes, that makes no difference. The new patch wouldn't do anything with a pedal-up anyway (pedal-up either does nothing, or it does the reverse of a previously received received pedal-down which, in this case, never happened). So... switching from piano to organ with pedal down... piano note should hold through the patch change, release with pedal up or note release (whichever happens last), and if the operation of the pedal changes to rotary control with the patch change, rotary should toggle with next pedal down. In other words, a pedal-down/pedal-up behaves identically to a key-down/key-up.

 

HammondDave - what products do you own that don't have to re-use the effects circuitry from one sound to the next? What happens in them if you hold notes from two patches with different effects and go to a third?

I have a few that don't have to re-use the same fx circuitry, though the behavior is not identical among them.

 

On the Kronos, the way their SST (Seamless Sound Transition) works, the original effect stays with the first sound, and the new effect engages with the new sound. However, if you go to a third sound, the first sound will cut-off (not lose its effect, but rather cut off entirely).

 

On the Kurzweil PC3 series, the original effect stays with the first sound, and the new effect engages with the new sound, and this will work through a third and subsequent patch change as well... I believe, up until the available effects are exhausted (i.e. up to 16 total effects on a standard PC3 series, 10 on an LE version). However, this smooth switching does not apply to switching in and out of its KB3 organ mode. (Possibly because of its heavy use of effects.)

 

On a Yamaha MOX (and presumably Motif) in Song/Mix mode (the only mode that doesn't cut off sound completely when you invoke a patch change), if you select a sound with effects and switch to another sound with effects, the original effect stays with the first sound, and the new effect engages with the new sound, and this will work through a third patch change as well. The limitation is that, in this mode, you can't pick any sound at all, but you must select from among the up-to-16 sounds you have assigned to that Mix; and further, when you set that Mix up, you must specify which of the up-to-16 sounds will have effects and which will not. On the MOX, you can only put insert effects on up to three sounds. On the Motif, I believe you can go up to 8. But within the sounds you have assigned effects to, you can switch freely without losing any effects through patch changes. However, if you want to be able to pick any sound at all and switch to any other sound at all and not have the first sound cut out (regardless of effects), you can't do that on a Yamaha, while you can do that on a Kurz or Kronos.

 

As always, it's hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison between boards, because the architectures are so different. The Kurzweil is probably the most flexible board when it comes to effects (as it is in numerous ways). For example, compared to the MOX, with its maximum of one pair of insert effects per voice, on the Kurz, you can put a ton of effects on one sound, choosing to leave fewer available for others... but that great flexibility also leads to a bit of unpredictability here, because when holding keys between patch changes, you may not know whether you're going to use up all your effects or not with your next transition. And effects go more quickly because more things "count." i.e. EQ is an effect. The MOX can only put effects on up to 3 of the 16 sounds you may combine. But each insert effect is actually a pair of effects, and EQ doesn't count as an effect. So if you put two effects and EQ on each of two sounds on a MOX, you've used up two of your three available effects. If you put two effects and EQ on two sounds on a PC3, you've used up six of your sixteen available effects. But then, if you want to put another effect on one of your two MOX sounds, you can't, even though you haven't yet used your third available effect. On the Kurz, if you want to put more effects on those two sounds, you can, as long as you haven't used up your total of all available effects. I think I have that right. ;-) But I think this is getting to be too much of a digression from a digression...

 

add a "Paradise" option to the decay selections

What's that?

 

I think that in the next version of this product, they should add separate buttons for percussion harmonic selection and decay.

Yeah, that's an unfortunate (but somewhat understandable) concession to the low price of this one. But at least you get that functionality back if you run the iPad app.

[WesG]

Hey, Scott!

 

Thanks for the great explanations which give some insight into the architectures of boards "better" than what I've owned in the past. I've been dealing with effects glitching for so long that I never really thought about avoiding it. One takeaway there is that the internal bus architecture is a big deal for subtle functionality like that at the high end, and explains, for instance, part of the huge price difference between the MOX and the Motif line. It's corner-case functionality like that that can significantly increase production cost.

 

The Paradise switch - present in some form on the New B3 - is a non-decaying percussion. So named for Jimmy Smith's "Groovin' at Small's Paradise" album, which was recorded on an organ with this "feature" (mostly like a broken wire going to the K terminal on the AO-28). It can really make notes stand out, because the percussion harmonic is louder than 8, and they don't go through the chorus/vibrato scanner.

 

Tony Monaco demonstrates wonderfully in this exerpt from the Killer B3 documentary:

 

[video:youtube]

 

BTW, good point about the iPad app. I have already ordered the USB wifi thingy and a mike stand clamp; can't wait to try it!

[brenner13]

Just received this message forwarded to me by OV.

 

 

Dear all,

 

Yesterday, we released a system update for the V-Combo VR-09. For details, please see Roland's Support page below.

http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=downloads&p=VR%2D09&id=63055093

 

If you have any questions, please let me know.

 

Best regards,

 

Jun

 

Craig, thanks for posting that. I had trouble finding the update directly from the Roland blog and only found it using your link.

 

On a side note, after updating, while still searching for a goldilocks piano, I noticed the Mono Piano preset had a rather intrusive mid-range woof, much like what happens to any patch when the Overdrive is ever-so-slightly activated...sure enough...wiggling the OD knob and turning it all the way down brought that preset into a usable bandwidth...however I don't think it is mono anymore? Interesting.

 

[rien]

Craig, thanks for posting that. I had trouble finding the update directly from the Roland blog and only found it using your link.

Go to http://www.roland.com/ and navigate through products to the VR-09 page. Then select the support tab, and click on the link named "downloads".

[brenner13]

Brenner13, I'm looking forward to the update that allows the VR-09 to download individual sounds from the Roland library.. because I expect this will also allow us owners to exchange sounds, like this enormous Pipe Organ you're describing.. I would love to try it out!!

Someone mentioned way earlier, something about modifying a preset with the iPad app changes all registrations that use that preset. I haven't messed with it enough to know for sure so I chose a synth preset that I'll likely never use elsewhere: the very last selection under the SFX button is one called House Hit. In the app, I placed PCM's 172 Positive '8, 173 Pipe Organ, and 174 Cathedral Organ in the partials. Panned 172 slightly to the left and 173 slightly to the right. MFX is on CHORUS at 9 or 10 o' clock...it's fun to sweep that in and out for effect. Delay is 3TAP PAN DELAY at about 8 o'clock or 8:30...just enough to simulate echoes off of stone cathedral walls. Reverb is CATHEDRAL of course...about 1 o'clock or to taste. Twisting the tone knob to 3 o'clock really gives it some extra bite.

 

After raising the roof a while with all the stops out, it is neat to turn off two of the partials and leave the 172 Positive '8 for a nice little tranquil interlude, then bring everything back in for a window shattering finale.

 

Man, I love this keyboard!

 

ps. Check that volume LEVEL to about 7 or less.

 

pss. Please use this sound responsibly. Not liable for any mechanical or physical damages resulting from reckless use of this patch.

 

psss. DON'T FORGET TO SAVE YOUR HARD WORK TO A REGISTRATION.

[Ken Beaumont]

Upgraded mine yesterday, it was pretty easy. A lot easier than my old Juno D was! The thing about mine is I must have been lucky because mine never did the re-trigger thing others complained about.

[Craig MacDonald]

mine never did the re-trigger thing others complained about.

that's really strange.. are you sure you understand the problem (if you hold notes and change the program/registration to a new sound the notes would retrigger at full volume)?

 

Assuming yours really doesn't do this, there must have been two different engineering levels that left the factory.. that surprises me.

[Ken Beaumont]

No it never did. It would just stop playing the note, and when I released the key and pressed it again it would play the new patch that was selected. I saw a you-tube video describing the issue, I tried several times and couldn't duplicate it. In fact, I mentioned this in the original thread that devolved in to a gripe fest at points. I'm happy as can be about the other fixes!

[sizzlemeister]

I'll have to confirm, but I think mine doesn't retrigger as well, I think it just stops.

 

I haven't updated the software yet, so I will check that before I do.

[To B3]

Does the leslie speed control work well when assigned to the mod lever and the dbeam, when splitting the keyboard? I tend to use a lot the speed change to add drama/modulation, movement and emphasis to the parts I'm playing... and always used to assign that function to the footswitch on my previous clones... Does it take to much adaptation, does it responds well? Or in my case, it's better to sacrifice the sustain pedal on the pianos (play rock/blues/funk/soul) and keep the speed change on the FS?

[brenner13]

Leslie control is a breeze...even better now that the rotary off with the mod stick can be switched off in the menu with the update. For my organ registrations almost always have the D-beam, joy stick, and expression pedal set to control speed so there lots of choices depending how busy my playing is. I too, constantly switch the speed while playing...never leave it on fast very long.

 

I rarely use splits with organ other than an occasional jazz split with two organs.

[Craig MacDonald]

I always have the organ on top of any split, so for me expression is always on for the upper part so I can weave organ in and out independent of the lower part. I generally have piano, EP, or strings on the lower part, so I leave the expression turned off for lower (I use touch to control the volume of thes parts), and I have the damper set on for the lower part so I can hold strings etc. and I have the joystick and d-beam for Leslie speed control.... All this works perfectly. I also appreciate the new parameter to turn off the Leslie off/on for the joystick, as I have accidentally turned off the Leslie sim a number of times..

 

Thes updates are great.

[To B3]

Ah, I misunderstood the pitch lever situation that happened previously: on the old OS, it turned the leslie sim ON and off, not just alternating the speeds...

 

One thing that i forgot to ask: how do the fast trigger keyboard (that i assume is default on organ sounds) work when splitting or layering it with a piano? Organ hits first or both are automatically set to sound when pressed all the way?

 

All in all, the updates look great.... Looks like Roland listened (at least a little bit the users) when doing the update... would it work to organize a formal list of sugested updates for a next round? Of course, doable things and things that most people can identify with their use would be preferrable... a new thread on that, maybe, to keep things organized? What do you think, is it workable or is it too much to ask?

 

[brenner13]

Roland pitch paddles generally have modulation assigned when you push forward on the stick. When using organ this motion turned off the rotary sim with no way to override that assignment in version 1.00. My first gig with my VR09 seemed that every time I even touched the pitch stick the rotary would shut off. That's when I started using the D-beam for fast/slow and then later adding the expression switch for that duty as well. Now that I have that switched off I think I'll try the expression pedal for expression again, especially with the new enhancement.

 

As for the quick trigger function...near as I can tell (and I could be wrong) it seems you lose the the quick fire function when a non-organ preset is LAYERED with an organ one. However it appears the quick fire remains on the organ when splits are implemented. Again, someone might correct me if they find it differently.

 

Perhaps the Roland Blog is the better place to make requests for further update enhancements? I'm slightly surprised that this update did not enable individual registrations to be saved and loaded and really hope they are still working on it.

[agitato]

Craig (and Jim Alfredson), how do the synth pad ,synth bass/lead, string,and other extra sounds available for and already in the sk1, compare with those in the vr09, disregarding all the organs, which are more than likely better (as supposedly also would be the keybed) in the sk? Also realizing there would be no pitch/mod controller(s) in the sk.

[WesG]

Fwiw - don't count the keyed in the VR09 out until you have tried it. I like it a lot for palm glissandi and smears. The key profile was clearly designed for this. It is much better than Hammond's diving-board organs, and the high trigger point totally rocks.

 

I have no opinion on modern Hammonds as I haven't played any.

[brenner13]

Agreed about the new V-Combo's keybed. Admittedly, I was rather disappointed on unboxing day with the plasticky keys but months later I've come to appreciate how fast and precise leads can be played and how effortless arpeggios are. It is somewhat reminiscent of my old Hammond M-III but less springy and smoother. Glissandos are very easy and have become a second nature technique with the VR09.

 

I've only spent about 5 minutes in the music store with the SK1, and that was wholly with one very nice and payable organ patch so cannot make any comparison with the other sounds, but can attest the VR09's synth sounds are quite good and pads are lush and instantly layer and split-able.

[To B3]

Synth keys never stopped my b3 glissandos before, on older clones.... I guess that with the fast trigger would make a very responsive keyboard for organ, maybe better than my NE2 that has waterfall, but no fast trigger.... And maybe the action is a good fast clav action too, no? Is there a possibility to assign the fast trigger to clav sounds too? If only it had the pedal wah option too... Roland, are you there??

[Craig MacDonald]

Craig (and Jim Alfredson), how do the synth pad ,synth bass/lead, string,and other extra sounds available for and already in the sk1, compare with those in the vr09, disregarding all the organs, which are more than likely better (as supposedly also would be the keybed) in the sk? Also realizing there would be no pitch/mod controller(s) in the sk.

 

Agitato, I have to tell you that the VR-09 sounds are all equal or better than the SK1/2. Roland has been building it's library of sounds and synths for many more years than Hammond, so as you would expect, overall, they are much better. In some cases, depending on your taste, you might argue that individual sounds are better on one than the other, for example some might like the clavinet on the SK better, some might prefer the VR-09. However, overall I would assess the VR-09 sounds as superior to the SK series.

 

Here are the main reasons that I think the extra voices/sounds are superior on the VR-09:

 

1. The VR-09 can layer two non-organ sounds, so it can split or layer electric piano and strings for example, and the SK cannot do this, because one of the splits/layers MUST be organ.

 

2. The VR-09 has a far superior library/pallet of sounds, for example real Jupiter strings, warm lush real strings, where as the SK1/2 simply has no warm strings of any kind on board (very surprising).

 

3. The VR-09 has a built in General Midi synth so you have access to the entire GM list of sounds (the SK1/2 does not have a built in GM synth)

 

4. The VR-09 has a built in Virtual Analog synth that is fully editable via iPad editor, and this is the same synth that is in their flagship Jupiter 80 synth (albeit limited to 3 oscillators). This simply blows away the limited synth samples in the SK series. It also allows you to create sounds using over 360 PCM waves in the VA synth (the SK series has no sound creation capability beyond basic modification of it's existing sounds).

 

So there is my perspective on the VR-09 sounds vs the SK1/2 sounds.. hands-down the VR-09 has far better sounds overall, superior multi-timbral capability, and sound creation capability.

 

The keybed is obviously better in the SK1/2 because it is a waterfall keyboard, but the VR-09 is quite playable from my perspective (some might argue this). I took my VR-09 over to another seasoned keyboard players house last night and he was quite impressed with the VR-09 and he thought the keyboard was quite playable, and he said he's probably going to buy one (and this is another guy like myself who owns real hammonds and has played and owned every kind of clone!).

 

There is no question that the SK1 is a great organ but in my opinion the other sounds are a compromise, and the fact is that both keyboards are a compromise.. with the SK you're compromising on the extra sounds and on the VR-09 you're compromising somewhat on the organ. However, I personally don't think that the compromise on the organ with the VR-09 is anywhere near as big as the compromise on the extra sounds in the SK series. So if I had my choice as an all-in-one I would choose the VR-09 even if it was the same price as the SK1. For my classic rock band the VR-09 is a much more capable all-in-one, AND I've saved myself a lot of cash. For the record I owned an SK and returned it, and one of the reasons was due to my dissatisfaction with the extra voices. I purchased the VR-09 at half the price I paid for my SK1, and I am much happier with it.

 

FYI, I don't think that Jim is monitoring this thread. As a Hammond sponsored artist, he's a pretty busy guy, and I think he mostly monitors Hammond related threads, so I wouldn't expect an answer from him on this thread.

 

One last point.. don't underestimate the importance of a joystick or pitchbend modwheels, in an all-in-one keyboard.. what is a synth lead without pitch bend and modulation!!! From my perspective if you include the sounds of instruments (acoustic or electronic) whose pitch may vary as part if the playing technique, you should include a controller for this! No pitchbend/modwheel or joystick is a huge oversight in the SK series.

[Craig MacDonald]

Synth keys never stopped my b3 glissandos before, on older clones.... I guess that with the fast trigger would make a very responsive keyboard for organ, maybe better than my NE2 that has waterfall, but no fast trigger.... And maybe the action is a good fast clav action too, no? Is there a possibility to assign the fast trigger to clav sounds too? If only it had the pedal wah option too... Roland, are you there??

ToB3 the answer is NO.. the organ triggers from the first contact/trigger because no velocity information is required.. that's basically the quick trigger mode and it can do this because the organ is just an off/on sound that doesn't require any velocity information. Instruments that require velocity, like the clavinet, require both triggers/contacts.. they trigger from the lower contact, and use the time between first/upper contact and second/lower to determine velocity. So you could trigger the clav from the upper trigger point but you'd have no velocity and what would a clav be without velocity..

 

For the record I don't agree with Brenners suggestion that when the organ is layered with a velocity sensitive instrument the organ loses it's quick trigger mode.. I'm going to see if I can test it.. it should be easy to determine if the organ triffers from the upper or lower contact point. Personally I see no reason for them to change the way the organ triggers in a layer or split. I'll check this later, and report back if I can figure it out.

[WesG]

I haven't verified it personally (and the VR-09 is in my van right now and it's raining), but IIRC the owner's manual explictly says that layering with a non-organ voice loses the fast trigger.

 

Which sucks. Fast trigger is simply awesome. That said, I don't layer with organ much. I usually play either organ or other stuff, although I do sometimes do organ + piano splits. This is likely because I'm used to gigging a weighted piano and tonewheel spinet. The VR-09 sure makes rehearsing easier.

[To B3]

What about splits? Does the organ sound loses the fast trigger too when splitted with pianos/EPs/Clavs?

 

Craig, very informative post about the SK1 and VR09 comparison... still havent played any of them, but what you said is my impression of them, "from a distance". If only overdrive and tone/compresson could be independently on the lower voice too....

[Craig MacDonald]

Ok, if the manual says so then I stand corrected (and except for last night my VR-09 has been in its gig bag for over a month).. I won't be using anything layered with organ until they update the OS.so the other instrument doesn't go through the Leslie.

 

In my case I use splits with organ, exclusively.

[HammondDave]

Yeah... That may be true... But it doesn't say "Hammond" on the back and as we all know, all the others are just "clones"... Lol

 

I am very happy for all the VR-09 owners and players that their wishes have been fulfilled. I hope Roland does continue to update this organ, but my guess is that they have done all they can within the limitations of the hardware.

 

There were many compromises made in the design to reach that price point. Funny that I have heard little about the lack of aftertouch in the keyboard, what I would think would be a must for some synth sounds. But again, many players don't use it so why add more to the price?

 

One thing I have always disliked about many synths was replacing the pitch bend wheels with that stupid joystick. Korg did this for many years, and now Roland as well... I am an old Mini Moog guy and I could never warm up to the joystick technique. I was glad that Hammond used PM wheels on the XK3. Hated that they left them off of the SK series. Thank god my motif has them! Guess I am a dying breed. D-Beam? Pssshahhhh!

[agitato]

Craig, thanks for the detailed reply. One more question, does the vr09 have the 4 different clav sounds, ie the four pickup/eq settings of the actual clav?

[tucktronix]

D-Beam? Pssshahhhh!

 

+1 Agreed!! I could never get to like the D-beam on my Juno-G. It just looks dorky waiving my left hand in the air while playing keys with my right hand.

[To B3]

Agitato, by the patch list on the downloadable manual, I can see the following: Clav 1, Clav 2, Phase Clav 1, T-Wah Clav, Comp Clav, BrillClav DB, Pulse Clav, Phase Clav 2, Clav 3 and Velo Clav. Only the BrillClav BD is represented by a name that sugests a certain pickup combination... But by what Craig and other owners sugested, it's possible to at least aproximate the pickup sounds using tone/compression/cutoff... Only thing that they don't retain that changes when using them on splitted or layered sounds... In that case you're stuck withe the presets...

[Craig MacDonald]

D-Beam? Pssshahhhh!

 

+1 Agreed!! I could never get to like the D-beam on my Juno-G. It just looks dorky waiving my left hand in the air while playing keys with my right hand.

 

I bought the Sweetwater sound set for my GAIA synth a while back and it had a patch for the tweeting synth sound in the bridge of Frankenstein by Edgar Winter. The patch was programmed to use the D-beam to affect the filter and it allowed me to take the tweeting sound from high pitched tweet to a very low almost kick-drum effect.. It was very cool, and it allowed me to stand up and show off a bit for the audience which was cool (normally I sit quietly behind my keyboards while my singer and guitar player make funny faces and jump around ). It was nice to get up and do something that looked kind of magical.. (and make people wonder how'd that guy do that??)

 

Beyond using the D-beam for effects like this, I honestly have little use for it.. although when I'm using the VR-09 I have it set up to control the leslie, and I sometimes use it for that.

[Craig MacDonald]

Agitato, by the patch list on the downloadable manual, I can see the following: Clav 1, Clav 2, Phase Clav 1, T-Wah Clav, Comp Clav, BrillClav DB, Pulse Clav, Phase Clav 2, Clav 3 and Velo Clav. Only the BrillClav BD is represented by a name that sugests a certain pickup combination... But by what Craig and other owners sugested, it's possible to at least aproximate the pickup sounds using tone/compression/cutoff... Only thing that they don't retain that changes when using them on splitted or layered sounds... In that case you're stuck withe the presets...

 

To B3 this is absolutely correct.. for not yet owning one of these things you're getting pretty smart.. !! I give you 5 stars for this answer.. ;-)

 

Just one thing to add to this.. you CAN create/approximate the various pickup combinations and save them as registrations though, so they are available to you at any time... AND I believe that if you save them on the upper side of the split/layer they will retain their effects, including tone controls etc.. (disclaimer.. I haven't tested this, my comments are based on my understanding of how the VR-09 works)..

 

I really need to get my VR-09 out and start playing with it.. I had it out a few days ago to quickly update the OS and last night again to show it to a friend and that's it in the last month.. (but I have a good excuse I got married and had my honeymoon and all that)..

[Craig MacDonald]

Yeah... That may be true... But it doesn't say "Hammond" on the back and as we all know, all the others are just "clones"... Lol

 

I am very happy for all the VR-09 owners and players that their wishes have been fulfilled. I hope Roland does continue to update this organ, but my guess is that they have done all they can within the limitations of the hardware.

 

There were many compromises made in the design to reach that price point. Funny that I have heard little about the lack of aftertouch in the keyboard, what I would think would be a must for some synth sounds. But again, many players don't use it so why add more to the price?

 

One thing I have always disliked about many synths was replacing the pitch bend wheels with that stupid joystick. Korg did this for many years, and now Roland as well... I am an old Mini Moog guy and I could never warm up to the joystick technique. I was glad that Hammond used PM wheels on the XK3. Hated that they left them off of the SK series. Thank god my motif has them! Guess I am a dying breed. D-Beam? Pssshahhhh!

 

Who cares about aftertouch..? Not me.. ;-)

 

Yes for the most part I think we're all pretty pleased that the most pressing issues have been resolved.. I think that the percussion going through the C/V needs to be fixed, and I would love to have the layers fixed so that instruments layered with organ don't go through the leslie sim.. but I can work around these things.. the big fix for me was the expression pedal.

 

I was like you with respect to joystick vs modwheel/pitchbend wheels (and I loved having them on my BX3) but subsequently I've gotten used to the joystick and I love the ability to grab it and introduce pitchbend and modulation simultaneously (the obvious advantage to joysticks) without having to do so using two different controllers. The only disadvantage of the joystick, that I see, is the fact that it always returns to zero unlike a modwheel which stays where you leave it.. so you can use this to introduce a specific amount of modulation (for example overdrive) and leave it there until you want to change it.. However, most of these new keyboard have no shortage other controls that can be used for this that I see the modwheel as rather redundant these days. We all have different opinions on this and there is no right or wrong.

 

Don't get me started on the Hammond thing..