OT: Dec. 7, a day that will live in infamy

[Pappy P]

I was watching Pearl Harbor on DVD last night, then it Hit Me. Dec. 7th is the anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

 

I was watching Pearl Harbor by accident, so I felt really guilty for forgetting.

 

I realized that my local paper did not mention the anniversary this year.

 

Please tell me that your cities new paper remembered to remind you.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Detroit did remember!

[picker]

Kansas City remembered, on TV news, anyway.

[Caevan O’Shite]

It's good to remember, but it's not so bad to forget, in a manner of speaking. Don't kick yourself too hard, a smoothed-out return to normalcy- where it could be easy to forget wars past- would be among what our veterans rose to the task for, what some fell for.

 

Much healing and closure and change has happened since that day, hopefully these will temper rememberance for a common good.

[miroslav]

Yeah...after 64 years...it's not so unusual to start forgetting...

...especially since we've had a positive/proactive relationship with Japan...

...for that last 50 years!

 

My Dad, while he was alive...could never learn to "like" Germans or anything from Germany.

He would always admit that all my VWs were great little cars...but he said he would never own a German car.

Hey...he lived through some severe German occupation during the war...and watched a lot of his friends/neighbors get put up against a wall...

 

I use to tell him that it was time to let it go...though I knew he never would...

 

In another 10 years WWII will start to fade, because most of the people that were alive then will have passed awaythough I dont thing Jewish people will ever be able to let it fadeand thats not too unusual.

[fantasticsound]

I don't get the local papers, but I only realized quite by accident yesterday that it was the anniversary of Pearl Harbor.

 

Over Thanksgiving weekend I was at my inlaws' home and watched a great documentary that attempted to correct several popular notions about Pearl Harbor. It was amazing. For one thing, even the one American pilot who was credited with downing a zero that day (IIRC, he was the only flier to make it airborne.) claimed it would have made no difference had they received word quickly from radar/tracking station to chain of command to pilots. Most of the planes were not ready to fly, the Zero was a superior plane, they had us outnumbered over 3 to 1 IIRC. Frankly, our pilots on the island, by and large, were not well trained at that time.

 

Between this and the fact many sailors were not aboard their ships it is believed we would have suffered a worse defeat had we engaged them at sea because loss of ships and planes would have been great and more lives would have been lost had those ships sunk with all hands on deck and pilots in the destroyed planes.

 

The key to our rebound? Aircraft carriers (as Pearl Harbor clearly demonstrated) had become the new supreme weapons of the Navy. Battleships were easy targets for an air attack. Where were our aircraft carriers? Out at sea and on no one's radar. There was to be a third wave to Pearl Harbor, but the Japanese admiral called it off because the prime targets, the American aircraft carriers, were not present and accounted for. Because the attack had arrived in 2 waves, with a suspected third wave to come, we lost 2 or 3 pilots to friendly fire because the aircraft carriers and their planes couldn't contact anyone at Pearl Harbor to find out what had happened. The scout planes were fired on and at least 2 fliers died.

 

They also profiled the little known story of 5 Japanese mini-subs that were suicide missions intended to bring two torpedos each into Pearl Harbor, something a normal sub was far to large to do, submerged, in the channel.

 

Very interesting stuff. I encourage everyone to find this show, as it provides great insight into one of the defining moments in American history.

 

May all the victims and survivors find peace, wherever they may be.

[picker]

Originally posted by miroslav:

In another 10 years WWII will start to fade, because most of the people that were alive then will have passed awaythough I dont thing Jewish people will ever be able to let it fadeand thats not too unusual.

Well, time passes and old wars and the reasons for them fade, first into nebulous general enmities, and then into ancient history, unless they are preserved (or picked at like a scab). New wars and new hatreds tend to replace them, I guess. I hope the Jewish people of the world never have their memories of the Holocaust replaced with new atrocites in the present or future.

[Gifthorse]

I always think of it because my Dad was in the pacific theater. Alot of people don't realize what the Japanese did during the war. My girlfriend is Taiwanese and she said Chinese and Taiwanese still hold negative feelings toward the Japanese because of what they did on mainland China. The Rape of Nanking. They murdered 150,000 women and children, making the boys have sex with their mothers sisters etc. Horrible atrocity. WWII was the first war Japan ever lost. War is terrible and we are all guilty of atrocities.

 

We and the allies have Dresden. That is our Nanking. Fire bombed the exterior of the city for 2 days creating a vacuum sucking out the oxygen killing 150,000 women children and old people. It was at the end of the war too, after the allies had pretty much won it. I realize how much anger and resentment the British had though. Germany had already ASKED for it I guess.

 

My best friend's father in law liberated Dachau if thats how you spell it. He said they went in there and when they saw what the Germans did they machine gunned every officer in sight without discussion. He has pictures of it. Or HAD pictures, he died last year. He was in the famous Rainbow division.

 

My Dad was on Iwo Jima for 10 months. He said it sucked. Ugly island with nothing on it except 27,000 dead bodies. The stench was pretty severe I guess. He just turned 82 last week. He said he that they captured 2 Japanese soldiers (back when soldiers had uniforms), and they put a hand grenade in between them and blew each other up. He said it was really gross with stomachs and intesines all over the place. Hari Cari I think it is called.

[Tone Taster]

My Dad is a Vietnam Vet, My Great, Great Uncle fought in Korea.

 

All those who died should be honored.

 

However, there is a darker side after an overwhelming number of documents were declassified concerning Pearl Harbor

 

The infamy may very well be rooted in FDR & Japanese complicity

http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

[PBBPaul]

My dad was in during Korea and all of my uncles were in WWII. I heard many stories about both the European and Pacific theaters. Im happy to say that my local paper had a reminder on the front page.

 

On another note, I was talking to my 9 and 12 year old boys about the significance of Pearl Harbor ad how it marked our entry into WWII. My older son asked, "Aren't we in World War three now?"

 

I think my generation (tail-end boomer) and younger are clueless about what it meant to be in that war.

[PBBPaul]

My dad was in during Korea and all of my uncles were in WWII. I heard many stories about both the European and Pacific theaters. Im happy to say that my local paper had a reminder on the front page.

 

On another note, I was talking to my 9 and 12 year old boys about the significance of Pearl Harbor and how it marked our entry into WWII. My older son asked, "Aren't we in World War three now?"

 

I think my generation (tail-end boomer) and younger are clueless about what it meant to be in that war.

[Tedster]

I watched the Arizona blow up for the 8500th time yesterday on the History Channel.

 

Not to take anything away from the solemnity of the occasion, but, every time I turn the History Channel on, the Arizona is blowing up.

 

MODERN MARVELS..."Brand new bridge building technology". (clip of Arizona blowing up) (Announcer:) "December 7th, 1941, the nation is

plunged into war...and as a result, new bridge construction techniques are discovered"

 

HISTORY'S MYSTERIES..."The disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa"...(clip of Arizona blowing up) (Announcer:) "December 7th, 1941, the nation is plunged into war, and a young Jimmy Hoffa is rising in the ranks of the Teamsters' Union"..

 

Good grief.

 

On a serious note, hats' off to the people who gave their lives so long ago.

 

We'll never forget.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Yeah, WWII and its outcome was one of the most crucial points in human history. It certainly had a huge and ongoing impact on the times to follow, world-wide, right up to the present.

 

The more I read and learn about it, the more amazed I am at just how easily things might have gone very differently, with very dire consequences. There were quite a number of close turning-points.

 

I did not mean to be trite about the attack on Pearl Harbor in my previous post, by the way. Simply saying that sometimes it's good that a wound heals to the point of fading with little pain.

[picker]

Originally posted by Caputo:

The infamy may very well be rooted in FDR & Japanese complicity...

You wanna what really sucks? I read a book by William Manchester some years ago, and he laid it out like this; Japan went to war with the US because, by economic pressure, we were keeping them form establishing the East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, an economic entity that would've enabled them to compete better economically in world markets. We did it to protect American interests in the Pacific, and maintain our dominant position there. They didn't like us holding them back and they declared war.

 

After the war, the Japanese went ahead and established the East Asian Co-Prosperty Sphere (without calling it that) anyway, and financed it with American reconstruction money(call it guilt money for Hiroshima & Nagasaki). If you look today at the islands we took back from them in the 40's, and then look at who owns the local infrastructure on them now, and who is collecting the profits off of local industry and agrarian endeavors, you'll see that they have everything they set out to take by military force.

We gave them everything they they wanted in the first place, and which American servicemen died to keep from them.

Talk about a head-scratcher...

[Hardtail]

I always watch Tora, Tora, Tora on December 7th. Good flick.

[LPCustom]

My mother says my grandmother (her mother) went ballistic when she heard that the Arizona had been sunk. She thought my uncle L.B. had been killed since he was assigned to the Marine detail on board. But his troop ship was still several hours from Pearl when the attack happened. So he never reported for duty onboard. He sent my grandmother a telegram when he got to Pearl to tell her he was alive and okay.

 

They'd heard almost nothing aboard ship except that Pearl Harbor and Hickham Field had been attacked by Japan and that a state of war existed between the US and Japan. They were told to put on their life preservers in case there were Japanese subs in the area (there were).

 

He fought in nearly every major engagement of WWII in the Pacific (including Iwo Jima). He also fought in Korea and did a (non-combat) tour in Vietnam. I always have been and still am very proud of my uncle L.B. I still get chills from some of the stories he told.

 

When he died they gave him a full military burial. 21 gun salute (7 riflemen), flag draped coffin, 6 Marine pall bearers in their dress blues; the works. It was impressive.

 

My mom has a very old picture of him and my aunt taken right after Korea in 1953. He was wearing his class A uniform with all of his medals on it and his Master Gunnery Sergent stripes. That was pretty impressive, too. Especially for someone who was only 33.

[Hardtail]

LPCustom,

 

There's a great book I want to recommend to you. It's called "Battle History of the U.S. Marines" by Joseph Alexander.

[Dr. Ellwood]

I gunna try to get a hold of my cousin Bill who lives in the Sioux Michigan. His dad, my uncle bill was the skipper on a Liberty Ship that ran the New York to London run carrying supplies and personnel for the war effort. He and his ship mates have some great in action photos of other ships in their group being torpedoed, he had 56 runs across and never got hit! He was asked to take these ships across because he was the skipper of US Steel ore carriers on the Great Lakes and volunteered for the Merchant Marine service. My other uncle on my moms side was aboard a destroyer and has tons of battle pictures from battles like the Coral Sea and the Mariannas Islands campaigns. If I can get these I will post them for the guys that are interested.

[Tedster]

Originally posted by Picker:

We gave them everything they they wanted in the first place, and which American servicemen died to keep from them.

Talk about a head-scratcher...

Like the line from the movie "Die Hard"...where the Japanese boss is talking and says "We couldn't take you over with guns, so we did it with tape decks..."

[caprae]

[Eric Iverson]

OK, let's honor the war heroes, and remember the victims of the Holocaust. That's fine.

 

But there's a time to move on, too. And the fact is, the world is a better place because people HAVE done so! Case in point: a Jewish friend of mine told me that Germany is about the best friend Israel now has!

 

And sure, we've been competing with Japan economically, and are going to be so in a major way with India and China in the next few years, and quite possibly Brazil also. We will see how much of the talk about the values of "free trade" etc. stands the test of time...

 

An old saying, "it all depends on whose ox is gored!" Or whose pocketbook is affected!

 

But economic competition is surely better than the bloodshed of armed conflict!

[Gifthorse]

I think everyone has moved on from WWII. It happened a long time ago.

 

But we should never forget what happened. The holocaust was unimaginable before it happened. We must always be aware of history or it will repeat itself.

[LPCustom]

Originally posted by KPB:

LPCustom,

 

There's a great book I want to recommend to you. It's called "Battle History of the U.S. Marines" by Joseph Alexander.

Thanks for the tip on the book, KPB. My uncle L.B. gave me that book for Christmas in 2002. It's a great book. He also gave me the book "Chesty" about Lt Gen Lewis Puller. Both books are a good read. I also have all the WWII books by Stephen Ambrose.

 

My great uncle Addison (my paternal grandfather's kid brother - he was 18 in February of 1944 - his birthday and my father's are the same day) was part of the landing force for Omaha beach. Part of the Big Red 1, I think. No one in his unit made it out of his Higgins boat alive. It was his first combat assignment.

[Hardtail]

LPCustom,

 

It is a good book, isn't it?

 

I don't have "Chesty". Maybe I'll get that one.