OT: Fallen Idols

[DC Ross]

You know, fantasticsound, the more I read from you, the more respect I have for you. No, I'm not sucking up

 

The more I read from you, revo, the less respect I have for you If I remember correctly, you're 18, correct? I remember when I was 18, I was caught up in the stereotypical punk ideologoy, too. Don't worry, you'll eventually outgrow it.

[revorhythm]

yeah im 18, and yes ill prolly grow out of it. but i gotta question who does everyone else idolize?

[ihategarybettman]

Commitment to societal issues, questioning of authority, antipathy toward slick corporate music, daring to dress/act in a manner outside of what's considered "normal", an intense approach to life - why would anyone want to outgrow all stereotypical punk ideological attributes?

[Guitar55]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

yeah im 18, and yes ill prolly grow out of it. but i gotta question who does everyone else idolize?

First step to growing up is learning how to spell "probably".

[Chad Thorne]

Originally posted by gfred611:

Originally posted by chad:

Important to remember that people we idolize are people, too. I, as an evangelical Christian, have encountered this a few times. Jimmy Swaggert. Jim Bakker. Andrae Crouch, a wonderful gospel composer whose music I love, busted with cocaine some years ago.

Actually, the cocaine charges were dropped against Andrae Crouch for lack of evidence. The "cocaine" in his car turned out to be powdered chicken soup from his Dr. prescribed diet plan...

I'm so glad to know that, I'd never heard it! All I ever heard about was the bust...

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by ihategarybettman:

Commitment to societal issues, questioning of authority, antipathy toward slick corporate music, daring to dress/act in a manner outside of what's considered "normal", an intense approach to life - why would anyone want to outgrow all stereotypical punk ideological attributes?

Ya been there too believe it or not! I can remember when it all started to change too..I think it was the first time after getting married, going to the grocery store at the checkout line to pay for it all! Shocked me right into reality. It will all change and change again, enjoy the cloud while ya can still sit on it, nothing wrong with that feeling, enjoy.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by ihategarybettman:

Commitment to societal issues, questioning of authority, antipathy toward slick corporate music, daring to dress/act in a manner outside of what's considered "normal", an intense approach to life - why would anyone want to outgrow all stereotypical punk ideological attributes?

Ya been there too believe it or not! I can remember when it all started to change too..I think it was the first time after getting married, going to the grocery store at the checkout line to pay for it all! Shocked me right into reality. It will all change and change again, enjoy the cloud while ya can still sit on it, nothing wrong with that feeling, enjoy.

It's a cycle that's been going on with youth coming of age since the beginning of time.

[Mudcat]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

yeah im 18, and yes ill prolly grow out of it. but i gotta question who does everyone else idolize?

I'm not sure exactly when it was, but at some point in my early twenties I gave up on having any "idols" and I have very few heroes, none of whom are famous.

 

I think it hit me when I realized that as much as I loved John Lennon's music & humour, there was pretty much nothing else about him that I had any admiration or respect for. Then it hit me that this was the case for almost all of my favorite musicians, entertainers & politicians.

 

I now try to identify attributes from specific individuals to respect/admire/emulate as opposed to idolizing someone or getting into hero-worship.

[gfred611]

b]

Actually, the cocaine charges were dropped against Andrae Crouch for lack of evidence. The "cocaine" in his car turned out to be powdered chicken soup from his Dr. prescribed diet plan...[/qb]I'm so glad to know that, I'd never heard it! All I ever heard about was the bust... [/QB]

 

 

yeah, you know the old cliche.....bad news travels quickly...

 

Andrae is one of my musical heroes!!!!!

[LPCustom]

Hmmm, let's see here.

 

Picker, I started this thread about fallen idols because of what happened with Randy Cunningham. I wanted it to be about the disillusionment that many of us have felt during our lives with people we thought to be larger than life. Since most of us here have probably had at least one guitar playing idol (I know I have -- I was shocked to learn that most of Aerosmith were drug addicts), I thought that would be the direction it would go. It sort of did but it included a few other characters along the way and the spur line about Jesse James and Al Capone. That had longer legs than I expected.

 

In retrospect, perhaps the topic was overly broad. But many of the discussions here take rather bizarre sidetracks that go far afield from the original (read intended) topic line. This one was no exception.

 

all

I _think_ the folks who are in their 30s or later like me (47) had idols when we were younger that we came to see eventually were just as human as we are. And some turned out to have some fairly serious flaws. It's easy to forget they are real people just like us.

 

I have been reading a great deal of posts lately about how "great" so and so is. I just wondered how many people have had their bubbles burst about their favorite icon.

[Dr. Ellwood]

You know I can honestly say that my idols as far as guitar playing goes have not really dimished because of knowledge of their personal habits or addictions. What has changed is how I think of them as total musicians and what it took for them to get to the level they got too. In many ways I feel equal in ability to them or in some cases superior to them in playng ability. That does not mean I like their material less though.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

yeah im 18, and yes ill prolly grow out of it. but i gotta question who does everyone else idolize?

Well, I don't know if I would say I idolize them, but Harry Chapin and James Taylor are my biggest musical heroes. And yes, I have to look past the drugs in James' past. I do so because I see a man who finally got help and moved on with his life.

 

As for Harry, there's a lot to admire. In addition to being a top flight songwriter and performer, he was putting his money and his mind where is mouth was in making the "civilized" world more aware of world hunger. He did this at a time when celebrities generally lent their name to causes without much other assistance. But as selfless as his causes were, as intelligently he spoke and discussed the issues, Harry was far from perfect too. He spent so much time in support of causes it put a great strain on his band and he was almost always traveling. His kids didn't have much time with their father. It's no wonder he and his wife co-wrote Cats In The Cradle. And if those flaws weren't enough, he was a terrible driver and always seemed to push himself and his vehicles beyond their limits. It was no wonder then, that Harry died in a horrific collision between his car and a semi.

 

George Burns and Gracie Allen are personal heroes of mine. I was struck by their persistance and class. I've never heard anyone say anything bad about either of them. They shared a great bond, and shared it with their close friends and the broadcast audience. They were people I wish I'd known.. not just met, but known them personally.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by DC Ross:

You know, fantasticsound, the more I read from you, the more respect I have for you. No, I'm not sucking up ...

Well thank you... but you'll know better eventually.

 

To be honest, I always forget who's who... is this Sr. or Jr. "Ross".

[Hardtail]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

yeah im 18, and yes ill prolly grow out of it. but i gotta question who does everyone else idolize?

Winston Churchill and Audie Murphy.

[skipclone 1]

well this is why I get a bit exasperated over the `guitar hero` thing. Maybe the people who looked up `hero` in the dictionary should do it here too. According to Webster`s, heroes were never perfect people in the first place but in fact that`s what, as `role models`, society has come to expect of them. But it`s a total contradiction-who is going to create meaningful art by getting caught up in other people`s expectations? especially in our entertainment-saturated environment that doesn`t fly-confounding expectations is what makes things like Cubism, Jazz, animation and fusion cuisine great.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by DC Ross:

I remember when I was 18, I was caught up in the stereotypical punk ideologoy, too. Don't worry, you'll eventually outgrow it.

Well, so was I, but the "stereotypical punk ideology" didn't have much to do with idolizing the mafia.

 

 

ADDED: And I don't know that I "idolize" anyone.

 

I respect a lot of people in the arts and in politics and my personal life and admire some of them too, but I don't think there's anyone out there that I "idolize" with no reservations.

 

Funny how nobody's mentioned idolizing Jesus, so far...

 

 

OT Topics Picker, if you want to bring up OT stuff, I think a lot depends on whether the rest of the forum "bites" on your hypothetical thread or not.

 

As it it, this thread does keep coming back to music, one way or another. Even the whole gangster subthread is probably there as a reflection of the whole gangsta thing. So it's not as if we were completely OT.

[revorhythm]

Kramer - in fact i was gonna mention jesus in my next post, ironic. also, gangsta and gangster, to me at least, having nothing in common, except for maybe the violence. but enough on that.

 

Since were talking about musical idols in a sense, then my musical idol, hero, role-model, however you wanna put it, is Mike Ness. he is the quintessential punk, who grew up hard, and in his old age, looks back, and uses his music to spread a message. in fact his message is, dont do the things ive done. but also in his old age, he keeps those same punk ideals he had when he was 18. he is respected, and not afraid to fight for what is right.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

Mike Ness. he is the quintessential punk, who grew up hard, and in his old age, looks back, and uses his music to spread a message.

**LMFAO!!!!!***

 

SCREW YOU, DUDE!!!! IN HIS OLD AGE????

 

HE WAS BORN IN F*CKING 1962!!! That makes him 43 this year, ie just one year older than I am.

[ihategarybettman]

Revo, I have to join Kramer in saying "Screw you" because I was also born in '62. Obviously, "old age" is a relative term.

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Kramer Ferrington III.:

Fallen Idols? Uhmmm... the Stones. Clapton. Who would have thought they'd become so dull?

 

The audience at Woodstock, who got too stoned to change the world. I was supposed to continue their work and they left me nothing except big music corporations, venereal disease and bad drugs. ("hey man, I'm not ripping you off..! I got long hair too, see?)

 

The Jefferson Airplane, who finally built this city on MOR trash...

 

 

**sigh**

 

And I'm not even going to start on people I know PERSONALLY...

Yes...this is really the crux of the matter.

 

When you have an idol...what is it about him/her that makes you idolize them?

 

If you idolize someone for how they play guitar...then why expect them to be PERFECT in everything else too...??? And them minute you find out that they have some OTHER imperfection...then they are also no longer your guitar idol...???

 

If you are going to put someone up on a pedestal...well then folks...be clear what it is exactly that you are worshiping.

If you worship a musicianship...then dont expect them to also be PERFECT in everything elseand why get bent out of shape over some other aspect of their image?

 

Sure...finding out that ANYONE is a murder or a pedophile...etc...

...is enough to turn you off to that person.

But...if someone plays great guitar, etc...and then you learn they are also just like the rest of us...human...imperfect...

...well then...be human yourself, and learn to accept some of their imperfections, just like you expect people to accept yours.

[DC Ross]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Originally posted by DC Ross:

You know, fantasticsound, the more I read from you, the more respect I have for you. No, I'm not sucking up ...

Well thank you... but you'll know better eventually.

 

To be honest, I always forget who's who... is this Sr. or Jr. "Ross".

Actually, I'm neither Sr. nor Jr.

You helped me hook up with an old friend back in Feb. of this year ( http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/get_topic/f/1/t/023126.html )

 

As for fallen music idols, when I was a teenager, Guns & Roses hit it big. Slash became an instant influence: a hell of a guitarist & living the rock and roll dream. I quickly realized that "fall down stupid drunk" was no way to live.

Nowadays, I really have to give the guy credit. When most of the late 80's guys are way past thier prime, touring small, crappy clubs and trying to stand on what they did 15 or 20 years ago, he (& Duff & Matt & guy & other guy from STP) are writing great rock songs.

[revorhythm]

my bad, it was more of a relative term. no offense, i guess i should have said in his older age. or somethin. sorry

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

my bad, it was more of a relative term. no offense, i guess i should have said in his older age. or somethin. sorry

That's cool, guy.

 

I had a great laugh over that one, and a day later I still find it funny!

 

When I was 18, 40 was as ancient as you could get without quite needing depends.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by miroslav:

If you idolize someone for how they play guitar...then why expect them to be PERFECT in everything else too...???

Maybe you're being disingenous, maybe not.

 

Back in the 60s there used to be a lot more of that "spokesman for a generation" shit. People didn't just play guitar and write songs, they spoke for their entire freaking generation, whoever THEY were.

 

In some cases, such as the Jefferson Airplane/Starship I'm disappointed by the songwriting.... were these the people that sang of revolution or later, of hijacking a spaceship? And they uhmmm... finished by doing the "Mannequin" soundtrack? I'm sure there's some OT symbolism there, but I won't go into it.

 

So yeah. As far as I'm concerned some of my disappointments are musical, some are philosophical but at the time, the two were intertwined. Maybe it was the press putting words in ppl's mouths, but how was I or anybody else to know?

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Kramer Ferrington III.:

Originally posted by miroslav:

If you idolize someone for how they play guitar...then why expect them to be PERFECT in everything else too...???

Maybe you're being disingenous, maybe not.

Not.

 

Yeah...if you go out strumming your guitar, singing political songs from the gitgo...then that's one thing. You are being clear that you are using your art as a tool for a greater purpose.

But I always hated artists (musicians/actors/etc...) who took their art AFTER they became successful...and then tired to use it as a political tool.

 

In most cases...back then (and now) I can't think of a single musician that I "idolized"...because I was aware of or in-tune to their political/social stance.

I was just listening to their music...man!

 

Heck...even listening to Dylan...

...while I could hear his "message"...I was always paying more attention the his "sound".

 

The only time I really get let down by any musician "idol"...is when their music starts to suck!

[Chad Thorne]

Originally posted by ihategarybettman:

Revo, I have to join Kramer in saying "Screw you" because I was also born in '62. Obviously, "old age" is a relative term.

Well, screw all of yez. I,like the Corvette Stingray, the Fender Stratocaster, and Playboy magazine, made my debut in 1953.

 

And I'm not old yet, either.

[Guitarzan]

well i may have been made in 1960, but i am far from old. i feel one gets old when they can no longer learn anything new or keep an open mind.

when you stop growing you become old.

some young people are guilty of old age.

as for idols,

i have to say my mother is about as high up as someone can get in my eyes. she was married at 18 right off the farm. went from being a sheltered farm girl to a wife and mother, only to have her husband die of a heart attack. throwing her into a fast learning curve of trying to financially handling a household and solely raising three children aged 7, 9 and 10.

she did it by being full of life and always there for us. i am always amazed at how much she actually is into us. i always feel like a 7 year old with an A on a test when she talks to me.

she is the best Grandmother in the universe.

she has been though alot and has always kept her chin up and moved forward. she is still as sweet and loving as she was when she lived on the farm.

My Mother Rocks!

that is who i idolize.

i am who i am because of her.

she can't walk on water but she is one cool girl.

Norma Evangeline Scott

that is an IDOL

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by DC Ross:

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Originally posted by DC Ross:

You know, fantasticsound, the more I read from you, the more respect I have for you. No, I'm not sucking up ...

Well thank you... but you'll know better eventually.

 

To be honest, I always forget who's who... is this Sr. or Jr. "Ross".

Actually, I'm neither Sr. nor Jr.

You helped me hook up with an old friend back in Feb. of this year ( http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/get_topic/f/1/t/023126.html )

...

Doh! My mistake. I never did meet Chuck. Have you come to Nashville to see him since you hooked up again, DC Ross?

[Eric Iverson]

I don't have idols anymore, but there are plenty of people I respect!

 

Actually I tend to respect anyone who is honestly doing their job to the best of their ability.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean I follow them around like a puppy dog craving their pearls of wisdom!