OT: Fallen Idols

[Guitarzan]

don't sweat it. no biggie.

[Chad Thorne]

Important to remember that people we idolize are people, too. I, as an evangelical Christian, have encountered this a few times. Jimmy Swaggert. Jim Bakker. Andrae Crouch, a wonderful gospel composer whose music I love, busted with cocaine some years ago.

 

LP, I'm sorry Duke Cunningham disappointed you. I hear the pain in your post...

[revorhythm]

well why dont we all just agree, to disagree. cuz there's really no seeing eye to eye here. The thing is these people did what they needed to to survive, whether the system liked it or not, many of them did it to prove a point or some kind of symbolism (Jesse James). They didnt follow the same standards. Just like Cash, Ramones, Joe Strummer, Johnny Rotten. Hell look at Chuck Berry, arrested for armed burglury, but a legend and hero, to most all guitarists.

[rw2003]

Originally posted by Pappadopalus:

Freddie Mercury, Elton John, David Bowie, Dave Navarro, Melissa Etheridge, the B-52s, all those guys might have the same persuation as Rob Halford.

Last I heard, Dave Navarro was married to Carmen Electra, one of the sexiest women in entertainment today. So what if he wears feathered boas and fishnet stockings once in a while!!!

[skipclone 1]

Drugs in the 60s also fall under the symbolic value umbrella. It`s easy to see it as a bunch of stoned people, now that you can take organic food, environmental awareness, the human potential movement, animal rights and a host of other things for granted. At the time drugs were a symbol of protest against the goose stepping conformity and McCarthyism of the previous era. How long will it be before the current generation is remembered mostly for putting the whole world under 24 hour surveillance, all the while talking blithely about the potential of the internet.

[Guitar55]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

well why dont we all just agree, to disagree. cuz there's really no seeing eye to eye here. The thing is these people did what they needed to to survive, whether the system liked it or not, many of them did it to prove a point or some kind of symbolism (Jesse James). They didnt follow the same standards. Just like Cash, Ramones, Joe Strummer, Johnny Rotten. Hell look at Chuck Berry, arrested for armed burglury, but a legend and hero, to most all guitarists.

No, let's not. There is a difference between fallen heroes and just plain devils. The thieves and killers you mentioned (Capone, James) had no redeeming values that society and history have been made aware of. By definition, they cannot be considered heroes. You may idolize them and that is your right. Just use the correct term.

 

And get your facts straight about Chuck. It was ATTEMPTED burglary and he was sent to reform school. Big difference between that and ARMED burglary.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

The thing is these people did what they needed to to survive,

Now THAT is bullshit. Chicago in the 1920s was full of Italian immigrant families that worked honest jobs. THEY were doing whatever it took to survive. Becoming a millionaire by breaking the law and killing off your opponents is NOT about survival plain and simple. It's about greed.

 

 

Originally posted by revorhythm:

They didnt follow the same standards.

Exactly. People like Capone didn't follow the same standards. He was a filthy little parasite. All mafiosi are.

 

 

Originally posted by revorhythm:

Just like Cash, Ramones, Joe Strummer, Johnny Rotten.

No, NOTHING LIKE Joe Strummer, sorry. But maybe you're thinking of some other Joe Strummer?

 

Originally posted by revorhythm:

Hell look at Chuck Berry, arrested for armed burglury, but a legend and hero, to most all guitarists.

Yes. And you could have even brought in Leadbelly. But they're heroes to guitarists because of their PLAYING. Whether we admire what they do when they get off stage or not is a different matter. I quite like "Rock n Roll Part II", but I am dead set against pedophilia.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

well why dont we all just agree, to disagree. cuz there's really no seeing eye to eye here. The thing is these people did what they needed to to survive, whether the system liked it or not, many of them did it to prove a point or some kind of symbolism (Jesse James). They didnt follow the same standards. Just like Cash, Ramones, Joe Strummer, Johnny Rotten. Hell look at Chuck Berry, arrested for armed burglury, but a legend and hero, to most all guitarists.

I REALLY hope you don't really believe this crap. The only point Jesse and Frank James and their gang were trying to prove is that they could rob and steal and murder people and get away with it. Their motivation was money and greed and that's the end of that story. Jesse's life was ended by the same motivation...one of his own gang members, (who was his personal bodyguard), shot him in the back of the head while he was straightening a picture on the wall.....because the railroad security people paid him to do it. These were not people to idolize, unless your aspirations are to be a murdering, stealing, cowardly criminal.

 

You cannot justify criminal activity by saying "He was just doing what he needed to do to survive." That's bullshit. The fact is he was just doing what was the easiest thing to survive.

 

Nope, there's no "agreeing to disagree" here, because your position is indefensible. Do you think you're right about this and everybody else is wrong?

[fantasticsound]

Rev - Where do you get the idea that Jesse James was serving some noble purpose to survive? I think you've been watching too many hollywood movies about the man, few of which have anything to do with the truth.

 

Yes, the Union army committed atrocities after the war. Yes, there is proof they fired on and killed members of Quantrill's Raiders, a group of confederate guerillas to which James was a member, under truce flags. Yes, the Pinkerton agency killed his 9 year old half-brother, severely wounded his step-father and mother and an older half-brother.

 

But while these groups and their actions are certainly reprehensible, it doesn't in any way mitigate the murder of innocents by the James-Younger gang or justify their robbing banks and trains for many years after the war.

 

Reading about them did force me to accept the fall of another idol, President Theodore Roosevelt who, unfortunately, bought in to the notion they were "Robin Hoods" of the south. To my knowledge they never actually gave any of the money to other victims of the war or reconstruction. They simply used the guise of being "forced" into a life of crime as a way to gain public support and rationalize robbery and murder.

[Chad Thorne]

Just a correction - Chuck Berry never did time for armed anything. He did some juvie time for stealing a car, IIRC, income tax evasion, and violating the Mann Act, i.e., transporting a minor across state lines for immoral purposes (a 15 year old Indian hooker).

[Gabriel E.]

Originally posted by Caputo:

Pete Townshend, Rob Halford

 

It's kind of tough having once had the Artist impression I had of them when I was a kid to the impression I have of them now that they have proven to be pedophiles

It's unfortunate that people don't realize posting misinformation "they heard somewhere" on the internet can be libelous.

 

As previously mentioned in this thread, Townshend was legally exhonerated and Halford has never been accused of pedophelia.

 

In any case, I believe it is important to separate people's personal lives from their public accomplishments. The reality is that many talented people have personal demons and/or are socially disfunctional.

 

Clinton's accomplishments as president shouldn't be diminished because he lied about getting a blowjob. Likewise, Jimi Hendrix's music stands despite his ultimately fatal drug use and girlfriend abuse. Picasso was a complete asshole but that doesn't mean we can't respect him for painting "Guernica". If Phil Spector is convicted of murder, I will continue to enjoy listening to the Ronettes, Riteous Brothers and Simon & Garfunkle and will continue to believe that he is a genius. Likewise, I will continue to enjoy "Layla" even though Jim Gordan, who wrote the second half of the song, killed his mother with an axe.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by Gabriel E.:

Picasso was a complete asshole but that doesn't mean we can't respect him for painting "Guernica".

My god!!!!! It's finally happened!!!!! Somebody called Pablo Picasso an asshole!!! Was he driving down the street in his Eldorado?

[picker]

What does any of this rah rah have to do with playing the guitar?

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by Picker:

What does any of this rah rah have to do with playing the guitar?

It doesn't. That's why he labeled the thread OT (off topic).

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by Picker:

What does any of this rah rah have to do with playing the guitar?

Not much.

 

That's why the thread is marked OT, I guess.

[Tone Taster]

Well if anything, this thread taught me what OT means just by inference and deductive logic

 

P.S.

Vince, you don't look like no Kramer Ferrington

 

You like like your ready to go for a latte' then do a job !

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by Caputo:

P.S.

Vince, you don't look like no Kramer Ferrington

 

You like like your ready to go for a latte' then do a job !

But, but..! I thought I looked so snazzy with my sunglasses on my head and all!

 

 

Oh well, back to the drawing board, I guess!

[Eric Iverson]

If you don't turn people into idols, then you don't have to worry so much about their clay feet.

 

Re: heroes, sure we all like to have people to look up to - especially when we're young. But eventually you discover they are fallible human beings, too. (This is not to excuse violent criminal behavior, of course.)

 

But if I buy a CD it's to hear the music, not to critique the person's life!

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Gabriel E.:

...In any case, I believe it is important to separate people's personal lives from their public accomplishments. The reality is that many talented people have personal demons and/or are socially disfunctional.

 

To some degree this is possible, but personal demons always play some role in our perception of everyone around us. Sometimes we pity them, other times we empathize, still other times we cannot forgive their dark side for the accomplishments they would otherwise be respected for.

 

Originally posted by Gabriel E.:

Clinton's accomplishments as president shouldn't be diminished because he lied about getting a blowjob...

This I disagree with. I'm not dismissing his accomplishments. I lost respect for him for his affairs, but moreso for continuing to lie in the face of overwhelming evidence against him. It's the latter that puts a stain on his accomplishments. It wasn't what he lied about. It was that he lied so brazenly and refused to come clean when directly accused.

 

To his credit, "Duke" Cunningham has apologized to his family, his constituency and the nation for his crimes, and he will have to answer for them in court. He seems genuinely remorseful for those actions.

 

Had Clinton come out and said, "Yes, we had an affair" then the issue would have largely been between Hilary and him. Look at Newt Gingrich. He gave up his career in the wake of his infidelity because he'd campaigned and denegrated Clinton on family values. But realistically, Clinton would have come out a lot better than Gingrich because he never claimed to be a saint as a job qualification.

 

Instead, it became an issue of law and he dodged a bullet by censure when he could have been prosecuted. Not for his indiscretions. Because he lied both to federal agents and in his deposition to the investigation. That is the source of my disappointment and it definitely hangs a cloud over his political and legislative accomplishments.

 

I don't expect politicians to be pure. It's virtually impossible to succeed in politics without making poor ethical choices. But the degree and how they handle being caught shows more about their character than the fact they committed a crime in the first place. (Assuming the crime isn't violent or puts others in direct risk of injury or death.) It will be very interesting to see how Tom Delay's woes play out. I definitely don't idolize or trust him, but it sounds like he's been devious above and beyond the call of politics.

[fantasticsound]

BTW - I like plenty of music created and performed by Michael Jackson, but I have absolutely no respect for the man.

[ihategarybettman]

When I go to live shows and have an opportunity to meet the band, I do so with some trepidation. For every great bunch of guys, like Los Lobos, there are bands/performers that treat their fans with anything ranging from indifference to outright contempt. And, while I can tell myself, "People like Miles Davis were reportedly often abrasive assholes, but I still can enjoy the music," I never met Miles, so his personality doesn't affect me personally or color my approach to his music.

However, if my enthusiasm for a performer is shoved right back in my face, one on one, that memory doesn't fade very quickly and it can't help but ruin future listenings, at least a little bit. Fortunately, I haven't had many experiences like these but, when I have, those "idols" fell in my eyes at Mach speed.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Originally posted by Gabriel E.:

...In any case, I believe it is important to separate people's personal lives from their public accomplishments. The reality is that many talented people have personal demons and/or are socially disfunctional.

 

To some degree this is possible, but personal demons always play some role in our perception of everyone around us. Sometimes we pity them, other times we empathize, still other times we cannot forgive their dark side for the accomplishments they would otherwise be respected for.

 

Originally posted by Gabriel E.:

Clinton's accomplishments as president shouldn't be diminished because he lied about getting a blowjob...

This I disagree with. I'm not dismissing his accomplishments. I lost respect for him for his affairs, but moreso for continuing to lie in the face of overwhelming evidence against him. It's the latter that puts a stain on his accomplishments. It wasn't what he lied about. It was that he lied so brazenly and refused to come clean when directly accused.

 

To his credit, "Duke" Cunningham has apologized to his family, his constituency and the nation for his crimes, and he will have to answer for them in court. He seems genuinely remorseful for those actions.

 

Had Clinton come out and said, "Yes, we had an affair" then the issue would have largely been between Hilary and him. Look at Newt Gingrich. He gave up his career in the wake of his infidelity because he'd campaigned and denegrated Clinton on family values. But realistically, Clinton would have come out a lot better than Gingrich because he never claimed to be a saint as a job qualification.

 

Instead, it became an issue of law and he dodged a bullet by censure when he could have been prosecuted. Not for his indiscretions. Because he lied both to federal agents and in his deposition to the investigation. That is the source of my disappointment and it definitely hangs a cloud over his political and legislative accomplishments.

 

I don't expect politicians to be pure. It's virtually impossible to succeed in politics without making poor ethical choices. But the degree and how they handle being caught shows more about their character than the fact they committed a crime in the first place. (Assuming the crime isn't violent or puts others in direct risk of injury or death.) It will be very interesting to see how Tom Delay's woes play out. I definitely don't idolize or trust him, but it sounds like he's been devious above and beyond the call of politics.

Agreed 100%. Clinton brazenly, knowingly, and intentionally committed a crime when he lied under oath (he's a lawyer..he knows the law). That makes him a criminal. He lied to the entire country to which he was supposed to be an honest, faithful servant and leader. He betrayed the trust that the country had placed in him. Had he admitted his affairs up front, he would have only been a jerk. He could be forgiven for that. Lots of politicians are jerks, many presidents have been jerks. Being a jerk does not diminish their capacity to run the country. Being an untrustworthy criminal does. He will not be remembered for any accomplishments he may have achieved while in office, but for his deceit and irresponsible behavior. He did that to himself.

[revorhythm]

Ok i do agree, I wrongly used the term hero interchangeably with idol. Guess it was kind of a slip that i hadnt really picked up on. However, how James death is still unproven, what he was gonna do with the money too is unproven. There are rumors that he was keeping it safe for his secret society he was in. Which is why it is still unfound. I think after what was done to James' organization, and own personal family, he was justified in his actions. Not particularly the murder, but the robbery. The robbery was just plain proving a point. Capone I think is just the overall gangster, but yes i idolize gangsters, and i dont think theres ever been a gangster who never killed anyone.

[Dr. Ellwood]

"but yes i idolize gangsters, and i dont think theres ever been a gangster who never killed anyone."

 

WTF?

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

Ok i do agree, I wrongly used the term hero interchangeably with idol. Guess it was kind of a slip that i hadnt really picked up on. However, how James death is still unproven, what he was gonna do with the money too is unproven. There are rumors that he was keeping it safe for his secret society he was in. Which is why it is still unfound. I think after what was done to James' organization, and own personal family, he was justified in his actions. Not particularly the murder, but the robbery. The robbery was just plain proving a point. Capone I think is just the overall gangster, but yes i idolize gangsters, and i dont think theres ever been a gangster who never killed anyone.

Revo....how old are you? Just curious.....

[gfred611]

Originally posted by chad:

Important to remember that people we idolize are people, too. I, as an evangelical Christian, have encountered this a few times. Jimmy Swaggert. Jim Bakker. Andrae Crouch, a wonderful gospel composer whose music I love, busted with cocaine some years ago.

Actually, the cocaine charges were dropped against Andrae Crouch for lack of evidence. The "cocaine" in his car turned out to be powdered chicken soup from his Dr. prescribed diet plan.

 

 

Careful.....wars can be started over misinformation........

[picker]

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

Originally posted by Picker:

What does any of this rah rah have to do with playing the guitar?

It doesn't. That's why he labeled the thread OT (off topic).

So all we have to do is write "OT" on anything we wanna lay our two cents out about, and then it's okay to take up bandwidth on a guitar site with it? Weeeelllll, I could come up with a few topics that are "OT" too, and so could you, and everyone else, and then we could give up any pretence of being a guitar site.That would resurrect the unlamented political party site that died a much needed death and improved the quality of life around here.

 

Wouldn't that suck?

[The Geoff]

Originally posted by gfred611:

 

 

Careful.....wars can be started over misinformation........

 

NO!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe that would *ever* happen!!!!!!

 

By the way - a link to the Pete Townsend thing:

 

More Townsend Info.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Picker you are right. I think we have done a pretty good job at keeping the OT threads at a bare minimum but yes we should try to keep on our chartered subject or very close to it!

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by Picker:

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

Originally posted by Picker:

What does any of this rah rah have to do with playing the guitar?

It doesn't. That's why he labeled the thread OT (off topic).

So all we have to do is write "OT" on anything we wanna lay our two cents out about, and then it's okay to take up bandwidth on a guitar site with it? Weeeelllll, I could come up with a few topics that are "OT" too, and so could you, and everyone else, and then we could give up any pretence of being a guitar site.That would resurrect the unlamented political party site that died a much needed death and improved the quality of life around here.

 

Wouldn't that suck?

Well..ummmm...yeah!

 

As a matter of fact, most quibbles and fights get started over this kind of thread....

 

As long as we're talking about music and guitars everyone seems to get along just fine.