OT: Fallen Idols

[LPCustom]

Back in [1968] Lieutenant Randall "Duke" Cunningham became the Navy's first Ace of [the Vietnam] war.

 

Since that time, Randy Cunningham taught ACM at the Navy's Miramar "Top Gun" school and went on to become a congressman.

 

As a former USAF ACM instructor, my father knows Mr. Cunningham and I met him back in 1972 when he was teaching at the Top Gun school. He (along with my dad) was one of my idols.

 

It's a sorry state of affairs when someone like that turns out to be a crook. Why do so many politicians seem to always have their hand in the cookie jar?

 

This is not a political discussion. That's why I did not mention Mr. Cunningham's party affiliation. Rather, this is to be discussion of fallen idols. Seemingly great people who turn out to have feet of clay.

 

I used to be likewise in awe of John Glenn until he parlayed his Senate seat into a seat on the Space Shuttle. Can no one be trusted?

 

Next thing, people will be telling me there's no tooth fairy...

[Tone Taster]

Pete Townshend, Rob Halford

 

It's kind of tough having once had the Artist impression I had of them when I was a kid to the impression I have of them now that they have proven to be pedophiles

[s mel gibson1642606968]

And then there's Gary Glitter, and Michael Jackson's close call with the law. I suppose O.J. Simpson's part of the club. Rumors of EVH's crack habit don't help him much in the hero dept. neither.

[Dr. Ellwood]

HOLD ON NOW!!! PETE TOWNSHEND was completely exonerated in that whole thing.

[revorhythm]

Thats why my idols have always been people, that most consider bad. Like old gangsters, outlaws, and junkies. The thing is yeah, they werent good people in the majorities eyes, but we already knew that. the truth is these are sometimes the most honorable and respectable people. Jesse James (old and new), Al Capone, Johnny Cash, these are the true hero's in my opinion.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by ellwood:

HOLD ON NOW!!! PETE TOWNSHEND was completely exonerated in that whole thing.

Exonerated or not, the evidence remains in the middle of all the legalese, that he had some kiddie porn in his computer.

Maybe someone downloaded it w/o his knowledge?

Seems doubtful.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

Thats why my idols have always been people, that most consider bad. Like old gangsters, outlaws, and junkies. The thing is yeah, they werent good people in the majorities eyes, but we already knew that. the truth is these are sometimes the most honorable and respectable people. Jesse James (old and new), Al Capone, Johnny Cash, these are the true hero's in my opinion.

What the heck are you taking ABOUT!! Jesse James, a known certifiable BACKSHOOTER of U.S. Marshalls, AL Capone, A MASS MURDERER! these are heros?????

[LPCustom]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

Thats why my idols have always been people, that most consider bad. Like old gangsters, outlaws, and junkies. The thing is yeah, they werent good people in the majorities eyes, but we already knew that. the truth is these are sometimes the most honorable and respectable people. Jesse James (old and new), Al Capone, Johnny Cash, these are the true hero's in my opinion.

Dude, I think some of your idols leave a great deal to be desired.

 

Jesse James and Al Capone were just plain cold blooded criminals. Jesse James was a bank and train robber and a murderer. Al Capone was a mafioso responsible for, among other things, the St. Valentine's Day massacre in Chicago.

[Tone Taster]

What about Gotti?

[Darklava]

Rumors of EVH's crack habit don't help him much in the hero dept. neither.

Geeez I try to follow Ed as much as I can and

I've never heard that,do your have any links?

I think it's bull.BTW we create the heros

not them so who has the problem?

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by Caputo:

Exonerated or not, the evidence remains in the middle of all the legalese, that he had some kiddie porn in his computer.

Maybe someone downloaded it w/o his knowledge?

Seems doubtful.

Noone's denying that he had kiddie porn on his PC. What Pete Townshend claimed was that he was doing some sort of research and the same legal system that convicted Gary Glitter accepted Pete Townshend's alibi or whatever it's called. The Brits don't balk at sentencing when they think there's a good cause, I trust they made the right decision.

 

But let's follow your logic a little bit... what are we to make of people that have violent, shoot 'em up videos? Are we to convict them as murderers?

[EmptinesOf Youth]

Yea i dont get the al capone thing. Funny thing though, i see all these black kids (white too) wearing shirts with him on it saying "original gansta" but i wonder if they know that al capone was very rascist and hated blacks?

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

Thats why my idols have always been people, that most consider bad. Like old gangsters, outlaws, and junkies. The thing is yeah, they werent good people in the majorities eyes, but we already knew that. the truth is these are sometimes the most honorable and respectable people. Jesse James (old and new), Al Capone, Johnny Cash, these are the true hero's in my opinion.

Please tell us this is a joke. If so, you left off the smileys indicating as much.

 

Please don't further disgrace the memory of Johnny Cash, a man who, even in the worst battles with his personal demons, tried to bring attention to those less fortunate, by associating him with cold blooded murderers such as JJ and AC, either of whom would have shot you in the back if it served their own purposes.

 

Many Italians and others in Chicago abhor anything approaching idol worship of Capone. A group spearheaded by Chicago Italian residents attempted to block a company from opening a Capone museum. In the end, the company was allowed to open, but IIRC the place closed within 3-5 years.

 

Capone is not a hero. There's a huge difference between the romanticism of being a criminal, free to do whatever you please with no ethical dilemmas and actually idolizing those who do. There's little difference, IMO, between Capone, JJ and Ted Bundy. They were all responsible for the deaths of many law abiding bystanders.

 

As for fallen heros, Pete Townshend was researching child pornography. Unfortunately, once he paid to view the information he had committed a crime. You can no more do what he did than buy crack to demonstrate what it looks like by purchasing some.

 

But that hardly qualifies as a reason to lose respect for him.

 

If you want the whole story, including the paper the research was intended to be used for, visit this page from The Smoking Gun .

 

I think I was most disappointed in Bill Clinton, not even because he had an affair (though I don't condone his behavior) but because it was obvious it had happened and he still played games with semantics to try and avoid telling the truth. Our leader. Why the heck didn't he just admit what he'd done, as "Duke" Cunningham did in his press conference. Bill hadn't even done anything illegal at that point. Just stupid. He could've walked away with a lot more respect from the country if he'd simply fessed up. And once he lied about the affair, it tainted every other instance in which he asked anyone in the country to be trusted on anything else. Sad.

[Pappy P]

Originally posted by Caputo:

 

Pete Townshend, Rob Halford

 

It's kind of tough having once had the Artist impression I had of them when I was a kid to the impression I have of them now that they have proven to be pedophiles

 

--------------------

 

 

I know what you mean by Pete Townsend, but what was Rob Halford accused of?

[Jedro]

Rob Halford? He's not a pedophile. He's just a homosexual. And depending on where you're from, that may be worse.

 

Maybe you're thinking of Dave Holland, Priest's ex-drummer who was accused of being a pedophile.

[Pappy P]

Does Elvis count as a fallen angel (or anyone else that essentially killed themselves with drugs)? Just asking.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Pappadopalus:

Does Elvis count as a fallen angel (or anyone else that essentially killed themselves with drugs)? Just asking.

Absolutely.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Fallen Idols? Uhmmm... the Stones. Clapton. Who would have thought they'd become so dull?

 

The audience at Woodstock, who got too stoned to change the world. I was supposed to continue their work and they left me nothing except big music corporations, venereal disease and bad drugs. ("hey man, I'm not ripping you off..! I got long hair too, see?)

 

The Jefferson Airplane, who finally built this city on MOR trash...

 

 

**sigh**

 

And I'm not even going to start on people I know PERSONALLY...

[Pappy P]

Freddie Mercury, Elton John, David Bowie, Dave Navarro, Melissa Etheridge, the B-52s, all those guys might have the same persuation as Rob Halford. I don't think that constitutes a crime though.

 

Now that you mention it, I can't think of many rockers that started off as angels then fell from grace.

[Darklava]

Capone is not a hero.

He was back in the day to a lot of Italian American

 

My grandmother grew up in Chicago and she said Al

would throw big block parties and handed out money

to the poor people by the truck load.He took care of a lot of poor people back in the day when the

government didn't care.

[Guitar55]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

Thats why my idols have always been people, that most consider bad. Like old gangsters, outlaws, and junkies. The thing is yeah, they werent good people in the majorities eyes, but we already knew that. the truth is these are sometimes the most honorable and respectable people. Jesse James (old and new), Al Capone, Johnny Cash, these are the true hero's in my opinion.

he·ro ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hîr)

n. pl. he·roes

In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.

A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.

A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.

The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.

Chiefly New York City. See submarine. See Regional Note at submarine.

 

 

I don't think your guys qualify unless they happen to be sandwiches.

[Guitarzan]

as far as i know, Rob is just gay. i have never heard any pedophile stuff about him.

i did not realise Dave Holland was accused of that.

[revorhythm]

Well they're heroes to me, like i said the majority sees them as bad, but compared to politicians, they are much more admirable. yeah, theyd shoot ya in the back, but only cuz you fucked them over. Politicians'll shoot ya in the back just cause they can. Those were just some examples though. my point is that outlaws and gangsters and ex-junkies, are more honorable and respectable than most. You say Al Capone and Jesse James were criminals, I say decietful politicians and corporations are the real criminals. You say Capone and James killed people, I say the US governement almost annihalated a whole Native American race.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

Well they're heroes to me, like i said the majority sees them as bad, but compared to politicians, they are much more admirable. yeah, theyd shoot ya in the back, but only cuz you fucked them over. Politicians'll shoot ya in the back just cause they can. Those were just some examples though. my point is that outlaws and gangsters and ex-junkies, are more honorable and respectable than most. You say Al Capone and Jesse James were criminals, I say decietful politicians and corporations are the real criminals. You say Capone and James killed people, I say the US governement almost annihalated a whole Native American race.

I dunno...IMHO you would do well to re-evaluate the qualities you look for in a hero. A criminal is a criminal, whether he's a politician or a gangster...and no criminal deserves hero status.

[EmptinesOf Youth]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

Well they're heroes to me, like i said the majority sees them as bad, but compared to politicians, they are much more admirable. yeah, theyd shoot ya in the back, but only cuz you fucked them over. Politicians'll shoot ya in the back just cause they can. Those were just some examples though. my point is that outlaws and gangsters and ex-junkies, are more honorable and respectable than most. You say Al Capone and Jesse James were criminals, I say decietful politicians and corporations are the real criminals. You say Capone and James killed people, I say the US governement almost annihalated a whole Native American race.

No ones said the government and politicians were heroes....

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

Well they're heroes to me, like i said the majority sees them as bad, but compared to politicians, they are much more admirable. yeah, theyd shoot ya in the back, but only cuz you fucked them over. Politicians'll shoot ya in the back just cause they can. Those were just some examples though. my point is that outlaws and gangsters and ex-junkies, are more honorable and respectable than most. You say Al Capone and Jesse James were criminals, I say decietful politicians and corporations are the real criminals. You say Capone and James killed people, I say the US governement almost annihalated a whole Native American race.

This is a fallacy, rev.

 

I didn't say you should put any politician up as a hero. I mentioned Clinton because many people did look up to him as a hero, and he lost respect from many for lying, but heightened his fall by continuing to duck and weave even after it was obvious something unethical and demeaning had happened. As for the U.S. governments that caused much of the annihilation of Native American tribes, again, I didn't ask you to idolize them. What any of that has to do with cold blooded killers is beyond me.

 

Your comment is akin to saying, "Strychnine is poison, but it's better than Hemlock." Both are poison.

 

And while I admit it would be hard to find a politician worth idolizing, their certainly have been those who've done more good than harm. That can't be said of either JJ or AC. They didn't just murder other bad guys. They killed a lot of innocent bystanders. The mafia was fond of driveby shootings and bombings, and a little collateral damage such as dead bystanders didn't bug them a bit. In fact, they felt it helped keep others in line.

[Jedro]

Originally posted by Guitarzan:

as far as i know, Rob is just gay. i have never heard any pedophile stuff about him.

i did not realise Dave Holland was accused of that.

Actually Holland was convicted of indecent liberties with a minor; a 17 year old drumming student of his. A little different than pedophilia, but no more redeeming.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Kramer Ferrington III.:

 

But let's follow your logic a little bit... what are we to make of people that have violent, shoot 'em up videos? Are we to convict them as murderers?

Sure, let's go all the way with it

 

If you had a choice, w/ NEITHER NOT AS AN OPTION;Who would you feel more comfortable taking your kids to the park?

[Guitarzan]

Originally posted by Jedro:

Originally posted by Guitarzan:

as far as i know, Rob is just gay. i have never heard any pedophile stuff about him.

i did not realise Dave Holland was accused of that.

Actually Holland was convicted of indecent liberties with a minor; a 17 year old drumming student of his. A little different than pedophilia, but no more redeeming.

interesting, considering that alot of our grand parents were married before the age of 16.

in Canada the legal age for consentual sex is 14.

i am not condoning what Dave has been convicted of but that isn't what i pictured when i read the post about him.

[Tone Taster]

I apologize to Mr. Halford and this board for bum info.

 

I remeber i heard about a member in Priest being accused of pedophilia, but I was wrong about which band member