Majors and Relative Minors

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Ok, here's something I've never dared to ask.

 

Every major scale has its relative minor. For example C Major (no sharps or flats) has its relative minor in A minor (no sharps or flats either)

 

Now my question is... if they're the same scale, what's the point of having two and not just talk in terms of a single, unified scale (C Mijor?)

 

I've wondered about this since I was about 13... any answers?

[Tedster]

They're not really the same scale. Although they're comprised of many of the same notes...simply put the C scale starts on the note "C". Any Am scale would start on A...and there are three minor scales, I believe...the natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor...all of which have a distinctly minor feel to them. I think there are actually even more when you start getting into middle eastern type scales.

 

One of the Am scales (can't remember which) ascends:

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A and goes back down the same way.

 

One ascends:

 

A, B, C, D, E, F#, G#, A and descends:

G, F, E, D, C, B, A

 

And one ascends:

 

A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A, and descends the same way as the others. If you take this one and descend the same way you came up, you'll get a distinctly middle eastern feel...

 

But, I'll leave that to a theory guy to talk about. I'm not one of them. I just play what I think sounds good

[Tedster]

oops

[Bluesape]

I think in minor scales the sharps mentioned would actually be represented as the corresponding flats.

[Chad Thorne]

Originally posted by Tedster:

They're not really the same scale. Although they're comprised of many of the same notes...simply put the C scale starts on the note "C". Any Am scale would start on A...and there are three minor scales, I believe...the natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor...all of which have a distinctly minor feel to them. I think there are actually even more when you start getting into middle eastern type scales.

 

One of the Am scales (can't remember which) ascends:

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A and goes back down the same way.

 

One ascends:

 

A, B, C, D, E, F#, G#, A and descends:

G, F, E, D, C, B, A

 

And one ascends:

 

A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A, and descends the same way as the others. If you take this one and descend the same way you came up, you'll get a distinctly middle eastern feel...

 

But, I'll leave that to a theory guy to talk about. I'm not one of them. I just play what I think sounds good

But harmonic and melodic minor scales are altered scales, no? I do think you're correct about "they start on different notes". The Am scale is the minor scale derived from the notes of the C major (Aeolian) scale. Once you start sharping the IVs and/or VIIs of an A minor scale, you take it out of its relative C major tonality. Middle Eastern and other non-Western scales are a whole other kettle of fish.

 

When we're talking about the situation of a major scale and its relative minor, Vince, I think the short answer to your question is "if you start a scale on the VIth degree of a major scale, the III above that is a minor III, making the scale minor."

 

Does that help, or am I just engaging in obfuscating pedantry (again)?

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by chad:

 

When we're talking about the situation of a major scale and its relative minor, Vince, I think the short answer to your question is "if you start a scale on the VIth degree of a major scale, the III above that is a minor III, making the scale minor."

 

Does that help, or am I just engaging in obfuscating pedantry (again)?

Well... ok. I can understand that. But there's two things that I don't get.

 

The first is why the starting note should make any difference at all. Even if you play nothing but the middle of the scale (during a solo, say), you're still in that specific key. Is that right so far?

 

The other thing I don't understand is what I'm supposed to do with the C Maj - A min thing? Sure, it's useful in order to close off the chord cycle when writing a song in C or going into a bridge, but beyond that?

 

And sorry to be so obtuse.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

This is a very confusing and difficult-to-explain thing. It's the difference between a harmonic minor scale and a melodic minor scale. What it amounts to is the "feel" (musical tension? need to resolve?) that the scale has or creates because of the note that the scale is started on and the interval pattern used. In this case, all you are doing is playing the notes of a C major scale (with a particular pattern of intervals starting on the 6th degree of the scale. What you end up with is an A minor scale of one type or another depending upon the interval pattern used. For the melodic minor the interval pattern ascending is different that the interval pattern descending. This is because of the difference in resolution to the tonic when ascending as opposed to descending. When descending it doesn't matter if the interval from the leading tone to the tonic is a step or a half step, when ascending it does.

[Chad Thorne]

Originally posted by Kramer Ferrington III.:

...there's two things that I don't get.

 

The first is why the starting note should make any difference at all. Even if you play nothing but the middle of the scale (during a solo, say), you're still in that specific key. Is that right so far?

 

A lot of this theory was developed by old white European guys hundreds of years ago. Its usefulness today is limited. If we're in, say, C, and a section comes up in an Am tonality, we're still in C because the notes are from the same scale (assuming no sharps or flats anywhere), and assuming the root tonality, C/E/G, doesn't change significantly. That's why the scales are called relative, because they share the same notes. Also, whether it's C or Am depends on the chords more than the scale. If the major chord progression of the overall piece is Am/Dm/G, you're in Am even though the notes used are those of the relative major scale, C.

 

The other thing I don't understand is what I'm supposed to do with the C Maj - A min thing? Sure, it's useful in order to close off the chord cycle when writing a song in C or going into a bridge, but beyond that?...

Nothin'. This relative major/minor thing is merely a description of what's happening, not a hard-and-fast rule of what you have to do.

 

I play Scottish fiddle music, a lot of which is in the "pipes scale", e.g., Mixolydian (lowered VII). The tonality might be in A but the key signature that's put on the sheet music is one sharp. Is it in G? No, it's in A mixolydian, tipping me off that all the G's in the tune are natural without a bunch of accidentals being used. I guess I mention this to illustrate the fluid nature of all this crap.

[Tone Taster]

OK, I have been teaching theory as it is applied to physically playing the guitar (within musical applications) siince 1998 and I have come to this conclusion:

 

That scales are a SECONDARY consideration to the actual chord tones for what chord you are playing over

 

Before you determine what scale is to be played (Cmaj or A Mi); you must determine the chord tones of each first.

 

So for the C Chord, we have C-E-G

Ami- A C, E

 

Now, you use the scale of no sharps and flats to connect to those chord tones

 

Eventually, the music demands a resolution point.

Those resolution points occur on the chord tones

 

The scale sequence gives fluidity and motion in order to set up a resolution

 

So if you are playing a C to Ami chord prog and you are to solo; then observe the differences and similarities between the CHORD TONES of each

 

C-E-G

A-C-E

 

So C & E are common denominators, but G and A differentiate the 2

 

So, when you are playing the no sharps/no flats scale, make sure you resolve to either a C, E, or G for a C chord

or an A,C, or E for an Ami

 

HOWEVER, (for right now for simplicity's sake) DO NOT resolve on an "A" over the C Chord and DO NOT resolve on the "G" over the Ami

 

Use the scale for motion and the chord tones for resolution

 

Motion-Resolution Motion-Resolution Motion-Resolution

Motion-Resolution Motion-Resolution Motion-Resolution

Motion-Resolution Motion-Resolution Motion-Resolution

Motion-Resolution Motion-Resolution Motion-ResolutionMotion-Resolution Motion-Resolution Motion-Resolution

Motion-Resolution Motion-Resolution Motion-Resolution

[Billster]

It's really relative.

 

If you are playing in a context of melody over chords, playing the notes C-D-E-G over an A minor chord tells your ear (and heart) one thing, and playing those notes over a D minor or a C major chord tells your ear (and again, your heart) a different thing.

 

Playing in a strictly single note environment (a la a Scottish reel, say) the way the lines resolve rhythmically defines the identity of the scale. If you play strictly C,D,E,F,G,A, and B with no sharps or flats, and your lines end up hitting the "A" on the strong downbeat, you are creating an A minor feel. If your lines resolve to "C" you are creating a C major environment. Study the melodies of Bach and see how they define the "chord changes" by way of their progress and resolutions.

 

EDIT: Also consider the lines of John Coltrane and Charlie Parker. Parker plays a massive amount of notes, and Coltrane of course is "sheets of sound", but if you strip away the rhythm section and look at the melodic choices, the chord changes are represented. THAT'S why they are giants in the history of music.

[Caevan O’Shite]

O.K., in answer to the initial question, one very simple explanation: same notes, different relationship between 'em when you start and finish on different points.

 

There is a step-wise pattern, note to note in intervals of whole or half steps, in a scale. Play the first three notes of the C Major scale, as an example (no sharps or flats to bother with):

 

C (up a whole-step to) D (up a whole-step to) E

 

Then using only the same notes found in the C Major scale, still no sharps or flats- but starting on A- play the first three notes of A minor:

 

A (up a whole-step to) B (up a HALF-step to) C

 

If you've literally played these, then the difference is both audibly and visually immediately obvious: the step-wise difference between the root and the 3rd (as well as the 2nd and the 3rd).

 

C to E, a whole-step plus a whole-step, creating a total interval of a Major 3rd.

 

A to C, a whole-step plus a half-step, creating a total interval of a minor 3rd.

 

Hmmmnnn, what other step-wise/intervalic differences can you find?

 

Oh- please forgive the contradiction, Bluesape, it's nothing personal, but whether you use sharps or flats depends solely on the parent-scale and its key-signature: that way, you use either only sharp-symbols, or only flat symbols, with few exceptions.

[Newbie Brad]

Copied from my post in another thread this morning which was focused on melodic minor:

 

"If you want some extra mileage for some major-key situations, play melodic minor phrases where the root of the third mode of the melodic minor scale is the root for your phrasing, and line it up so that is on the root of the major key. That's a bit like like saying the major key whose root is the root of the third mode of the melodic minor scale is the relative major key of that melodic minor scale (just a fun way to think about it). You can keep that overlay to choose melodic minor substitutions for the greek modes.

 

Same method works for any minor scale that has a minor third in it. The results are derived by a quick and crude method, not careful study, so you may find substitutions you like better after some analytical work.

 

And you probably only want to use as much of this for phrasing as your audience tolerates! You can always resolve back to more major phrases."

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by Newbie Brad:

"If you want some extra mileage for some major-key situations, play melodic minor phrases where the root of the third mode of the melodic minor scale is the root for your phrasing, and line it up so that is on the root of the major key. That's a bit like like saying the major key whose root is the root of the third mode of the melodic minor scale is the relative major key of that melodic minor scale (just a fun way to think about it).

Holy Smokes! Fun for who? My head hurts after just trying to read and interpret it!

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

Originally posted by Newbie Brad:

"If you want some extra mileage for some major-key situations, play melodic minor phrases where the root of the third mode of the melodic minor scale is the root for your phrasing, and line it up so that is on the root of the major key. That's a bit like like saying the major key whose root is the root of the third mode of the melodic minor scale is the relative major key of that melodic minor scale (just a fun way to think about it).

Holy Smokes! Fun for who? My head hurts after just trying to read and interpret it!

Yeah, it's kinda like doin' math in your head, huh?

 

I'd have to work it out with a guitar in my hand (and probably with a book-page of modes before me) to really get it under my wheels. I think it's probably a lot simpler in application than it is described in words!

[Corner Pocket]

The relative minor scale is the minor scale that shares the same key signature as a Major scale.

 

Relative Minor Relationships

 

C major (0 #'s or b's)- A minor (0 #'s or b's)

D major (2#'s)- B minor (2 #'s)

E major (4#'s)- C# minor (4#'s), et. etc.

 

Harmonic and melodic minor scales are *altered* scales, and the altered scale notes are covered by accidentals on the note, and are not part of the key signature.

 

A Tonic Minor relationship is the relationship between a major and minor scale with the same tonic, (starting note. Do, for those who like solfege).

 

Tonic Minor Relationships

C major (0 #'s or b's) C minor (3 b's)

D major (2 #'s) D minor (1 b)

E major (4 #'s) E minor (1#)

etc, etc.

 

Peace,

 

Paul

[Tone Taster]

Here is the General Concept:

 

C Major Scale

C-Root/8th

D-2nd/9th

E-3rd/10th

F-4th/11th

G-5th/12th

A-6th/13th

B-7th/14th

C-8th(Same as root)

 

Say you have a C Maj 7 Chord

 

C-E-G-B

 

So the intervals are

C-root

E-3rd

G-5th

B-7th

 

 

Notice that you have a Maj triad, C-E-G

and that you have an "E"

minor triad imbedded w/in

E-G-B

 

The Emi triad is built off of the 3rd interval from the C root

 

Does that make sense?

 

The minor triad is built off of the interval of the major 3rd of the C Major 7th Chord?

 

Befoe you get all sprayed up on the melodic minor usage, you're best off practicing playing an E minor pentatonic superimposed over a C Major 7th vamp/groove

 

Here are the notes for E Mi pent

 

E-G-A-B-D

 

If C Maj7 is the chord you are playing over, then look at what intevals the E mi pent scale tones are IN LIGHT OF THE C maj 7:

C Major Scale

C-Root/8th

D-2nd/9th

E-3rd/10th

F-4th/11th

G-5th/12th

A-6th/13th

B-7th/14th

C-8th(Same as root)

D-9th

[Caevan O’Shite]

You can refer to the Circle of Fifths for illustration. (This applies only to the twelve Major and twelve Natural minor keys, not counting enharmonics like D# and Eb which are really the same thing by different names.)

 

Count up an interval of a 6th -or- ascend three notches ratcheting up the Circle of Fifths to find the name of the Relative minor of a given key. It will share the same key-signature, same number of sharps or flats, as the Relative Major.

 

Here's an excellent 'page on the Circle of Fifths that I ran across, loads of info and detailed discussion:

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/icons/icon2.gif Theory On Tap/Circle of Fifths

 

Now, the Circle of fifths is usually displayed, more or less, as so, ascending clockwise in 5ths (thanks, Wikipedia!):

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ce/Fifths.png

 

As the following image that I'm borrowing from Compact Diss (who borrowed it from visionmusic.com) has a lot of good clear info like the actual Key Signatures, etc. described in its diagram, I wanted to provide it here, but for whatever reasons their image has the keys running counter-clockwise, ascending in 4ths; didn't want that to confuse things...

 

http://www.visionmusic.com/lessons/keyscycle.gif

 

Or, if ya want the relative minors all spelled out for ya:

 

http://cnx.rice.edu/content/m10865/latest/CircleofFifths.png

From the Connexions 'site:

"Figure 1: Major keys are red, minor keys blue. Key signatures are green. In theory, one could continue around the circle adding flats or sharps (so that B major is also C flat major, with seven flats, E major is also F flat major, with 6 flats and a double flat, and so on), but in practice such key signatures are very rare."

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Wow... so much stuff to look at and go through!

 

I'm definitely going to print this out over the weekend and try it all out on a guitar. I can't do it all in my head. Thanks, everyone!

[Guitar55]

This is great stuff. Lots of food for thought.

I am not as qualified to discuss this as some of our distinguished contributers. I have a "feel" for a lot of this without always being able to articulate it.

 

That being said, isn't another way to look at that the "no sharps or flats" Am scale (what mode is that?) is a variation on the A major scale that just happens to have the same notes as the C Major scale? Does this make sense?

 

I agree completely that the scales can only be "named" in the context of the associated chord changes.

 

Also, we always refer to the Relative Minor being the scale that starts on the 6th degree of a major scale. Are there special names for the minor scales that begin on the 2nd (Dm in this case) or 3rd degrees (Em)?

 

Please tell me if I'm being stupid.

[Funk Jazz]

you are probably already applying this stuff without knowing it... no need to get overly caught up in the details unless you are driven by obsessive curiosity (like myself).

 

the important thing to understand is what Caputo said about chords.

 

to simplify: if the tune presents a series of chords that begin or end with C, the C scale is appropriate because it resolves with the note C.

 

Like wise, if you're playing over chords that begin or end with an Ami chord, the A mi scale will resolve on A.

 

like Bill said, your heart can hear the difference even though the mind will only see patterns.

 

focus on music more than pattern. trust your heart and your ears more than your mind.

 

[Funk Jazz]

Originally posted by Guitar55:

This is great stuff. Lots of food for thought.

I am not as qualified to discuss this as some of our distinguished contributers. I have a "feel" for a lot of this without always being able to articulate it.

 

That being said, isn't another way to look at that the "no sharps or flats" Am scale (what mode is that?) is a variation on the A major scale that just happens to have the same notes as the C Major scale? Does this make sense?

 

I agree completely that the scales can only be "named" in the context opf the associated chord changes.

 

Also, we always refer to the Relative Minor being the scale that starts on the 6th degree of a major scale. Are there special names for the minor scales that begin on the 2nd (Dm in this case) or 3rd degrees (Em)?

 

Please tell me if I'm being stupid.

yes, they all have names... the greek modes:

 

Ionian: C D E F G A B ©

Dorian: D E F G A B C (D)

Phrygian: E F G A B C D (E)

Lydian: F G A B C D E (F)

Mixolydian: G A B C D E F (G)

Aeolian: A B C D E F G (A)

Locrian: B C D E F G A (B)

[Guitar55]

I meant a name like "Relative Minor", but thanks for the list.

[Caevan O’Shite]

"If (Ionian)

 

Dora (Dorian)

 

Plays (Phrygian)

 

Like (Lydian)

 

Me (Mixolydian)

 

All's (Aeolian)

 

Lost" (Locrian)