I'm learning to fingerpick

[MILLO]

Originally posted by musicalhair:

As for Aranjuez (or "Orange Juice") concerto, I'd not be surprised if he never played it (and I didn't realize he never played) not because of a perceived insult but because it is supposed to actually be unplayable and that every guitarists makes their own edits to it in order to pull it off. That is what I was told by two teachers anyway.

Segovia was famous for changing things so that he could play them, in the process breaking phrase lines or intended counterpoint. The Aranjuez, as it is, is playable, but some parts are extremely difficult because they aren't very idiomatic, especially when it comes to trying to play it loud enough or w/ a robust tone. Listen to Angel Romero for evidence of how 'the real thing' sounds. Even John Williams changes one or two passages a bit.

[Gruupi]

Danny Gatton is another that used a combination of pick and fingers at times. I guess on electric at least I prefer the combination of both. I don't want to lose all the sounds that you can get with a pick, but the fingers add another color.

 

As for the comments on Segovia, I can only go by what Iv'e read, I never met him. He seemed to be pretty arrogant but I am sure he had his good side. It seems like he had a great many friends that were glad to have him stay with them. I think modern classical players sound much better. I can't talk about interpretaion, that is personal choice. But Christopher Parkening, David Russel, and Angel Romero, among many others sound better. Segovia didn't do enough to control finger noise in my opinion. I am sure this point could be argued, but to my ears some of the squeeks overpowered the music, to my ears at least. Part of Segovia's arrogance was that if you didn't play it the way he did, with his fingerings and technique, he would think you were wrong. I think whatever you do that sounds good to your ear and suits your own anatomy is the way to go.

[J J]

i just started playing naked. I love it on acoustic but find it reasonably harder on electric. I've been using a pick on electric, but i do want to convert pickless. Plus I love the "SNAP!" sound you can get. Do that on a strat with warm tone and you got something...

[Phillydor]

Segovia was to guitar what Neil Armstrong was to ...ehhrrr....moonwalking. Hang on - no...that was Michael Jackson....

Here's a brief history lesson for those who are confused

Segovia

[MILLO]

"Those who are confused"?

 

I don't think anyone here has posted anything that emanates confusion on the topic, philemec. I stated my opinion that he was an arrogant asshole, and I stick by it. Yes, he brought all that attention to the guitar and was its most vocal advocate, but that doesn't change the fact he was an a-hole. Actually from a point on in his career, many could argue he really got the guitar STUCK in the past... just go ahead and read the Stravinsky anecdote.

 

Your Neil Armstrong analogy was funny, although maybe one could infer from it things that are actually PLAIN wrong. Neil Armstrong was the FIRST person to walk on the moon. Segovia did not invent modern guitar classical technique, he did not invent the guitar as a 'classical' instrument, was not the first person to record on guitar, etc.

[Phillydor]

That's ok,really. The old blokes probably up their having a giggle, pleased that he's still able to rattle the chains.

Thank God the divide between classical and other musical forms has broken down a lot these days - a lot of this has to do with classical players like John Williams, who was a student of Segovia.Sky was breaking a lot of ground in it's day.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

I'm really getting into the finger stuff. The other night I actually managed to get through Wild Woodflower, and at a fairly quick tempo too, though the "high" bit still needs work.

 

It feels as if I've never actually *played* the guitar before. The sense of contact is different, it's like discovering something deep inside the instrument which I'd never noticed before. By comparison, playing with a pick feels like trying to eat with a tennis racquet. Clumsy.

 

But ok... another question:

 

My nails are wearing down, especially on my middle finger but I don't like fingerpicks much, especially the Jim Dunlop ones that look like little claws. It just feels wrong. And they're kinda weak and I hate the way you have to "scoop" under the strings. It's all wrong.

 

But I've seen these "Alaska" brand ones that fit on like extension fingernails. Apprently you can cut them down to the right size and all.

 

Has anyone tried them? Opinions? I'm going to get some on Saturday but if you guys think they're crap I'd gladly save myself the sitting in traffic.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

I don't use fingerpicks myself, fo rthe very reasons you stated. I just could never get used to them (or thumbpicks). However, I have seen good things written about the Alaska picks.

 

I just use my nails and finger tips. I found that (for me) the trick is to not grow them too long and keep them filed to the correct shape, and to keep them coated with a good clear polish. I can only use my nails on nylon strings, though. Steel strings will destroy them in short order.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

I don't use fingerpicks myself, fo rthe very reasons you stated. I just could never get used to them (or thumbpicks). However, I have seen good things written about the Alaska picks.

I've been thinking that if the Alaskas don't pan out on Saturday, I could probably grab a set of normal, plastic fingerpicks and pare them down to size with a hot knife. I don't like the way that thumbpicks leave your thumb way up above the string. It feels all wrong.

 

Thanks for the comment on the Alaskas though.

[Gifthorse]

Do you mean fingerstyle on electric? I know Jeff Beck uses his fingers.

 

If you are referring to electric, it shouldn't be that hard on your nails. On acoustic it is, I recommend taking some vitamin or mineral supplements to strengthen your nails.

 

Playing electric without a pick isn't that hard.

[Gifthorse]

Also, there are different schools of thought on right hand fingerstyle.

 

Some guys like to use the nail always like Segovia. He wanted it to be very accurate sharp attack with the nail. He taught Leo Kottke for a while when Kottke was trying to retrain his right hand to avoid tendon problems he was having. Kottke strayed from Segovia's philosophy because he wanted a warmer fleshy sound at times.

 

I subscribe to this idealogy too. I like to be able to play finger style without ANY nails if I have to. I can still get a fairly sharp attack if I want to with minimal nails. I prefer to have some nails but I don't NEED them like a crutch or anything. I have callouses on my fingertips of my right hand from playing 12 string fingerstyle.

 

For electric I really think flesh sounds better. I like to almost slap the string sometimes to get a thunkier attack. Of course hammer ons and pull offs come into play if you are playing lead on electric and that is very noticable in Beck's style. If you perfect it, you can make your hammered/pulloff notes and picked notes meet in the middle so it is just uniform and hard to distinguish.

 

Doyle Dykes actually uses fake nails that he has done at a manicurist. I remember when I saw him at GC he said he had just been to the salon to have artificial nails glued on.

[Funk Jazz]

i would highly recommend working out of the Guitar Book by Pierre Bensusan. especially if you are not interested in the classical thing, but want to play fingerstyle well.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

Segovia...taught Leo Kottke for a while when Kottke was trying to retrain his right hand to avoid tendon problems he was having.

How COOL... I had no idea that Segovia had been involved. I'd love to have been the classic "fly on the wall" Must have made for some fascinating listening.

 

I prefer using the nails because of the sharper, cleaner (more picklike?) sound, but they're just wearing away.

 

It's not a problem so far but I'd hate to lose the sound and have to wait for it to come back along with my nails. I'll definitely look into the vitamin supplement thing.

 

But yeah, there's things to be said for using the flesh as well. My first "serious" string instrument was bass, so I have a certain residual interest in slaps and finger pops and so on.

 

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

Doyle Dykes actually uses fake nails that he has done at a manicurist. I remember when I saw him at GC he said he had just been to the salon to have artificial nails glued on.

So does Ani Difranco, but I've read somewhere that she also reinforces the nail glue by wrapping gaffa tape around her fingers. Now THAT's rugged!

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

Some guys like to use the nail always like Segovia. He wanted it to be very accurate sharp attack with the nail. He taught Leo Kottke for a while when Kottke was trying to retrain his right hand to avoid tendon problems he was having. Kottke strayed from Segovia's philosophy because he wanted a warmer fleshy sound at times.

 

Where did you find this information? I found that interesting so I went searching and could find nothing to support it. I can find plenty of information about students like John Williams, Christopher Parkening, Julian Bream, etc., but nothing about Kottke. I researched everything I could find on Kottke and on Segovia. The reason I found it interesting was that it is the first I have EVER heard of Segovia even considering taking a student that was not a dedicated Classical player. He was generally VERY picky about that. If you didn't have a level of dedication to playing Classical music on par with that of Parkening, Williams or Bream, you just didn't last. You may not have had the same level of talent and ability, but the dedication had to be there. I had never heard of him teaching anyone from a different musical genre.

 

I know that he did, in fact, suffer from tendonitis in the early '80s and it nearly killed his career. And, I know he also switched to a more Classical oriented technique then, but I can't find any evidence, nor had I ever heard that Segovia trained him.

 

I'd love to read whatever material was your source.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

Where did you find this information? I found that interesting so I went searching and could find nothing to support it...

Well, I hope it's true.

 

The whole concept of Segovia and Kottke playing together has a fantastic, "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" feel to it.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by Kramer Ferrington III.:

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

Where did you find this information? I found that interesting so I went searching and could find nothing to support it...

Well, I hope it's true.

 

The whole concept of Segovia and Kottke playing together has a fantastic, "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" feel to it.

Yes, it does. That's why I wanted to read more on it......

[Gifthorse]

I don't remember exactly where I read this but I know it is true.

 

I think it may have been in an interview with Kottke or inside one of his CD's. I will look around.

 

I have also read that Segovia was very 'picky' about who he chose, but keep in mind he taught Esteban!!

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

I don't remember exactly where I read this but I know it is true.

 

I think it may have been in an interview with Kottke or inside one of his CD's. I will look around.

 

I have also read that Segovia was very 'picky' about who he chose, but keep in mind he taught Esteban!!

There is a guy here in Woodstock, Georgia that is affiliated with a local music academy that specializes in Classical Guitar. His name is Esteban Anastasio.

 

Anyway, Esteban is obviously a Classically trained guitarist and, from what I hear, a pretty decent one. That doesn't necessarily make him an honest businessman though, does it?

 

I'm really not all that surprised to hear that Esteban studied under Segovia (Segovia did have a ton of students), because he is a Classical guitarist. Leo Kottke isn't a Classical Guitarist...in fact, his music tends to be so ecclectic as to defy "pigeonholing". I don't even know what you would call his genre (but it is some damned fine guitar playing). It just surprises me that Segovia would accept him as a student, especially that late in his career.

[Gifthorse]

I have heard the guy Esteban on TV selling a guitar. That is teh guy I was referring to.

 

You know I did a quick search about Kottke and Segovia and I wasn't able to find anything. I will look further later. I can't believe I would confabulate this. I mean I remember reading it.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

I have heard the guy Esteban on TV selling a guitar. That is teh guy I was referring to.

 

Yeah, I knew who you were talking about...I just thought it was a funny ko-inky-dink that there was another Esteban that was a Classical Guitar teacher.

 

Out of curiosity I went to Esteban's website and listened to some of his playing. The guy's no slouch. Plus, he saved a ton on his car insurance.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

You know I did a quick search about Kottke and Segovia and I wasn't able to find anything.

There's an interview with Kottke that's quoted pretty much all over google and there he talks about Mississippi John Hurt and he says:

 

"Segoviad be upset that theres no nail, because Segovia was very now,Im getting this third hand but Segovia really preferred to hear the nail alone, which is the way John Williams plays, and possibly also Julian Bream."

 

If he was a sudent of Segovia's it's very unlikely that he would be getting stuff like this third hand.

 

And I don't think it's very possible that Kottke went on to become a student of Segovia's sometime after the interview because he's talking about Segovia in the past tense, as if he was already dead.

 

Had Segovia been merely retired, he would still have his preferences in whether he wanted to hear the nail or just the flesh.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE the story to be true, it just doesn't seem to pan out. Sadly, we can't ask The Man Himself because there's no "email Leo" link on LK's home page.

 

And I can't be arsed writing his management either. Let us know what you find, it'd be SO cool.

 

On Esteban: "Esteban" is just "Steven" in Spanish and it's what Segovia called him. The Esteban on TV is an American.

[njrocker]

I haven't been around this site for a while. This thread reminded me of what interesting and informative people hang around here.

[Gifthorse]

I will try and find the article or quote, I could be wrong though.

 

I swear I read that though..

[Bbach1]

Originally posted by CaevanO'Shite:

Derek Trucks gets a killer sound without any picks of any kind, too.

Word!

And let's not forget Kevin Eubanks.