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What are the differences between Pro, semi pro,writers, performers, and hobbyists


Dr. Ellwood

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Gee Ellwood, I should apologize. I misread your intentions and your methods. You really are on the "up and up" here and not taking pot shots or picking fights. You really must be all about fostering good discussion.

 

Part of the "problem" might be that you don't really define your topics all that well. here is an example-- see I'm just trying to help and move the coversation forward as you do.

 

See, this thread is titled "Topic: What are the differences between Pro, semi pro,writers, performers, and hobbyists", which is an odd collection of labels. It is hardly complete, and some what "stacked". But, you're first post goes like this:

 

Originally posted by ellwood:

For a long time now on this Forum I have seen many different aspects and approaches to playing guitar. In many instances these differences have seemed to cause clashes in philosophical viewpoints. There seems to be a general attitude that players who do not write original material are somehow not complete in their motivations and have missed out on the creative part of their musical experience. What if any is the value in playing cover songs? Is the motivation to work in a cover band a far second to being in a original material band even if the original band does not work? I think a discussion of these attitudes might be a healthy and focused thing to ponder.

Your first post has nothing to do with your topic. See your topic pits five categories to be compared, but they are not directly comparable. Pro, semi Pro, and hobbyist are all directly related. a hobbyist participates in an activity for the joy of it and gains no income from it. A Pro makes their living at "it" regardless of what it is or does it full time regardless of what they make the bulk of their money doing-- unless you've got a better definition of "pro". A semi-pro, is sort of ambiguous I'd say it must be someone that either is engaged in their activity like a part time job or is underemployed. A writer is unrelated to these categories. A "professional" writer would be one that is published, but when they are "writing" they are working but not being paid unless they have an advance. A semi pro writer might be one that writes small articles for a local paper or something, someone that makes a little cash on the side, perhaps while waiting for their "big" break (or not). A "performer" could anything from an exhibitionist to a street performer to a hobbiest at open mic nights all the way up to a professional. In any event, you didn't even address these in your initial post.

 

What you did address was something different. You talk about attitudes and you claim to feel slighted. I addressed this in a previous post and don't need to here, but here is the link to my post dealing with your issues on page two of this thread (post number 42 of the thread) . Now I still haven't seen an instance where you were slighted, excepting for those instances where you invited it in the first place.

 

{EDIT:, wow, I hit add reply when I meant to hit preview. I'm finishing this up as an edit to keep my train of thought. Sorry.}

 

IN any event, you have a topic and inspite of your best efforts to avoid it, it has been addressed. You have an initial post, and it has been addressed as well. I agree that there is some good information in here, but there is also a lot of questioning of your tactics and a lot of you insisting you're innocent.

 

After your initial post, you post like three times defending your motives and then take a reasonable post from Vince and turn it into an insult. Sorry dude: it looks like you're being bogus and looking for a fight. At that point in the discussion you could have moved it foward and addressed either your topic or your initial post but instead you picked a fight out of essentially thin air.

 

This thread proceeds on three fronts after that: a discussion of definitions of "pro", a discussion about the history of the composer/performer, and a discussion of you being a nice guy with ancillary mention of the union and royalties. You spend the rest of the thread picking fights. Reread it if you think otherwise.

 

I don't care if you pick a fight, go ahead. I kinda don't care if you pull any lame passive-agressive stunts where you pretend you're not picking fights. But, when called out on it, then cut it out. Either admit you're picking fights or make up some excuse like you've got ADD or something and that is why your topic is unrelated to your initial post and why you intended to post on topic but got distracted and just ended up in the mud with Miroslav and half the rest of the people that posted here.

 

Anything else I have to say is in previous posts here. But if you're not going to 'fess up to picking the fights here or 'fess up to setting up a bogus topic (again, look at the categories and consider what is there and what isn't), or 'fess up to setting up an ambush of a first post (feigning defensiveness over being slighted for playing covers, when all you really wanted to do was to attack perfectly peaceful songwriters that aren't hurting no one here) then you're participataion is just a big goof on the forum-- isn't it?

Oh, that's right: I'm apologizing in this post, sorry. I forgot that you're not picking fights and are really innocent and just trying to move the discussion foward. Wow, I really don't like passive agressive tactics. Good thing you're not like "doing them", right Ellwood?

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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Originally posted by musicalhair:

Gee Ellwood, I should apologize. I misread your intentions and your methods. You really are on the "up and up" here and not taking pot shots or picking fights. You really must be all about fostering good discussion.

 

Part of the "problem" might be that you don't really define your topics all that well. here is an example-- see I'm just trying to help and move the coversation forward as you do.

 

:D

 

See, this thread is titled "Topic: What are the differences between Pro, semi pro,writers, performers, and hobbyists", which is an odd collection of labels. It is hardly complete, and some what "stacked". But, you're first post goes like this:

 

Originally posted by ellwood:

For a long time now on this Forum I have seen many different aspects and approaches to playing guitar. In many instances these differences have seemed to cause clashes in philosophical viewpoints. There seems to be a general attitude that players who do not write original material are somehow not complete in their motivations and have missed out on the creative part of their musical experience. What if any is the value in playing cover songs? Is the motivation to work in a cover band a far second to being in a original material band even if the original band does not work? I think a discussion of these attitudes might be a healthy and focused thing to ponder.

Your first post has nothing to do with your topic. See your topic pits five categories to be compared, but they are not directly comparable. Pro, semi Pro, and hobbyist are all directly related. a hobbyist participates in an activity for the joy of it and gains no income from it. A Pro makes their living at "it" regardless of what it is or does it full time regardless of what they make the bulk of their money doing-- unless you've got a better definition of "pro". A semi-pro, is sort of ambiguous I'd say it must be someone that either is engaged in their activity like a part time job or is underemployed. A writer is unrelated to these categories. A "professional" writer would be one that is published, but when they are "writing" they are working but not being paid unless they have an advance. A semi pro writer might be one that writes small articles for a local paper or something, someone that makes a little cash on the side, perhaps while waiting for their "big" break (or not). A "performer" could anything from an exhibitionist to a street performer to a hobbiest at open mic nights all the way up to a professional. In any event, you didn't even address these in your initial post.

 

What you did address was something different. You talk about attitudes and you claim to feel slighted. I addressed this in a previous post and don't need to here, but here is the link to my post dealing with your issues on page two of this thread (post number 42 of the thread)

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ellwood,

 

I think you are trying any way possible to fuel the cover/original debate...even though you seem to be bothered by my opinions.

Wassup dude?

 

Also...I never brought up MY original work...you did...

...and now you are fixated with it.

We were talking in general, about originals and doing covers in an original wayVSdoing the typical note-for-note cover grind.

 

As far as my musicI don't post up sound files.

Never had that desire, mostly because I am NOT in need of any recognition or praise from you, or anyone else for that matter.

I write and record for myself.

Also...I never claimed that my originals were better than anyone's...including your cover playing.

It is YOU that keeps twisting this into some contest...???

 

Like I said previously...I am working on an new albums worth of music right now...and when it is finished...

...since you have shown SUCH a deep interest in what I write...

...I'll possibly offer up some CD copies to folks here, and then you can get one if you like.

 

Weather or not you believe that I really DO write/record my own music...is totally irrelevant to me.

You really ARE so eager to measure uprather than just debate the issues in a general way.

 

But since you keep buggin me to post up something so's you can measure upheres a few pictures of my digs.

This will have to hold you til I finish up the album.

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/miroslavl/studio_mix01.jpg

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/miroslavl/studio_drums.jpg

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/miroslavl/studio_guitars04.jpg

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/miroslavl/studio_mix02.jpg

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/miroslavl/studio_guitars02.jpg

 

 

Now you see why I don't miss the bar-band scene all that much.

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Not really, until something tangible comes OUT of the equipment it's nothing more than anyone elses project studio. I post live material done with a 30 year old Teac A1200U one pa feed and two remote SM57's it's raw but it's real. That said, you have a very nice studio! great instruments (wish I could have all those) I'm just afraid I couldn't do justice to them. Ok waiting for the cd to be done, nothing to post before the cd I guess?
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i wan't to point out that I accidently hit "add reply" when wanting to hit "preview" half way through my last post. I had hoped to get my finished post in before anyone got in here, but that didn't happen. Sorry.

 

Anyway.

 

A complete musician can create music, learn existing, and understand music. You don't get through any theory class without writing parts or whole compositions demonstrating understanding and at least some creativity and you don't get through those classes without analyzing existin music. You also don't get decent lessons without learning existing music. At the very least you can't understand the music without playing existing music.

 

We can "write music" we can play existing music or we can improvise music. You can only do any of those in a limited way if you shut out the others.

 

To perform existing music we depend on muscle memory, aural memory and analytical memory. We usually get through a bit of existing music on muscle memory, but if we get off the rails we need to hear where we need to be or remember what is going on from an analytical point of view to get back on track. To improvise we only need muscle memory as much as it will get us to the next note we "hear" in our head or "think" will work, or to play riffs we plug in to our playing. Aural memory and analytical memory will make our parts sound good and original so long as our muscle memory gets us to those notes.

 

When writing music we have to understand the way and instrument is played but plent of people have written-- even for guitar-- that couldn't play guitar at all. Still, writting music relys heavily on our knowledge of existing music both from being a part of the culture we are writting in and from the way we gain understanding of music in order to be able to write.

 

If there is any division according to the way we approach music, rather than pro or semi-pro or writter that we have as this topic we could compare 1) performing existing music 2) improvising music on the spot or 3) writting music.

 

Anyway I think that is a more valid way of comparing what we are comparing, and we'll avoid the pissing contests and the bogus underhanded attacks of people's "artisitry".

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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Then why don't you start a thread that takes that approach? You seem to be hyper-critical of how others start threads? Like I said in a earlier comment, it is too easy to poke holes in an existing thread with all the iterations going on as a natural result of normal conversation. It is especially easy when you get near the end of a topic. Looking forward to your well thought out original threads.
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"We can "write music" we can play existing music or we can improvise music. You can only do any of those in a limited way if you shut out the others"

 

How pray tell, has not writing original music damaged my ability to play or improvise? How would writing original music enhance my playing? Not theoretically, but in reality. Sounds pretty lofty to me and may not be based in actual fact?

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Originally posted by ellwood:

it's nothing more than anyone elses project studio.

Mmmmm...yeah...OK... ;)

 

Ok waiting for the cd to be done, nothing to post before the cd I guess?
Well...I have some older stuff...but like most people, my current music is what I prefer to focus on. Even I dont listen to some of that older musicso no point is posting it up for you.

Right now, I have a bunch of songs in various stages of tracking/editing...with only one or two rough mixes.

I am NOT going to post up a rough mix just to pacify you...and then have to listen to comments about how come it don't sound polished, since I have all that great equipmentetc

So...when it's done...it's done.

 

However, my not posting up a song or two for you to judge...has NOTHING to do with continuing this debate about originals/covers...etc.

 

I'm sorry you took my comments so personally, but then, it was you who started this thread.

So...when you ask for opinions about something...then live with what you get!

 

As much as I am focused on originals and recording...I do envy you guys that get to play out on any regular basis. I really miss that.

But...there are only so many hours in the day...can't do everything...have to make some choices now and then. :)

 

OK...got some recording going' on this afternoon and evening...so see ya!

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Miro, very true about the available time! In order to do what I call a very professional job of covering (lets call it entertaining) HAY!! did I hit on it? is that the difference possibly? not sure. Anyway I am sincerely looking forward to hearing your original work. From my perspective I will listen very closely to the musicianship, the complexity and training that should be a part of the composition. I hope to hear the result of that work demonstrating years of club work and training. I am sure I will hear a very well thought out and commercially palatable product. I hope so truly! I have known really allot of writers over the years and none have been able to sell anything. I worked with Holland Dozer and Holland years ago, in fact they wrote for us at Hot Wax. Their team approach worked very well.
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Originally posted by ellwood:

Then why don't you start a thread that takes that approach? You seem to be hyper-critical of how others start threads? Like I said in a earlier comment, it is too easy to poke holes in an existing thread with all the iterations going on as a natural result of normal conversation. It is especially easy when you get near the end of a topic. Looking forward to your well thought out original threads.

I'm just glad you've moved on from goofing on "artists". I'll start threads when I feel like it, but it won't be to pick fights.

 

 

Originally posted by ellwood:

"We can "write music" we can play existing music or we can improvise music. You can only do any of those in a limited way if you shut out the others"

 

How pray tell, has not writing original music damaged my ability to play or improvise? How would writing original music enhance my playing? Not theoretically, but in reality. Sounds pretty lofty to me and may not be based in actual fact?

What makes you think I know enough about you to say what you're missing out on if you haven't had to write any music? I wouldn't presume to speak for you.

 

I do know that you have to write music in every: theory class, counterpoint class, orchestration class, and arranging class. You yourself say you like arranging: how can you arrange anything if you don't write anything? At best it is orchestration.

 

In any event if you've never written anything or even created a part-- not that I think that is even possible-- then you don't know what you might be missing. I'd wonder how you "understand" the music or is it all muscle and aural memory. If there is a shortcoming it would be there, that since we depend on three memories you are short changing the third one.

 

Think about it: you are proposing a set of limitation and asking me how it might effect your ability to improvise or "play", you sound like the guys that say "I don't want to take lessons man, it ruins my creativity". If you see no use for writting then maybe you have no use for it. I know you don't get through a theory class without writting at least something, if you want to pretend there is no reason for that-- when every school offering performance degrees require a whole lotta theory classes and much more writting in other classes-- well that is your choice.

 

Hey, I'm just glad you're not posting things like this anymore:

 

Originally posted by ellwood:

Hay! on second thought, I think I am going to become an artist on the Forum! I know how to do it from examples by Miroslav! First I talk about writing and elude to some work I have done. I cannot display any of this work though, well because someone might want to steal my work, so I'm covered there. Hay this is very easy, I should have done this along time ago! :thu: This ain't workin, this is how ya do it!

or this:

 

Originally posted by ellwood:

... I seldom stray too far from the original, unless I have it nailed then sometimes I do. But remember your not an artist though, I can tell ya how to be if you wanna be! Directions are in the post above this one :D

I mean it is not like you're being a prick or picking fights here, so I'm glad it will stop looking like it too.

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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I have done production and arranging for vocal and instrumental application at the following studios: HotWax, Motown Studio B, Super Disk, University of Michigan school of music, Wayne State University, Michigan State University. I have written and charted arrangements for horn, piano, guitar, vocal. I have never written a complete work and have never copy written any original work. I am not a writer of original music in this context.
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You're not really making a point either.

 

You're the one faning flames of discontent here. I'm simply saying that a complete musician does more than play existing music and does more than improvise his way out of everything and does more than write songs exclusively. When seeing it that way all we have are: personal preferences for any or all of these things and the means by which we came to doing what we do. Not having anything copywrited or not isn't what I'm talking about anyway. I'm just saying that every classical guitarist had to have written something in order to get the degree, so goofing on people that like writing is only picking a fight.

 

You don't really get taught theory without writing music, and since understanding "theory" or music is the third leg of our memory system when performing music, one can conclude that writing music helps understanding music and thus helps in the performance of it. See, I'm trying to break down the barriers between people that you are busy erecting. If you think writing music doesnt' help understand music then you're not arguing with me but decades of tradition.

 

Dude, I don't care if you never wrote nothing, never arranged nothing, and never learned a single scale or a single tune. It doesn't matter. Be glad for what you do and for having a chance to do what you want and to avoid what you dont' want. But don't goof on people that don't have the same prefferences as you or anything. And don't make assumptions about what other people can or can't do based on what you think they've done or are doing. Especially when all you're doing is ranking it compared to what you've done. And don't pretend you're not doing that all up and down this thread: it is exactly what you're doing, and pretending otherwise is just a really lame way to be. All the gigs in the world won't change that.

 

Look at this thread. Are you a guy that worked for motown and plays as many nights a week as you want? No, right here you're a guy picking fights. As far as I'm concerned you're a guy picking fights in this thread. I don't care how many pots of coffee you brewed at hot wax or how creative or important to the proccess you were. It obviously should inform your participation here, but what good here comes of it has nothing to with what you've done in the real world but what you type here.

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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Hair, the ONLY reason I mentioned my past experience at those studios was to show that I don't write music as it is being defined here! I was trying to show that even if I have done production/arrangement etc. doesn't mean I am a writer of songs. I have NEVER written even one word of lyric! So although you may not care for my writing, I don't care for yours equally. I guess that cancels each others opinion out somehow? I pay no more attention to your opinions than you do to mine. We disagree on most things it seems and thats great because I am not looking for your buy in to anything. I think that if I found myself agreeing with you many things I would have to take a deep look at my opinions and modify them quickly.
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Originally posted by ellwood:

Hair, the ONLY reason I mentioned my past experience at those studios was to show that I don't write music as it is being defined here! I was trying to show that even if I have done production/arrangement etc. doesn't mean I am a writer of songs. I have NEVER written even one word of lyric! So although you may not care for my writing, I don't care for yours equally. I guess that cancels each others opinion out somehow? I pay no more attention to your opinions than you do to mine. We disagree on most things it seems and thats great because I am not looking for your buy in to anything. I think that if I found myself agreeing with you many things I would have to take a deep look at my opinions and modify them quickly.

QUOTE by Musical Hair "so goofing on people that like writing is only picking a fight."

 

So if this analogy holds true, then anyone that goofs on people that only play covers is picking a fight...it that correct? OR being called a human Jukebox is not fanning the flames is it? lets look at mixed standards for a moment.

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Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by ellwood:

Hair, the ONLY reason I mentioned my past experience at those studios was to show that I don't write music as it is being defined here! I was trying to show that even if I have done production/arrangement etc. doesn't mean I am a writer of songs. I have NEVER written even one word of lyric! So although you may not care for my writing, I don't care for yours equally. I guess that cancels each others opinion out somehow? I pay no more attention to your opinions than you do to mine. We disagree on most things it seems and thats great because I am not looking for your buy in to anything. I think that if I found myself agreeing with you on too many things I would have to take a deep look at my opinions and modify them quickly.

QUOTE by Musical Hair "so goofing on people that like writing is only picking a fight."

 

So if this analogy holds true, then anyone that goofs on people that only play covers is picking a fight...it that correct? OR being called a human Jukebox is not fanning the flames is it? lets look at mixed standards for a moment.

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Miroslav. I dig your digs man.

 

I'm still straddling the fence on this issue.

 

Tony Orlando still makes good money off performing tie a yellow ribbon, so do Captian and Tonille on Muskrat love. I don't think they even wrote those songs.

 

My point on this makes as much sense as the rest of this thread.

 

See, I only write and play my own stuff in my own little work. I never get the chance to play in public. I would love to play live, even a cover tune.

 

Also, I would be interested to listen to your music because I am always looking from something new to listen to. I'm never insterested in stealing other peoples ideas. Mainly I want to hear what you can do with that fabulous studio.

 

Me I post all my shit online for free on my goofy web-site. I wish people would email feed back, but I just don't seem to get that much.

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Originally posted by ellwood:

Hair, the ONLY reason I mentioned my past experience at those studios was to show that I don't write music as it is being defined here! I was trying to show that even if I have done production/arrangement etc. doesn't mean I am a writer of songs.

If I may step in here...

 

I majored in commercial arranging at Berklee. What "commercial" means is not advertising commercials. It means taking a piece of music (a jazz standard, a Brill Building style, whatever) written by someone else and preparing it for a certain setting. Taking "Yesterday" by the Beatles and realizing it for a guitar and saxophone duet. Like that.

 

I believe what Hair is getting at is that if you can create lines for an ensemble setting like that even if you didn't write the chord changes and melody, you are creatively writing music. Trying to nail down what was played on a recording is transcribing. Fleshing out a lead sheet for a given ensemble is creative writing, so don't sell yourself short.

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Thanks for the clarification on that. I think we are really talking about POP lyric writing with instrumental backing for the purpose of selling the product to a known artist? I just have never thought of what I have done in the past as writing as it is commonly referred to on this forum? I might be wrong though? I guess in a way I have written things for studios or producers that don't write standard notation but play guitar to help them get their ideas together for ensemble. OK THEN a little more respect around here for Ellwood please :D:thu:
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Originally posted by musicalhair:

...The fact that guitar is a vehicle both for writers and for performers and for various tasks is no surprise. The fact that there are differences between people drawn to these different tasks is no surprise either. Agitating those differences is stupid, IMO.

 

If it is all about creativity then nothing here in this thread is to the point anyway. you can be completely without any creativity or talent and write a song and you can be competely without any creativity or talent and "cover" a song. If you're happy then that is all that should count to you.

 

If you take your work out into the real world and no one likes it there are steps you can take. All that counts is taking those steps whenever they are needed or not. This forum is about helping each other take those steps and not fabricating a lack of respect for the sole purpose of watching a 4 page thread grow over differences between songwriters and performers.

 

Very few of us are living out our "plan A", some are still working on it, some are way into plan B and C, and some never had a plan. Regardless of where we are or what we do, we should help each other here and not just divide each other.

 

Good God, is this a "Tony Bennett vs Nick Drake" thread, or a "Tony Bennett wannabe vs a Nick Drake wannabe" thread, or are the main protagonists of the thread too stupid to see that difference between writing and performing has nothing to do with their quality of participation in the forum.

Aside from calling me stupid, what are you talking about? :confused:

 

The first section of your post I quoted in bold is exactly the point. Except you don't even understand how what you posted has to do with Lee's original question. His point was exactly what you said. Why do some people disrespect musicians who simply enjoy playing music, but have no ambition to write music? The simple answer is, either you excel at what you do or you don't. There shouldn't be this judgemental division, yet there it is. Why?

 

The second bold quote has you accusing Lee of fabricating this common attitude. And you deign to make this accusation while saying this forum is for helping one another! Talk about hypocritical. :rolleyes: He asked a simple question and so far has received pre-judgemental answers, accusations that he's trolling for a writers suck/covers suck thread, and now you accuse him of fabricating an attitude that is as prevalent as any I've experienced in 30+ years of playing.

 

You reiterate that we should help one another, not divide, in the next bold quote. Again, Lee isn't looking to divide anyone, IMO. He wants to understand why anyone would seek to divide the musical community this way. But what do anyone's original/current/lack of a plan have to do with his question of why someone would look down on another musician for having no ambition to write music?

 

Finally, you take a question I put forth, "Does anyone have less respect for Tony Bennett because he's not a songwriter?" and make up some nonsense about it being some comparison to Nick Drake, then call me stupid for asking the question? WTF is that about? So much for helping each other. How about showing the least modicum of respect for one another? If you don't care to answer the question than ignore it.

 

The reason I posted it is because there is a common attitude in jazz and country that original music and standards are equally respected in performance. (Even the semantics are different because of the respect attached to the label.) Sure, there's respect for great writers. But no one looks down on Tony Bennett for simply performing. It is equally common in rock and roll to look down on musicians who do not write their own music. That's not fabricating an issue to drive a thread's post count up. It's a common fact that this attitude pervades rock music.

 

So again, Why is this the case?? And to Lee's original point in asking, do we find value in playing covers and, if so, why? If not, why not?

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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Ok, I too admit that the title didn't seem to match the question. In attempting to answer the title -- at least in part -- a discussion developed about the different symantics of pro, semi-pro, and hobbyist when applied to musicians.

 

However, the real question is in the middle of the first post:

There seems to be a general attitude that players who do not write original material are somehow not complete in their motivations and have missed out on the creative part of their musical experience.
I think that's a valid question. The defensiveness shows in the next sentence:

What if any is the value in playing cover songs?
Now, I've not been here long enough to know first hand, but together with the beginning of the post this alludes to other posts that have the general theme of something like "if you can't write music, you aren't a real musician; you're not a real guitar player if you're not also a songwriter". Now, it could be that is not what was actually written, but how some opinions were perceived.

 

Now, I for one will go on record as being somewhat of a musical "snob". (No big surprise to some, I'm sure.) :P I put value in a formal and thorough education in music. If this question were worded differently, I probably would have immediately jumped on the "everybody should strive to be a songwriter" band wagon. Instead -- seeing how the question was presented -- I tried to approach it a little more cautiously, and with more thought than a knee-jerk response.

 

In so doing, my own personal search brought me to the conclusion that yes, the guy playing covers -- even note-for-note -- is every bit a musician as any other musician. Music is a performance art, and performing matters. This really went against my ego-driven view that writers -- myself included -- are so much more. The problem stems from technology that has cheapened the art of musical performance, i.e. "playing live".

 

I too was misled by looking to visual arts for comparison. It makes more sense to compare music to other performing arts, such as dance and theater. Is an actor any less for "only" reading lines from a script (or teleprompter) -- anybody could do that! -- even if in doing so they convey to you such a moving performance that you are driven to tears or laughter more so than the words alone ever could have done?

 

Miroslav, I'm even more bored to tears than you are when playing covers note-for-note, as bass is my primary instrument. I'm much happier "coloring outside the lines" by improv'ing and writing my own arrangements. My inclination when I hear someone play something "elementary" like straight quarters on on open string is something like "how unimaginative and dull ... I could play something more creative and brilliant". But that's just ego talking, right? That "elementary" player is up on stage performing, and yes Ellwood, entertaining. In short, being a musician.

 

In terms of collegiate-level study of music, yes, performance majors study counterpoint and orchestration. The difference is that composition majors study composition more intensely, and performance majors study performance more intensely. In the end, the composition student is judged primarily by his/her compositions, and the performance student is judged primarily by his/her performances. So at this level, yes, performers learn and perform at least some rudimentary composition. But a college degree in music is not necessary to enter the trade, is it?

 

Now, what about the other end of the stick? I'll post on that later.

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Quote by Ellwood: "What if any is the value in playing cover songs?"

 

That was and still is a valid question. There was no intention to divide, rather it was a declaration that these diverse opinions DO exists within the community of musicians. We do not ignore a problem in order to resolve it.

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Wow, I was really hoping this thread would have dropped down to the bottom of the page. Still I can't let it go, especially since stuff I said is being addressed.

 

OK, Ellwood: I think we agree a lot. I also think that the times we disagree are ... well ... interesting I guess might be the word. Really, we have agreed a lot; but once we agree their ain't much more to talk about. I think the natures of our disagreement here are like threefold: 1) you're defining something too narrowly and I don't want to really figure out what that somethign is but it is either guitar playing or writing or artist or something; a lot of this thread is about some "dis" you feel and you must have felt it long before this thread got going because you start off expressing it and many of the posts on the first page are about the chance that you're setting up a fight in the thread; and 3) regardless of things like "human jukebox" (which, is that a bad thing? and I'll go looking for that shortly, I never said it) you don't have to go goofing on people like your "artist" post which I quoted because dude you are better than that. I look at that kind of thing at it makes me want to jump in, which I did. I don't think that if you read this thread objectively you'd fault me for jumping in as I think I see you picking on some people. I've said many times that I've not seen you being dissed in here, so as for me 'thinking it's alright' or anything: I don't. I'll go one step further: when you had some milestone recently I said you had become an important member of the community or something like that, and I meant it. I don't say too manythings lightly, and that wasn't one of them. I really do respect you and your experience, anyone that is "dissing" you for playing covers is probably being very immature. Each time the issues got raised I brought jazz and classical players up, equating playing covers with exactly what the best do. Hell, I even said that when I play "originals" it is always with other people that are "songwriters" and I tried to make the whole "playing originals" ambiguous like that.

 

Also, I did read your opinions and your posts. Think about it: look back to where I'm quoting you and describing the way this thread developed, I must be reading and understanding something. If I'm turning a blind eye to any disrespect you've been getting, well it wasn't intentional at all. I do think you took the point about playing "Bus Stop" by the Hollies in a completely wrong way I thought he was like throwing you a bone or tipping his hat to you if he like wears a hat which I don't know if he does or anything.

 

Anyway, if we disagree over any of the things this thread is about it would be that I think we should agree on these catagories before duking it out. Pro, Semi-pro, hobbiest are all things you can compare. Performer and writer don't fit as a separate catagories from those. I listed a bunch of tasks that all must be done to play a show and make music, saying that some are more drawn to them than others but all are needed. I've often noticed that guys that paid bands to back them up in clubs so they could sing or play their originals were very different than the guys they were paying. I walked in to the club always think I'm here to play for these people, but the guy paying me I often suspected thought these people were here to see him perform. When I've played bass for singer/songwriters on their demos what was clear to me was that writing and getting ideas out and finished was most important to these guys. What they did with the demos I often have no idea-- nothing in most cases I think.

 

Anyway, that has been how I see it, and there are about a thousand other things we can do with music that I've left out. If we are going to do the category thing, let's make meaningful and well planned categories.

 

If we're just going to have a "cover" vs "original" fight, well come on: are you going to hold it against me if I call the exercise "stupid". That word seems to set people off, sorry. In any event what good would come of a fight between covers and originals? None.

 

Don't ask me why I'm leaving out the "value" of playing covers? Man, did I already address that.

 

Hey FantastikSound, no man: I dont' think I'm calling you stupid. I certain don't mean to. I think since yo mentioned Tony Bennett and I through in a rather poorly developed question of if this is "Tony Bennett vs Nick Drake" it could easily look like a reference to you, and thus the reference would have to have some purpose. But, no I guess Tony Bennett was fresh in my head from your post but I wasn't think about your post. I guess I thought I was refering to Tony Bennett on my own, instead I was "covering" your riff :D in a sense. All I meant was to take to singers that are or were really talented and that no one would doubt that, and I guess I figured that just raising them up in the same sentence together would show that both ways of doing things have "value".

 

I dont' know if I have more people I need to "get back to" here or not. I'm going to re-read all this later and see if I missed anyone.

 

As for dissing a guy that plays nearly every night in a cover band: I'm still rubbing and scratching and peeling and washing "primer" off my hands before dinner, I'm not dissing anyone man. Not me, not today, and I don't really think ever.

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You know the line in Nashville Cats about "can play twice as better 'n I will"? Most any guy in a cover band can play twice as better 'n I will.

 

I still have the guts to call myself a guitar player.

 

The gist of this is that we are trying to compare apples to oranges, and peoples various attitudes towards which is somehow better, when they are just different.

 

 

Bill

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

You know the line in Nashville Cats about "can play twice as better 'n I will"? Most any guy in a cover band can play twice as better 'n I will.

 

I still have the guts to call myself a guitar player.

 

The gist of this is that we are trying to compare apples to oranges, and peoples various attitudes towards which is somehow better, when they are just different.

 

 

Bill

That's just it, there's no way ot define "better". Different is just fine. :thu:
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Originally posted by Billster:

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

You know the line in Nashville Cats about "can play twice as better 'n I will"? Most any guy in a cover band can play twice as better 'n I will.

 

I still have the guts to call myself a guitar player.

 

The gist of this is that we are trying to compare apples to oranges, and peoples various attitudes towards which is somehow better, when they are just different.

 

 

Bill

That's just it, there's no way ot define "better". Different is just fine. :thu:
Well, the "Bills" -- both of whom I have come to admire through these forums -- beat me to what I was going to say. So, instead of another long, boring post by me, I'll just quote them instead.

 

(Damn! They're still better writers than me!) ;)

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Ok Musicalhair. Understood and we're ok.

 

I really think Bennett is a fine example of someone that nobody would ever question for being just a singer.

 

And my point isn't to degrade writers. I hold great songwriters in high regard. I guess it's easier to respect players and writers for what they do, and not see them as less than whole for what they don't, in a city where writers and players are often separate, and just as often the same people.

 

My point, as I believe is yours, Miro's, and Lee's is that writing and performing are two separate disciplines and it is useless to draw comparisons or turn your nose up at someone as being less of a musician for simply playing music rather than writing it as well.

 

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

...However, the real question is in the middle of the first post:

There seems to be a general attitude that players who do not write original material are somehow not complete in their motivations and have missed out on the creative part of their musical experience.
I think that's a valid question. The defensiveness shows in the next sentence:

What if any is the value in playing cover songs?
...
But that makes no sense. How is that defensive when Lee plays in cover bands?? Defensive, from his pov, would be asking a question like "What is the value of playing crappy originals when you can play popular covers extremely well?" That would be defensive.

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

The defensiveness shows in the next sentence:

What if any is the value in playing cover songs?
...
But that makes no sense. How is that defensive when Lee plays in cover bands?? Defensive, from his pov, would be asking a question like "What is the value of playing crappy originals when you can play popular covers extremely well?" That would be defensive.
Ok, I see your point. Maybe "defensive" wasn't the best word to use. The way I read that question it sounds like it is also making the statement: "Playing cover tunes is a trivial matter." It obviously doesn't hold any value, so "what if any" value does it hold? There's a certain connotation, no?

 

How's this? "In order to be a musician, is it necessary to be a composer or is it sufficient to be a performer?"

 

Or in other terms, "To be considered a guitar player, do you have to write songs, or do you just have to play guitar?"

 

Or maybe, "If you play guitar in a cover band you're a guitar player. Is songwriting a separate activity or should it also be considered a part of being a guitar player?"

 

In the last form the question could spark some debate, but it shouldn't take too long to figure out that a "guitar player" is someone who "plays guitar".

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I don't see that as confrontational, even if he wasn't a player in a cover band.

 

Some people don't see any value in playing cover tunes. He didn't assume others would find value in playing covers. I believe he would have been similarly lambasted had he simply said, "What is the value of playing cover tunes." Inevitably, someone would've accused him of leading the question that there must be value in playing cover tunes.

 

Word it how you like, in the end, it was a simple question asking if you find value in playing covers. Either you do or you don't. The question wasn't inflammatory. The only thing divisive was other people's pre-disposition to discount Lee's comments as self serving and rude.

 

You came in the room with your baggage and I came in with mine. We looked at the same words and came out with very different understanding of what Lee's intentions and question were.

 

So now you understand his real motives. So, have you run into this attitude? Do you agree/disagree with it? Do you find value in playing cover tunes?

 

Peace,

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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