Enthusiasm more important than skill

[The Geoff]

No it isn't.

 

Those of you who also frequent The Low Down Lowdown will know I have recently experienced an acrimonious parting from the Blues band in which I was playing bass (see 'Spitting Feathers' in the Lowdown).

 

This was part of my 'get a life' strategy having moved the Midlands from Scotland after my previous marriage broke up and I had to retire due to health problems.

 

So I'm looking for another project/band, and I see an ad in a local band website for a band still looking for personnel - undefined. ENTHUSIASM MORE IMPORTANT THAN SKILL.

 

I make contact and go along.

 

These are *really* nice guys. Friendly and helpful. 'Way full of enthusiasm. Everything looks good............until we start playing.

 

I played 20 years 60s to 70s and I've been rehearsing at a highish level for the last year with 2 pretty reasonable bands.

 

These guys, no matter how nice, were playing like 12 year olds (well, your average twelve year old).

 

The lead singer couldn't hold pitch. The guitarist (same guy) couldn't make chord changes fast enough. They have a list of 147(!) songs which include Hedrix and Clapto, Bon Jovi etc. A case of eyes bigger than talent.

 

I was embarrassed, as when I played & sang, the optimism of the guys for me to join them was overwhelming. I had to get out of it by telling them that what they are doing is far too close to my other project (which it is, actually).

 

I feel bad about this. I feel guilty because my basic feeling was that either : 'I was too good for them', or, 'they weren't up to my standard', and that makes me feel uncomfortable, even if it's true.

 

Am I wrong to feel like this? Am I vain? Or being realistic?

 

Maybe if they hadn't been such decent guys I wouldn't have cared so much.

 

Geoff

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

No, I don't think you were wrong to feel that way. Why should you join a band that you KNOW you're not going to be happy with? Playing in a band that you don't enjoy playing with is miserable. If you don't think it's a good fit, it doesn't really matter why you feel that way. You were nice to them and went out of your way not to hurt their feelings. If you had said "I'm not going to waste my time trying to teach you talentless cretins how to play your instruments!", then that would have been a different situation. You didn't do that. You bowed out gracefully. Now they are free to do their thing and you are free to do yours and you aren't wasting each other's time.

 

I think you did the right thing.

[Hardtail]

The ad did say "enthusiasm more important than skill" so it sounds like they held their end of the bargain.

 

Next time you see an ad like this, you should probably skip it.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Geoff Byrne:

I see an ad in a local band website for a band still looking for personnel - undefined. ENTHUSIASM MORE IMPORTANT THAN SKILL.

Well, you have to appreciate their honesty in fully disclosing the terms of the contract

 

Originally posted by Geoff Byrne:

Am I wrong to feel like this? Am I vain? Or being realistic?

Out of the three, you are being realistic and your getting out of it exhibited much diplomacy

 

If you would've told those guys they need lessons and need to practice, that would've been realistic, but not diplomatic and perhaps even vain.

 

It's funny, our pastor was talking about the "enthusiasm vs. natural giftings' last night in church in favor of the natural giftings superceding enthusiasm

[skipclone 1]

I can`t help wondering why you even answered their ad-from the way you describe your level of involvement, it should have been obvious this wasn`t going to be right for you. One can only conclude you kind of brought it on yourself to an extent.

[The Geoff]

Originally posted by skipclone 1:

I can`t help wondering why you even answered their ad-from the way you describe your level of involvement, it should have been obvious this wasn`t going to be right for you. One can only conclude you kind of brought it on yourself to an extent.

Yes, maybe you're right - I'll avoid these for now, but then again, I'm an optimist, and you never know what you'll find.........

 

 

G.

[Bbach1]

Originally posted by Geoff Byrne:

Originally posted by skipclone 1:

I can`t help wondering why you even answered their ad-from the way you describe your level of involvement, it should have been obvious this wasn`t going to be right for you. One can only conclude you kind of brought it on yourself to an extent.

Yes, maybe you're right - I'll avoid these for now, but then again, I'm an optimist, and you never know what you'll find.........

 

G.

I don't think a person can have too many good friends. You say these were great guys? Perhaps you could jam with them from time to time and help them out. They might be open to improving and you get to hang out with some great people.

[BluesWithoutBlame]

I recently had the exact same experience.

 

I didn't feel bad. My guys didn't even really realize that songs had intros, choruses, solos, verses, and endings.

 

They had "practiced" some AC/DC, they were playing power chord songs with open string chords...had no sense of timing.

 

Nothing against them, they didn't really to even know music as basic listeners.

 

The thing is, they KNOW it too. I'm not a guitar hero, but I have been playing for 30+ years. It gets pretty obvious. My guys seemed to kind of hope that I would join but knew the gulf was too huge. I mean what is the alternative? You play with people holding you back? For how long?

 

Look...it's like dating. You go on a blind date, you realize you are at different places and that this one isn't for you (she may think the same or not) you don't marry her just because she liked you right? You also don't date her for months knowing she isn't for you right?

 

I feel like I, at 49, have limited time, and I want to play with people at my level or preferably a little better!

 

It kind of burns me alittle too...my guys have probably been playing for a year or so, used to play when they were 16 a LITTLE and picked it up again at 40. They aren't listenable at this stage. The thing is...wouldn't it be a bummer if two guys COULD just pick up a guitar and after a year or so be as good and knowledeable and skilled as a guy that has been actively practicing, and playing for 30 years? How come we are supposed to feel bad for getting good?

 

I can jam with anyone at the level where they can play sort of what they think needs playing, and can listen (I do listen too) and has a little timing. I'm no snob, but if I am in a band, working my butt off...I need to be with people in the same ballpark.

 

The REAL tipoff with my guys was pretty funny...after about 2 hours of playing (with breaks in between, not even solid) the least experienced stops playing more and more often and is shaking his hand/wrist to loosen it up. Started complaining about how sore and tired his wrist was. About 5 minutes later the more experienced one is doing it too. Just stop in the middle of the song and shake wrists...

 

After that they pretty much were "worn out" and looked at me with amazement and asked "um...how long could you keep playing now? Aren't your wrists sore?" to which I honestly replied "I could play for another 4-6 hours or more if we were playing. Used to play all night jamming with bands when I was learning" Theie mouths dropped to the floor.

 

This tells me they aren't practicing enough by far. Even remembering when I was new to guitar, and my buddies, all 16 year olds..never saw someone get fatigue after only a few hours (unless it was a shuffle in F...I can hardly last a song playing it honestly...so I cheat)

 

Anyway, some beginners are good...naturals, or maybe just practice lots. My guys were not either of those. I don't think they will go very far. It isn't that there is so much to learn (though of course there is!) but also they weren't even aware of what they didn't know.

[BluesWithoutBlame]

What I meant about dating though..forgot to mention. You don't (if you are honest) string along someone you know won't work out for you.

 

That's the point. It's nobody's fault, and it isn't a put-down for them to say "I am playing at a different place than you guys. I'm looking for something else right now".

 

Just like on a date. We do sometimes do the "I'll call you" thing, but even better if you were just honest, we're all looking for different things right?

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by BluesWithoutBlame:

After that they pretty much were "worn out" and looked at me with amazement and asked "um...how long could you keep playing now? Aren't your wrists sore?" to which I honestly replied "I could play for another 4-6 hours or more if we were playing. Used to play all night jamming with bands when I was learning" Theie mouths dropped to the floor.

oh boy

[Caevan O’Shite]

Naaa, if you don't enjoy playing with them, that's all that matters, aside from just being decent and friendly about it as you were.

 

I second the idea that if possible, you mantain casual friendship and help 'em along where you can, if you can. Although you aren't obligated to save the world- bad would-be musicians included- it's your call how much effort to put into that, if any at all.

 

As for the guys that BW/OB describes as having a playing-stamina issue, it sounds like bad technique and posture relative to the instrument might have had a lot to do with it; if you play a lot of barre-chords with a death-grip on the neck and at an awkward angle to boot, that is exactly what will happen- all the sore-wrist rubbing and hand-shaking and all...

[musicalhair]

Originally posted by KPB:

The ad did say "enthusiasm more important than skill" so it sounds like they held their end of the bargain.

 

Next time you see an ad like this, you should probably skip it.

That is really funny, thanks for my first laugh of the day.

 

I often make the opposite mistake in the same situation, and while I will "rationalize" it here for everyone to see I know it has been a mistake way too often.

 

I helped a guy put together a band once. I didn't realize I was doing this until we were way too deep into it. I had a couple of bands going at one time, and through a friend I knew this guitarist from his band. There were becoming decent draws and doing 98% original music they were together for a few years and did just about everything "right" if you can every do anything right playing originals in New Jersey. If they made a mistake I'd say it was wait to long to start playing in NYC, but when they did they always brought enough people to keep the club owner happy. Their Tape (or was it disk?) kicked ass and sounded really good. Everyone thought they were going to take a next step-- what ever that is. So that should give you a feel for what "level" I'm talking about interms of draw and clubs and such, not really very big at all but local. They were starting to branch out into playing more regional shows and getting on various cable access shows and any radio program that would have them.

 

Anyway, the "lead" guitarist sees me as the bassist for a couple of bands and at an acoustic open mic night that their band is hosting I play my college classical set. After the night is over and I thank everyone for inviting me the guitarist and I start talking. I had been an aquaintance of his for a while now but here we are speaking first. It turns out this is the guy a mutual teacher of ours wanted to get together some time ago. He had also studied in college, he was a composition major drop out from suny-- I just had taken a lot of classes but got no music degree or minor much to everlasting torment. He wrote a lot of music it turns out and was jamming and working it out with another guitarist. He wanted an third guitarist that doubled on bass for this. It sounded good.

 

We start jamming and this other guitarist that I had never met was really good. The two of them were --- no exageration--- great guitarists and their parts were so interwoven yet they had a lot of freedom. The changes were really cool, really great music to play. On bass I played a lot of great lines that were very easy to come up with because the music was so well done that ... well it was really intersting and fun prog rock. Jazzy and well crafted without the pretense of prog rock.

 

We start trying out drummers, the second guitarist ends up in a really bad auto accident. Now mind you I plan stuff out in advance. I'm angling for endorsements off this thinking we're the next big virtuoso act that the guitar mags will love, like dream theater but where chicks might by the records too, and cooler ( ).

 

Then he leaves his first band-- my freinds band. I'm devestated because I feel like I facilitated the departure. Each time I saw any of those guys I apologized profusely because I felt really bad about it. I kept telling him not to leave. It turns out that no one blamed me but blamed the friction betweent the two guitarists in that band-- not the car accident guy.

 

Anyway, we now need to replace this guitarist, get a drummer and find a singer. He wants a keyboardist too. He alsow wants a second singer because he's not so confident with his singing "yet". We find drummer, another comp major dropout. Very cool guy. Not a great drummer but understood the music and could add from that angle. really great guy. After rehearsal the three of us would stand inthe parking lot talking philosophy-- passionately!-- for hours. My wife hated it because I said I'd be in at 11 and it was like 1 or 2. Anyway for the rest I take out the ad, I set up the auditions and everything. We checkout these people. We can't agree on anyone.

 

My criteria: cool to hang with (we had to "virtuosos" already, did we need more?), multi instrumental, ready to gig, willing to go along with what we already had started so that we could gig faster and then add their "uniquness to the collective", stage presense because we had NONE being the ultimate music geeks, can jam or at least hold down the fort while we jam off into freak-land.

 

His criteria: another vituoso-- each guy-- great voice, can jam.

 

Drummer's criteria: "what time are we playing?", and can jam.

 

Now we tryout to singers: a rather hot chick wearign more makeup than Este Lauder's stable of caged rabbits and mice, and an Irish Bruce Springstein. I want to add them. We tryout a rather good guy keyboard player that sang a Sara Mac song IN HER RANGE while playing the keys. He also played guitar, not so much to brag about there but decent "mod" rock. He can think and understand complicated stuff and can sing. During a blues jam he played the entire tune in the wrong key and when making eye contact to correct it he make like "adement" eye contact like he was right. Man that sucked. We try out a guitarist. he wants to jam, but in 11. I hate odd time because I've never seen a room full of people "jamming" in odd times that weren't counting and all the parts sounded like metronomes and the murmer beneath from "1-2-3-4-5-6-7" over and over didn't make for "music" as I think of it and certainly not jamming. This was one such example. There was no groove and no feel, but everyone except me patted each other on the back when it was all done. He didn't jam at all I think, he whipped out complicated parts over and over and we played to them but when faced with a straight blues jam or simple jam he was stumped. He could play to our stuff though it seemed. He was a baritone almost a bass singing.

 

Mike the guitarist I had started this journey with had made up his mind. I wanted to try out more people but he had really settled and there was no more discussing it. I couldn't argue with the skill level or the voices but I felt the jamming had being tossed out the window.

 

The next thing tossed out the window was the set we had worked out. Each of these two guys brought in new stuff and we spent night after night after night writting parts and working out new material. The "11/8" guy pulls the old trick of pretending to come up with a new thing on the spot as we all learn it and write it down it is clear that he wrote this all a long time ago. The key board player is coming up with rather typical "mod rock" and since the drummer started only showing up when we acutally were renting space and not writing, the two new guys start talking about replacing him. I point out that were ready to play shows until our set got abandonded for new material and I can see why I feels not needed here on such nights. Then the last straw, the keyboard player wants me to play some Polyrythmic thumping of one note on the bass under some song he wrote. I said you can do that with your left hand can't you? He's like I think it would be cool if you do it. I'm like I think it would be cool if I do what I want to do. Don't write parts for me, unless there is an envelop with cash that comes along with it.

 

I call up the guitarist and say "I can't do this. We were real close to playing shows and had great material and now were writing stuff that no audience will get and it will never be written and at this rate you'll never play a show, and you're going to replace a drummer which are immpossible to find. These guys don't want to play shows they want to sit around and noodle all night.

 

They never played a show and that was the last I heard of any of them.

 

I've always done better when talent was "appropriate" and the goal of playing shows and work on stuff to get better and move foward was there. I've had nothing but stalling and ego trips with "geniuses" and super-talents. That "band" experience breifly called "Horse Lover Phat" and "Nuns with Hammers", is typical of other such failed projects.

 

Give me one or two guys that can play and fill the band with people that can do what their told and play shows.

 

Another aspect of this is that when I was a kid, older guys took me and showed be how to play while I was in their band. I couldn't play but they worked with me and showed me, I learned by jamming with better musicians. If I don't extend the same to others then I'm a jerk, and I'm not like that. My interest is not where someone is but where they will be. I'd be a hypocrit and disrespecting the process that got me anywhere on the instruments. So, I enjoy working with people I can help because "Victor and the Wet Ones" did the same for me. What often happens is lack of skill isn't "owned" by people and they get all defensive and their limits become the bands limits and not things to work past. Ego and limits combine to hold back people and I ditch those projects too.

 

So, if people play shows and are willing to learn and be loyal to each other then I'm there. Drop those balls once and I start getting suspicious and soon enough I sabotage myself in these bands if it goes too far. I always get something like this "are you sure you want to do this?!?!" because I'm often playing jazz and stuff while I audtion and my own musical goals might not be theirs. AS I get older my fuse gets shorter.

 

Anyway, you did the right thing because if you weren't feeling it then you'd hate it even if you liked the "hang" after it.

 

 

Anyway that's my long story and I'm sticking to it.

 

 

** pointless digression, but if anyone wants to read the story of that set continues here:

 

Man, I was freaked out. All these full rock bands showed up and basically played their rock sets but with some acoustic element added. I showed up with my classical and nothing else (well, "Flamenco" guitar really, with such high action it scares people away). I play some classical stuff and once we get past the feed back problems I realize the place is dead silent. I'm like mildly freaking out but playing my stuff as best I can remember it. I'm "cool" because I start off with a joke and it went over well. My opening joke was like this "Let's hear it for Mood 13 ... I want to thank the guys for inviting me, I'm ... and I'll be your intermission tonight (in case you might miss it, that is the "joke"), stick around because Truthcircle is up next.

 

At the end of my set the place like lit up they were so loud in cheering. It was pretty cool. A club like that had never had classical music and that may have beent the only classical performance many of them had ever heard. At the end I say "Thanks, my name is ... and I'm the bass player for the band "Mudd", tell your grand kids to come check us out because that will be when we start playing shows." We never did play any shows. I was helping out my cousin as I had just moved back to the area and he needed a bassist and his band needed a kick in the ass. They got freaked when I was playing with a band in NYC called "As If" and felt like was not being loyal and I got kicked out about a month after that classical thing I did.

[Bluesape]

You were right to exit gracefully and not slam the door behind you. As bad as these guys are, their enthusiasm may score them some gigs, and gigs are where people find out quick that they gotta get good real fast or get out. If you're not embarassed to play with them, you may see them lock in after a few gigs, but I know that is tiresome for a seasoned player, but I'd rather play with even a marginal gigging band than sit at home. Besides, you'll shine on stage with them.

 

I'm sure a lot of us have been advised by well-meaning spectators to ditch the weak links in our bands, but these weak links are people we get involved with and form friendships with. The only people I won't tolerate anymore are those with drug problems.

 

There is a local band here that has hired me to sub on one occasion. They are great guys, have been playing for decades, but still lack that telepathic knack of predicting each others' next move, so improvisational stuff just doesn't come off well. I have hired the drummer for a couple of gigs, and have played with him a lot at jams, and his blues feel went from non-existant to quite good. I now have no worries about using him when I have an opening due to my drummer having a conflict, and my first instinct was to give up on him and his band. I'm glad I hung in with them.

[skipclone 1]

Musicalhair-

That `not being loyal` comment-I totally disagree with that attitude, but it probably belongs on a separate thread.

[Guitar55]

Our band just replaced our drummer. While we were in the midst of the search we all became very frustrated after audtioning guys who could "talk the talk" ont he phone but could not deliver when it came time to play (although they had no idea how bad they were). It got to the point where I had to implenment a very strict screening process on the phones. Basically, I would try to scare these guys OUT of auditioning. I would tell them how critical we were about drummer, how their timing had to be impeccable and we needed them to walk in and take charge of the tempos and really lead the band. A few them would back out right there saying that maybe they wouldn't be the right fit. The guy we ended up picking walked in, called out the first song we told him to learn, counted it off, hit a nice hard snare crack on four and...I knew he was our man.

[Dr. Ellwood]

You are of coarse right! I bet you stayed longer than I would have! I have packed up and left after two songs at tryouts and auditions. Instrumental talent is something that if its not too bad or just rusty because some guys have laid off too long is one thing but... singing is either there or its not there. Vocals will make me bolt for the door faster than anything else! Ya did good getting out fast.

[Hardtail]

Originally posted by musicalhair:

Originally posted by KPB:

The ad did say "enthusiasm more important than skill" so it sounds like they held their end of the bargain.

 

Next time you see an ad like this, you should probably skip it.

That is really funny, thanks for my first laugh of the day.

 

Always good for a laugh.

 

I was just pointing out the obvious. If they're not stressing "skill", they're probably not very skillful.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Well, if you like the band personally and they actually wanted you to stay, what about staying on and trying to mould them into something a bit more reasonable?

 

If their set list is 170 songs long, then they seem to have rather broad tastes. You could take them anywhere from there.

 

I know, it's a pretty machiavellian stunt to pull, but if they want you to stay and you're the only one that knows what he's doing, it's natural that you'd have a pretty big say in the band's ultimate direction anyway.

 

I'm not suggesting that you crack the whip or anything, but you'd have a whole band to arrange for. That's a lot of fun, actually, working out what each player's strengths and weaknesses are and coming up with an arrangement that suits everybody. You could benefit from their enthusiasm and they could benefit from your experience and ears.

 

It would be a learning experience for the lot of you.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Not a bad idea Vince BUT!! Geoff.. do you really have the TIME to take on something like that or do you want to gig?

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Not a bad idea Vince BUT!! Geoff.. do you really have the TIME to take on something like that or do you want to gig?

**tsk** Yes, there IS that aspect... you're right, of course.

[The Geoff]

Originally posted by Vince C.:

Well, if you like the band personally and they actually wanted you to stay, what about staying on and trying to mould them into something a bit more reasonable?

 

You could benefit from their enthusiasm and they could benefit from your experience and ears.

 

It would be a learning experience for the lot of you.

That's what I was supposed to be contributing to the Blues band, and the act of applying it got me chucked out.

 

I'd rather play the gig, as Ellwood says. I did it for 20 years, I'm probably better now than I was then, and I certainly have better gear, plus I sing more and can play bass.

 

I just want to go out and play and make a bit of pocket money. I guess a lot of you would like to do the same.

 

Geoff

[Pappy P]

KPB:

 

Semper Fi.

 

I always wanted to be a Marine, just couldn't cut it physical wise.

 

So ethusiasm may fall short sometimes, but everything else falls apart without it.

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by BluesWithoutBlame:

[...] I feel like I, at 49, have limited time [...]

That's the kicker, really. As we age, do we really want to spend the rest of our lives in startups that never see a stage or audience? My favorite ad is always "band looking for 2nd guitar, bass, keys, drums, and singer!" Yeah, that's going somewhere fast. (Sometimes they think they're sneaky by posting 5 separate ads ... that all look alike except they replace "drummer" with "bassist", etc.) Anyway, Geoff (secret LD handshake ) may have had different circumstances, but he knew those guys were going nowhere. Perhaps if they used some of their enthusiasm to get some private lessons and dedicate an hour or two a day to practice on their own, then maybe when they got together 1-2x a week they'd start to see some improvement. Since he left on good terms, maybe if they actually do get better in 6 months they can hook up again.

 

Now, if you're already in a working band (or two), and your "fun" band, and you still have time to kill, sure, you can use that time to hang with the guys and help them improve. If you're comfortable in the teacher role and they're receptive students it can be very rewarding. But you won't be able to enjoy it if it's your only band, or if spending time with them means you won't have time to be in a working band.

 

After all, with 147 tunes, if you spend one week on each song -- have the guys practice on their own during the week and then break the song down for 3-5 hours at rehearsal -- that's about 2.8 years of your life just to learn the play list.

[The Geoff]

Word.

 

G.

[picker]

Sucks when someone pulls the band right out from under your feet, don't it? Happened to me once or twice, never did learn to like it.

[The Geoff]

I was hell to live with for maybe two weeks.

 

Sorry Phillipa! (she'll say I'm still hell to live with).

 

G.

[Hardtail]

Originally posted by Count Pappula:

KPB:

Semper Fi.

 

I always wanted to be a Marine, just couldn't cut it physical wise.

Ah, you didn't have to be a world class athlete. You just had to have lots of "enthusiasm".

[Dr. Ellwood]

QUOTE by MUSICIALHAIR..."I'm like I think it would be cool if I do what I want to do. Don't write parts for me, unless there is an envelop with cash that comes along with it."

 

 

HAY! Something about that statement sounds like ELLWOOD!!

[Dr. Ellwood]

GEOFF! ok now Im getting mixed up here? was this blues band the one you where JUST with or is this someother band before? This is NOT the band of which you sent me the set list is it??

[The Geoff]

Yup, Elwood, I'm afraid it is (was).

 

G.