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History of the double-cut symmetrical solid body electric?


Virtual Jim

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I didn't want to highjack the LP Vs. PRS thread. Besides, that thread only inspired this one; it's different.

 

I was wondering if anyone knew what company came out with a double cut, symmetrical solid body electric guitar first. Obviously the Strat was first with the double cut solidbody, but that's a radically different shape than what I'm thinking of.

 

Although I have immense respect for Gibson in other areas (I would never buy a knock off LP, SG, etc. without the Gibson, Epiphone, or Orville name), but the more I think about it and look into it, it looks like Gibson was kind of late getting into that game. I could be totally wrong, though.

 

Any one know?

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PRS Guitars has only been around a little over 20 years.

 

The SG isn't entirely symmetrical. And neither is the Les Paul double cut. I've never really thought about this before.

 

I can't think of a completely symmetrical solid body guitar except the ES-335S. And Gibson sold those before PRS started up in business.

 

There may be some other relatively obscure (compared to Gibson, Fender, et al) builder that made/makes them and made them first. But I can't think of one. I'm not saying there aren't any, just none come to mind.

Born on the Bayou

 

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LP - I know the SG aint xactly symmetrical, but what about the LP double cut? You said it wasnt and Im not quite sure whether it is or not. Is it a subtle difference like on the SG? I guess i could just look it up online, but im lazy at 11 at night.
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Originally posted by LPCustom:

The SG isn't entirely symmetrical. And neither is the Les Paul double cut. I've never really thought about this before.

The original Melody Makers were as close as you could get. Not the SG style Melody Makers...these:

 

http://www.halkans.com/images/524gibson.jpg

 

I think that's what Bluesape was mentioning.

"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Originally posted by revorhythm:

LP - I know the SG aint xactly symmetrical, but what about the LP double cut? You said it wasnt and Im not quite sure whether it is or not. Is it a subtle difference like on the SG? I guess i could just look it up online, but im lazy at 11 at night.

Yeah, both of them have slight variations in the size of the "horns". The Gibson ES-335S is a solid body, mahogany version of the ES-335T/TD. They don't make them anymore. But the body is entirely symmetrical in shape just like the ES-335TD.

 

The ES-335S was made from 1980 to 1983.

 

@Tedster, I've never seen a Les Paul Melody Maker double cut before. I didn't even know they made them. What years did they make them? Do they still make them?

Born on the Bayou

 

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C'mon guys...

 

The SG is symmetrical. Maybe not to absolute, exact measurement, but we're not engineers, we're musicians. If you want to see an assymetrical SG, look at ESP's design adjustments, implemented to avoid prosecution for trademark infringement by Gibson.

 

But the Les Paul Junior acquired a near symmetrical, double cut body in 1958 and the Les Paul Special assumed this body shape in 1959.

 

1958 LP Jr.'s

 

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/5858jr.jpg

 

I'm not familiar with the history of Gretsch and others who produced various symmetrical or near-symmetrical double cutaways, so there may have been others that preceeded these Gibsons.

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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Melodymakers were available with 2 pickups. I know 2 people who have owned them. In the late 60s or early 70s the guitarist for Mandrill used one on a couple of the TV spots I saw them on back then.
Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!
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Originally posted by LPCustom:

Actually, Neil, I am an engineer...

(BSEE/CS, Ga Tech, Class of 1980) :D

LP, ya theres alot of us on here I think... do you EE's have a yearly certification like ME's do the Professional Engineers certification" I just recertified mine for the 29th time. I bet you have that too to use your stamp on designs or circuts dont you?
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Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by LPCustom:

Actually, Neil, I am an engineer...

(BSEE/CS, Ga Tech, Class of 1980) :D

LP, ya theres alot of us on here I think... do you EE's have a yearly certification like ME's do the Professional Engineers certification" I just recertified mine for the 29th time. I bet you have that too to use your stamp on designs or circuts dont you?
Yeah, EEs have to have a cert, too. But I don't because I went the computer science route and got into programming after school. I don't design/build electronic stuff. Not since my second year out of school. (which was 23 years ago)

 

I could try to get a cert and start doing that again but I've forgotten a great deal of what I learned and probably couldn't even pass the exam. :rolleyes:

Born on the Bayou

 

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You are not posting to a design or manufacturing engineering forum. You're posting to a music site. Your engineering background isn't pertinent to a lay answer of what constitutes symmetry on such a gross scale. If you want to nitpick, even acoustic guitars aren't symmetrical because practical intonation forces an angle on the bridge saddle.

 

Quibbling whether the LP jr, LP jr special or SG are symmetrical is kinda like arguing the same about your average human being. A quick reflection of either side of your face reveals how different each side is from one another, but most of us have our eyes, ears, both sides of our noses, mouths and other identifying regions at essentially the same areas on either side of our faces. I doubt any lay person would say anything other than that most human features are symmetrical from side to side.

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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Yeah, if there is a difference in the horns on my 2 pickup 1960 Melody Maker, I can't see it.

 

Let's not forget the '60s Gretsches, or the SG 200 and 250.

 

The first double cut in a Les Paul style that I remember seeing was in the 70s, and was a Yamaha. Pretty classy looking axe, designed to compete with the LP.

 

Bill

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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Originally posted by LPCustom:

Sorry to bother you, Neil.

Sorry if I sound harsh.

 

Virtual Jim will have to say if this is true or not, but I got the feeling he wasn't measuring actual dimensions to determine what constituted symmetry for the purpose of the original question.

 

Sometimes interesting questions die quick death here because people get bogged down in details that really don't matter.

 

I was hoping someone with a lot more knowledge than me would chime in about Gretsch, Danelectro and others who make (made) symmetrical double cut instruments. I know little about Gretsch.

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Originally posted by LPCustom:

Sorry to bother you, Neil.

Sorry if I sound harsh.

 

Virtual Jim will have to say if this is true or not, but I got the feeling he wasn't measuring actual dimensions to determine what constituted symmetry for the purpose of the original question.

 

Sometimes interesting questions die quick death here because people get bogged down in details that really don't matter.

 

I was hoping someone with a lot more knowledge than me would chime in about Gretsch, Danelectro and others who make (made) symmetrical double cut instruments. I know little about Gretsch.

This is absolutely correct. I didn't know the SG was assymmetrical (aside from the pickguard and pots)

 

The Danelectro was precisely the guitar I was thinking of. I didn't think of Gretsch until this thread, but Malcolm Young plays a double cut one, no? And no, I was not referring to PRS. Coronet was another of the contenders since the first time they came out, Epi was an independent company (I think).

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Originally posted by Virtual Jim:

[QB] I didn't want to highjack the LP Vs. PRS thread.

 

 

Actually, Jim - I want to thank you for helping us get away from that nonsensical thread - may it fall off the screen today!

 

What I can't understand is how people posting here are able to get their hackles up over responses to an innocent and non-confrontational question about symmerty, and whether or not micrometers need to be used to determine said symmetry, which should be in the eye of the beholder, and certainly not worth flared tempers.

 

Puh-lease!!

Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!
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Thanks for the info, LPCustom. I'm not sure, from what I've read, whether they began making double cut instruments first, but it appears they were at least at the same time as Gibson's DC LP Junior and Junior Specials.

 

I always thought the Danny double cuts were fugly (other than the Longhorn), but then again I wasn't particularly fond of the single cut Dannies, either. I just like the sound of those old "Lipstick" p'ups. :thu:

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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I bought an amp in case model, just to get that sound. I prefer almost any of the other models, but I did not biuy them when they were cheap enough. There was a really, really ugly one that they sold through auto parts stores.. it is so hideous that it is cool. I'd like one of those, or one with the coke bottle headstock, or a longhorn. (yeah, I'm a little warped....)

 

Bill

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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Originally posted by LPCustom:

There is also a historical page for Gretsch guitars. But the site is quite buggy.

 

http://www.gretschpages.com/

 

I've only seen one model of Gretsch solid body guitar that was a double cut and that's the Double Roc Jet. I used to have one of those.

 

Hey, Ellwood, does your Country Gentleman have the painted on F-Holes?

don;t forget the Gretsch/Burns Corvette... which has a slightly extended horn on the top, but is still basically a double cutaway solid body.

 

Bill

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

Originally posted by LPCustom:

There is also a historical page for Gretsch guitars. But the site is quite buggy.

 

http://www.gretschpages.com/

 

I've only seen one model of Gretsch solid body guitar that was a double cut and that's the Double Roc Jet. I used to have one of those.

 

Hey, Ellwood, does your Country Gentleman have the painted on F-Holes?

don;t forget the Gretsch/Burns Corvette... which has a slightly extended horn on the top, but is still basically a double cutaway solid body.

 

Bill

Yep, I keep forgetting about that one. I've never actually seen one. I've seen them in magazines and catalogs but never a "real" one.

Born on the Bayou

 

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" I've seen them in magazines and catalogs but never a "real" one."

 

I had one in about '68, I was a drummer. My guitarist broke it on stage. Some kinda Who envy.

 

Bill

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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