Amp modellers

[MadStrum]

Do you guys think that amp modellers will ever sound as good as the real thing? The GT2 sounds quite good to me when I plug it into the PA of my local jamming studio, but then I've never played the actual amps that the device is modelling - Marshall tube, Tweed, Mesa boogie..

 

Pier.

[Prague]

You will always get people saying Yes and No. If you like them, they sound good.

[Dr. Ellwood]

They don't in general sound the same side by side comparison.

[picker]

I have no idea how long it will take, but I think they might get better eventually. They have improved since they first came out.

[Museeip]

As far as the Line6 stuff goes, they have come a LONG way in sound quality. When I think about technology in the future it seems better to think about what is not possible, as opposed to what is available now. The advantage now is a cost savings. You get a ton of amps, cabs, and effects that most of us could never afford if you bought the real deal. A model of a JTM45 say will not sound as good as the real thing, but considering how close some of them come now, I think it is very possible that 10-12 years into the future they could sound the same(of course that means that all jtm45's sound the same, which we know they don't).

[Gruupi]

I think they are as good a sound now as regular amps. They may not nail every single amp and speaker combination and some of the samples have some built in trouble spots. But you can get several really good patches of most of the popular sounds out there. It does take alot of tweaking and experimenting.

 

You won't get the sound say of you favorite Fender or Marshall that you spent years searching for to get the perfect one. You will get something to get better than if you just picked a run of the mill amp you could buy with out hearing it first.

 

What is so great about say the latest Line 6 stuff, is that you can get so many usable inspiring tones in a unit that fits in a suitcase. Just about any effect you would want is included also. The kicker is that you can get these sounds AT ANY VOLUME. You can play with headphones in your apartment and they sound downright awesome. You can play live at any level depending how you amplify the modeler.

 

You won't get good results playing it through a traditional guitar amp, a guitar amp and the speakers color the sound and you will lose the sound of your patches. You will get better results through a Keyboard amp or PA type setup that is more accurate sound reinforement.

 

I think over the coming years all but the purists and people like Eric Johnson types will switch to modeling. It is just to easy compared to trying to buy 2 or more different amps and carry or try to travel with them. Its not just about the cost of buying the amps, its the practicality.

 

I have a Fender Blues DeVille which I love and it gets a great clean sound. I can't "match" it in the Line 6 but I can get several clean sounds that are as good. If you have one or several really special amps and you are content to lug them around, and are ok with having to play at ear splitting volume to get your tone, then you will resist modeling amps. But if you look at it objectively, you could be satisfied with all they have to offer. Most of your tone is in your fingers and guitar anyway. The amp is only part of the equation. The question isn't if it sounds exactly like the amps that modelers try to copy, its a matter if does it sound good.

 

Up until a couple of months ago before I got my Line 6 POD Xt Live, I wasn't playing my electric much. I live in an apartment so daily playing on my amp was out of the question. I used to rent a studio but that became unpractical when I moved 35 minutes away form the space. I had the older model POD 2.0 and it was ok, but it wasn't inspiring. Now with the nwer upgraded model, the patches are better sounding and there are some extra tweakable parameters that make dialing in a good sound much better. I am now back into playing electric everyday and am stoked to play through the sounds I can get.

 

It took a lot of work and a little bit of getting used to. But I am completly sold on the technology. It is only going to get better and better as time goes by. I havent tried the Variax and I hear reviews are mixed, but hopefully that end of things will get better too.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Good posts you guys! Ok for the heck of it lets compare a couple of amps to modeling amps. Lets do a A/B thing. I have for the modeling amp the Line6 Flextone 2..not by any means the latest in the Line6 technology but we will use it in this dialogue. Ok I have as my main amp a Marshall 50 watt head the DSL50 with the 1960A bottom. The other amp I have is a 1967 original blackface Fender SuperReverb and some others but thats enough for the sample here. First the Marshall to the Flextone Marshall model, side by side the only difference being the Flextone is a 2X12 combo and the Marshall is a 4X12 closed back bottom.. but anyway lets go.. The Flextone on classic Brit or Plexi Marshall sample sounds SORTA like the Marshall at LOW volumes but as you go up to club volume or on stage performing volume it starts to loose the charasterics the higher you go on the Flextone the more it gets nasty sounding and NEVER achieves the Brown Tone. OK next the Blackface Fender Felxtone model.. this model is much closer to the Fender original blackface in fact it is almost close enough EXCEPT the one factor that everybody wants is the blackface REVERB.. the reverb provided on the Flextone just doesnt make it!! not with the sweet sweet original Fender reverb tank doing its thing.. SO... there you go..its a little comparison but its at least someting to chew on hope it helped a little .. before I close I gotta say though.. the Flextone is a great combo amp and great fun to use..its just NOT a stadium class amp.

[caprae]

How about the VOX AD15VT, 30, 50 and now 100 line of amps. Are they any closer to the originals? These have a tube in them that is split with one side for the preamp and the other for the amp (if I remember the explanation correctly).

[MadStrum]

I had a VOX AD30VT once, the overdriven sounds were rather good, but something about it didn't give me a good vibe. Maybe it was the cleans, they were a bit thin, and I tend to play a lot of cleans.

 

Pier.

[caprae]

Madstrum: I also have the AD30VT, but don't have enough experience with other amps to know if this is good at modeling them or not. I finally found a post that listed the amps it was supposed to be modeling.

I know you have to play with it a bit to get good solid clean sounds out of it (unless you use the presets). I have set up one I really like on one of the channels so my kids can crank the overdrive to their heart's delight, and I can always go back to my channel.

[Jabberwocky]

Like Ellwood, I have the Line6 Flextone 2, which I use live for smaller gigs but mostly for recording lots of variations on song 'sketches' using the very useful line out direct into PC/Cubase.

In my opinion the sounds are pretty close to original on real deal amps that I have used, but many lack the indefinable edge that the real McCoy gives the sound.

In theory, it should work because its all about waveform modelling, but can you really model every nuance of resonance? or the way a particular type of speaker combined with a particular type of cabinet ply sounds? or as Ellwood points out, a particular reverb?

 

To the discerning ear modelling is good and can only get better. To the musician, its got to be a matter of taste, and a question of how many sounds you really need.

 

Personally, as long as I get the glassy Fender chime out of my Strat, and the bad old fat tones from my Gordon Smith Galaxy and my LP,I am happy.

On the Flextone, I only ever use the Tweed Blues amp model. I have tried em all and found that only that one gives the sound I need. Small tweed is great for some blues tunes....kinda gives a VOX AC15 sound.

 

The upshoot is that for me personally, I do not need 50 different sounds. Others may, and modelling is obviously the way to go as it will save an awful lot of bucks.

 

Thats my ten dollars worth.

[BluesWithoutBlame]

I'm definitely not an amp-snob, but I notice a couple of things for me anyway.

 

My first amp was a tube amp (Ampeg VT-22 4x10 combo, 100w tube amp) and I loved my sound.

Later on in life (when I was mid-20's) I bought a solid state Roland Cube 60 (like in the 80's) and used that. I wasn't really aware enough about tone, I used tone controls, and played with tone by playing on different parts of the string, but it seemed "okay"

 

I stopped playing for a few years.

 

When I reentered the music world, things had changed. I bought a couple of amp modellers, also ME pedals. I liked them a lot...like a kid with a shiny new toy. Made a lot of music with them and was amazed at all the sounds in there.

 

But then I started playing in a band again. I bought a tube amp. I felt like I had come home. There just was that little "extra" that I really can't pinpoint (I "know" about sag, tube compression, the technical things that are said to be happening. I am an electronics technician and used to have a running argument with another non-musician, but good tecnician, who always claimed "look, if you can make a sound with tubes, you can recreate it with transistors, or processors") what it is. It is more organic, (even thought tubes are no more "natural" than gas pumps, and amplification is in the end..no matter what, artiface...it isn't a real "guitar"..) it is more natural to me, it just SOUNDS better.

 

The clue for me is I always get bored with my modelling toys, eventually. When I have spent a good deal of time playing through a "real" amp, I am always less satisfied with the modellers. But, I still use them when recording at home (save the neighbors), I can still get excited playing through them...and in some cases I get sounds I wish I could get in my tube amp that I haven't yet gotten. But that is in headphones. Put them on the monitors and it isn't as sweet usually.

 

There is something also about tubes, the simplicity. Even on the organic part, tubes do actually react to the surroundings (EMF, solar rays, capacitance around you, etc.).

 

To me, tubes are like having sex with a real woman, with sweat, smells, heat, maybe someone farts underway :-), but it is the real deal.

 

Modelling is like...simulated sex in 3D, georgeous woman, no smells, no farts, no heat..a little too perfect.

 

Not that I have any sex-modellers....

[Guitarzan]

i am quite happy with my Yamaha DG100. and the main reason is the sucker actually has a power section that doesn't suck. two celestion V30's don't hurt.

and it can smack the shit out of you.

it can get great od tones just by pushing the clean channel to high volumes. does it sound like a marshalfenderboogie? it is hard to compare.

next to a 50 watt jcm800 combo it was different. but that combo had greenbacks.

if my buddy stops forcing me to play through his GT6 every time we record i may get to post some actual tones sometime.

there is a certain x factor to tubes. it is there and hard to describe.

i would say i have gotten real crunchy sweet tones at a studio when plugged into a marshall 4x12 cab.

before anyone gets all horney for the latest modelling gear i suggest they check out a DG series yamaha if they can find a used one.

[Guitar55]

I, too, have a Flextone II. I tried using it live for a while, but the problem was not being able to tweak the sounds easily on stage.

 

Also, the Line 6 has this strange quality when trying to emulate 4x12 cabs and provide a "physical" experience. Somehow the sound gets "lost" and even when you turn them up, they are very difficult to hear clearly on stage.

 

On the other hand, I think they are great for home recording and I'm looking to replace the Flextone with a POD XT LIVE.

 

I think what will happen is that digital modelling technology will prove its credibility by sounding like other amps. Once they are accepted in the marketplace they will concentrate on just sounding good and not necessarily trying to BE older tube amps.

[J. Robert Rennix]

The thing with amp modeling is that it's all about context. If you are just going to A/B the amps in a room, a modeling amp will never sound exactly like the amps it is modeling. The physics of the speakers and cabs alone make it impossible. How could something perfectly recreate the sounds of an open back Fender or Vox combo and a sealed cab Mesa or Marshall stack? However, in the context of a recording or even a large, "stadium" gig an amp modeller might be indistinguishable from the real thing.

[LPCustom]

bump

[Museeip]

In deffence of "the advancement of technology" I have to say I noticed a difference after upgrading my PodXT with the latest patch. I agree that modeling "toys" can get to be too much stuff. I've found I come back to one or two amps models and just stick with those.

[Prague]

Originally posted by jrob:

How could something perfectly recreate the sounds of an open back Fender or Vox combo and a sealed cab Mesa or Marshall stack? However, in the context of a recording or even a large, "stadium" gig an amp modeller might be indistinguishable from the real thing.

Yep. Which room is the real amp in? The real amps can sound like crap, too. It seems everyone thinks a tube amp sounds perfect all the time. Not true.

 

Modelers, on the other hand, have a great recall capability.

[Gabriel E.]

I think modellers have gooten very close and it's only a matter of time before they totally nail the sounds of the original amps.

 

However, what modellers lack is the DYNAMIC RESPONSE that a good tube amp delivers. They're not as responsive to dynamic changes in your playing. And while it's slight, there's also a noticable latency caused by the A/D conversion.

 

So they may almost sound the same but they don't feel the same.

[MadStrum]

I've gotta agree with this. Lots of times I think to myself, it sounds just like it.. but somehow it's not there. I have realised that some modelled sounds do not react very well to picking dynamics.. guess I'm just nitpicking.

 

Pier.

 

Originally posted by Gabriel E.:

So they may almost sound the same but they don't feel the same.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by MadStrum:

I've gotta agree with this. Lots of times I think to myself, it sounds just like it.. but somehow it's not there. I have realised that some modelled sounds do not react very well to picking dynamics.. guess I'm just nitpicking.

 

Pier.

 

Originally posted by Gabriel E.:

So they may almost sound the same but they don't feel the same.

NO no your NOT nitpicky at all! they dont react at all to picking dynamics the same as a tube amp or even a SS amp with no modeling. The higher in volume you use them the less they display the model of the amp they are modeling. I think that is why the guys say they are better used in studio situations.

[fogman]

Interesting topic.

Please keep it going.

It is answering a lot of questions I've had.

I'm a back room player. I may do some recording. There's no plans on gigs, so I was leaning towards a Modeller. But as I understand it. Tubes ultimately rule. But I think tubes may be overkill for me needs.

[J. Robert Rennix]

Originally posted by fogman:

Interesting topic.

Please keep it going.

It is answering a lot of questions I've had.

I'm a back room player. I may do some recording. There's no plans on gigs, so I was leaning towards a Modeller. But as I understand it. Tubes ultimately rule. But I think tubes may be overkill for me needs.

Tube amps are definitely more fun to play, but if you're not recording as a full band in a quality studio then you won't notice much of a difference between a tube amp and a modeller. If you're recording yourself at home (or worse in an apartment), then you're not going to reap all the benefits of using a tube amp. If you're recording yourself at home and every track is an overdub, you're not going to get all the good vibes from your tube amp. You're only going to hear that tube amp through headphones while you play along with your drum tracks. Plus, if you can't turn up the volume on your tube amp, or if your studio has some weak links in the signal chain (cheap mics, cheap preamps, cheap signal processers, cheap AD converters, etc.), then you're not going to get a better sound out of the tube amp than a modeller.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Or maybe if you use a hotshoe ahead of the amp, you MIGHT get some benefit from the tube amp, even in home recording? don't know never did it I don't do home recording.

[J. Robert Rennix]

Even if you're using a hot plate or other attenuator to get good tones out of the amp, it won't matter if you have other weak links in your home set up and you can't get those good tones recorded. Suppose you're recording a real vintage Marshall plexi or Vox AC30, but you're recording with a Digitech Mbox (a pretty mediocre front end) and the only mic you have is a Shure SM58. Or suppose you have a decent mic and a good preamp, but you're recording on an older DAW setup recording at 16 bit, 44.1K and your studio has terrible acoustics. Are you really gaining anything by using the vintage amp in either of those two situations? Maybe you'll get a better performance, but chances are you're monitoring the rig through your headphones so it won't matter. Heck, even if you can get some great tones and a great performance recorded, it's easy to ruin it all with a bad mix and chances are no one will notice your killer tube amp on the recording.

 

And I'm not saying the amp modeller is the best possible recording rig. Ideally all of us would have a killer studio and a house full of classic and exotic tube amps. If you guys on the guitar forum would like to trade me a Marshall JCM800, a blackface Fender Deluxe and a Vox AC30 for my PODxt ... please let me know. All I'm saying is the modellers are really usefull tools that can go head to head with tube amps in a lot of situations. Personally, I'm recording all of my music on my Powerbook computer in Apple's Garageband using PODxt. In my situation, I probably couldn't get any better sounds out of a tube amp. The limitations of my recording platform (Garageband) and the USB/Firewire interfaces available for my computer would make it difficult to get any better tones out of a tube amp. Even in the future, if I upgrade to a better DAW system and pick up a tube amp, I'll still want that amp modeller in the studio to pick up the tones that I don't have.

[Prague]

Originally posted by jrob:

Even if you're using a hot plate or other attenuator to get good tones out of the amp, it won't matter if you have other weak links in your home set up and you can't get those good tones recorded. Suppose you're recording a real vintage Marshall plexi or Vox AC30, but you're recording with a Digitech Mbox (a pretty mediocre front end) and the only mic you have is a Shure SM58. Or suppose you have a decent mic and a good preamp, but you're recording on an older DAW setup recording at 16 bit, 44.1K and your studio has terrible acoustics. Are you really gaining anything by using the vintage amp in either of those two situations? Maybe you'll get a better performance, but chances are you're monitoring the rig through your headphones so it won't matter. Heck, even if you can get some great tones and a great performance recorded, it's easy to ruin it all with a bad mix and chances are no one will notice your killer tube amp on the recording.

 

And I'm not saying the amp modeller is the best possible recording rig. Ideally all of us would have a killer studio and a house full of classic and exotic tube amps. If you guys on the guitar forum would like to trade me a Marshall JCM800, a blackface Fender Deluxe and a Vox AC30 for my PODxt ... please let me know. All I'm saying is the modellers are really usefull tools that can go head to head with tube amps in a lot of situations. Personally, I'm recording all of my music on my Powerbook computer in Apple's Garageband using PODxt. In my situation, I probably couldn't get any better sounds out of a tube amp. The limitations of my recording platform (Garageband) and the USB/Firewire interfaces available for my computer would make it difficult to get any better tones out of a tube amp. Even in the future, if I upgrade to a better DAW system and pick up a tube amp, I'll still want that amp modeller in the studio to pick up the tones that I don't have.

Very practical points. Wish you lived here.

 

It seems the tube faithful get one tone and have to stick to it. Another tone = another amp.

 

I would stick with one amp as much as I would stick with one guitar. In other words, I wouldn't.

 

Modeling has brought variety to guitar playing. Limitations are found everywhere, if that's what you are looking for.

[MadStrum]

I think modellers are really useful for recording... in a mix, pple aren't really gonna go .."Hey that's a FAKE AC-30 model" (well at least for non-guitarists anyway). In a mix I think the difference is not that noticable..

 

Pier.

[MadStrum]

May I add that modelling software like guitar rig and amplitube are excellent for hard-core tweak-heads, coz you can record a clean signal and tweak it within the software to your heart's content!

 

Pier.

[Virtual Jim]

I thought I'd add my two cents here, especially since I switched from modelling amps to tube amps.

 

I once was a firm believer in the power of digital technology. It is STILL amazing what they can pack into their products, but I've "grown out" of it.

 

Mainly because the devil's in the details. As my ear's been trained due to be a professional audio engineer, I've began to notice the differences. If you want a laundry list, I can oblige, but it's a rather moot point. Suffice it to say, close, but no cigar.

 

Digital's definitely got it's place, but it's not in replacing the real thing. I can't think of one band I respect that uses modelling amps (a whole lot of ones I don't, however). PODs and GuitarPorts are a practicing godsend.

 

And was anyone else really not impressed with the effects in GuitarRig?

[Gruupi]

Hey Virtual Jim, I wouldn't mind the laundry list of details. Its always good to tap the brain of someone trained in audio, they tend to hear things most of us wouldn't know how to describe in words.