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How do you know if your wireless sucks tone?


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Ive been going through all my equipment and trashing anything that alters my tone.

So far only cables are getting tossed as I try to purchase decent equipment to begin with.

Ive been using audio-technicas 1400 Series wireless. And for the life of me I cant figure out how to A/B the thing so I can hear what, if anything its doing.

 

Am I missing something here?

When i get big i'm gonn'a get an electric guitar...

When i get real big...

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We had a very comprensive discussion on the wireless situation about three months ago I think..do a search and you should find tons of discussion on them and tone. but the short story is there is NO DOUBT at ALL that it effects tone... not always a bad thing ..just different..I would not gig without mine i can tell ya that ..tone or no tone!!!!!
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Originally posted by ellwood:

We had a very comprensive discussion on the wireless situation about three months ago I think..do a search and you should find tons of discussion on them and tone. but the short story is there is NO DOUBT at ALL that it effects tone... not always a bad thing ..just different..I would not gig without mine i can tell ya that ..tone or no tone!!!!!

Have you ever had a problem on stage with one?

cutting out

picking up other signals

The story of life is quicker then the blink of an eye, the story of love is hello, goodbye.
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Originally posted by Darklava:

Originally posted by ellwood:

We had a very comprensive discussion on the wireless situation about three months ago I think..do a search and you should find tons of discussion on them and tone. but the short story is there is NO DOUBT at ALL that it effects tone... not always a bad thing ..just different..I would not gig without mine i can tell ya that ..tone or no tone!!!!!

Have you ever had a problem on stage with one?

cutting out

picking up other signals

Nope never! the only time I didnt get strong connection was when I let the battery run down! my fault not the wireless rig.
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Originally posted by LPCustom:

Do you mean be able to switch between wired and wireless?

Yes that's it. I know there is/maybe some tonal change but if I could A/B it I would know exactly how much of what and when... :D

When i get big i'm gonn'a get an electric guitar...

When i get real big...

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I guess the easiest way to A/B it would be to put an A/B switch upstream of your receiver and hook a cable into the A/B switch, too. You'd have to switch your guitar between the two by hand as you switch the A/B switch. That's the only way I know how to do it except for using TWO A/B switches which could get ridiculous pretty quickly. And two A/B switches implies more cables and more places to lose tone.

Born on the Bayou

 

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Well LP I was thinking the same thing. Ive been thinking about how to do this for awhile now.

 

I just sat down and drew out the schematic so I could see the easiest way to do it and guess what! Theres nothing to it. :o

 

Guitar > Input

Output > Amp

Send > Transmitter

Return > Receiver

 

Something about that transmitter plugged into the guitar was confusing the hell out of me.

Anyway, just tried it and I cant hear any tone difference (low volume). Ill have to try it some more later on, but it looks good so far.

I hope someone learned something from this, besides me. :o

 

Ellwood have you tried this?

When i get big i'm gonn'a get an electric guitar...

When i get real big...

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Well not exactly like that ... I cannot hear it on the playbacks of me playing at gigs .. the sound man says there is a difference in my low tones ...and again not bad just a little different but I have listened lots of times cuz we record all rehersals and live gigs ..some of the live gigs are on soundclick... I dunno i guess my ears are so fried after all these years of playing the sound guy can hear the difference but Ill be hog tied if I can :D
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ellwood, EmptinessOfYouth,

From my understanding of human hearing the ear is great at comparing different tones or frequencies but makes a lousy spectrum analyzer. I feel I have a hard time comparing two different signals that are not played back to back or continually. Especially when trying to compare the subtle nuances of tone and compression.

 

So for me at least an A/B or True Bypass switch is the only cost effective way to really understand the differences between two signal paths.

 

I need to work on it some more, my battery indicator was a little dim and it was too late at night to crank-it. I need to try different pick-up combinations as well.

 

What I believe I heard was compression, by-wire, it was just a little bit more lively and dynamic. Wireless was slightlywell compressed. But if I had to hear that minor of a difference between two recordings or between the time it takes manually change signal paths, I seriously doubt that my perception of the difference would be the same, if at all.

 

To me this is a kind of ear training, I can read this forum all year, but if Im not sure that Ive experienced first hand what folks are talking about, Im not going to get much out of it.

 

I recommend trying this, its pretty cool! :thu:

 

And much easier that I first thought. :rolleyes::o

When i get big i'm gonn'a get an electric guitar...

When i get real big...

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If your wireless system is digital instead of analog, then you may be getting some compression of the signal caused by the A to D and subsequent D to A conversions. If they use a lossy compression algorithm then you can actually be losing signal and it could sound like the signal is compressed. The A->D and D->A equipment may also be compressing the dynamic range by clamping it prior to conversion.

Born on the Bayou

 

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Originally posted by Darklava:

Have you ever had a problem on stage with one?

cutting out

picking up other signals

Ooooh, yeah. At a gig, I picked up a CB radio conversation :o Full battery, standing within 10 ft of the receiver. Don't think I need to tell you how embarrassing that was ;) This was in the early '90s though, so I'm sure (hope) they've gotten better since then.

 

-DC

It's not simple to be simple.

-H. Matisse

 

Ross Precision Guitars

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Dont know LP it looks like mine is analog (link in first post) and Im sorry to say I dont have a clue whats going on inside, although I wish I did.

 

DC some of those good old boys on the CB were probably using bi-amps and putting out just a wee-bit more power than the legal maximum.

 

By-the-way Darklava mine has never cut-out or picked up anything that wasnt plugged into the transmitter. Only freaky thing is when the battery dies, the distortion slowly builds maken you think your amp is about to explode. :eek:

When i get big i'm gonn'a get an electric guitar...

When i get real big...

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Originally posted by LPCustom:

If your wireless system is digital instead of analog, then you may be getting some compression of the signal caused by the A to D and subsequent D to A conversions. If they use a lossy compression algorithm then you can actually be losing signal and it could sound like the signal is compressed. The A->D and D->A equipment may also be compressing the dynamic range by clamping it prior to conversion.

Actually, it's the other way around. ;)

 

I can't speak to the sampling frequency or bit depth of the only digital wireless I know of made for guitar (X-Wire, which was bought by Sennheiser who made their own digital for a few years. Both of which have been discontinued for several years), but the beauty of these digital wireless systems is that they didn't display the compression that is inherent in analog systems that use companding as a mechanism to produce a strong transmission signal. That's a moot point with digital systems because only the data signal, and not the data that's reconstituted into an analog signal at the receive is ever compressed.

 

X-Wire attempted to sell their units based on the amazing timbre of acoustic guitars that was presented at the output of their receivers. They were so obsessed with providing exactly the timbre (acoustic or electric) a player expected that they offerred to examine your favorite cable and create a transmitter cable that reacted the same way. So if you preferred a specific, 15' cable (as opposed to the standard, 18'6" guitar leads, or any other, for that matter) made from Mogami quad then they'd make the short cable from guitar output to transmitter input react the same way. Pretty cool, but apparently not viable in the market. I've never heard a reason from Sennheiser or any other source as to why they killed the technology, but in the end AMS was selling $500+ systems for less than $300. I didn't have the money and they don't have any NOS according to one of their phone reps. :(

 

Every analog wireless uses companding and, as Ell pointed out, it yields an imperfect expansion that results in a compressed signal. Many guitar and bass players like the sound, but it is different than using even a relatively standard cable.

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

Soundclick

fntstcsnd

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plug a guitar cord and the output of your wireless receiver into an amp, you could also plug them into 2 channels of the PA system set the same way, we're not trying to get great tone, just trying to determine if there is a difference

 

step 1: plug in cord - play

step 2: unplug cord, plug in transmitter - play

 

repeat steps 1 & 2 as often as necessary to find out what you want to hear

- due to recent cutbacks, the light at the end of the tunnel has been SWITCHED OFF
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I have to disagree, Badblues. IMO, you cannot separate the timbre of his rig from this test. The perceived differences into a bland PA input for an electric guitar tone will not be equivalent to the perceived differences into his amp, an integral part of that tone.

 

But I'm with you. Plug and unplug. You'll hear the differences between the two if they're appreciable enough to matter.

 

And have a friend do the plugging/unplugging of the receiver and cable at the amp end to make the changeovers more efficient and less of an interuption in your memory of what you just heard.

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

Soundclick

fntstcsnd

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Well thanks guys But in a previous post I explained I solved the problem. A/Bn a wireless system is easy; I was just having trouble visualizing how to do it. One has to get around the tunnel vision of having the transmitter plugged into the guitar. :o:rolleyes:

 

My good friend Steve, next door neighbor, and recording studio owner/sound engineer was over last night. I A/Bed the wireless for him and he concurs that what were hearing is a very slight amount compression. This is way cool because 99% of the time I can still feel good about using it. No Wire, thank gawd! :D

 

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

I have to disagree, Badblues. IMO, you cannot separate the timbre of his rig from this test. The perceived differences into a bland PA input for an electric guitar tone will not be equivalent to the perceived differences into his amp, an integral part of that tone.

Absolutely; were talking about something that is very subtle in nature. So much so that worrying about is pointless, but only after the fact!

 

A little background:

What has brought me to this point was a major upgrade: Im now playing through a THD UniValve and Cab, the preamp and tone stack in this amp is IMO hyper sensitive.

Along with fantasticsounds and many others advice on using George L's cables which allows the full bandwidth of a guitar to actually get to the amp.

 

I feel this is the first time Ive ever played an electric guitar that really sounds like what we perceive an electric guitar should sound like. Now I just wish I had some musical talent to go with it! :rolleyes:

When i get big i'm gonn'a get an electric guitar...

When i get real big...

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