tube screamer for solo boost?

[PickPunk]

Hey everyone. So heres my situation, i'm looking for a pedal to use as a solo booster. I play through a peavey bandit (2 channel) and i usually use the distortion channel (kind of a scooped mid metally tone) for rhythms (im in a hardcore band) but when i solo the volume drop from playing on one string makes me barely audible with the rhythm playing. I want something that can give me a slight volume boost (maybe 5-10 db) just so my solos are more audible (but dont overpower the mix) and maybe warm the tone up a little and add some mids and a little more gain for sustain. I read someone's description of a tube screamer in another thread and it sounded like it would make an alright solo booster if plugged in front of the amp considering it doesnt add too much gain and has a pretty warm mid-heavy tone. I have no other effects at the time, i just plug straight into my amp. i was wondering if this would work and how it would change the tone cosidering it would be added into the distortion mix. Also if anyone had any other suggestions that would be hlepful, i was thinking about that MXR kerry king 10 band eq thing too, would that work better since i could plug it into the effects loop and there's more tonal control?

 

peace

[Dr. Ellwood]

Ok lets talk about the Tube Screamer..I have used one for many years now with all different kinds of rigs and they are great devices. That said I gotta clue you in on some universal mix rules that never change no matter what kind of music you play. I have played many different kinds of music except metal but in this case what Im going to tell ya still is valid. First the TubeScreamer..it WILL do what you want and it will react the way you want. However I gotta talk a little about the overall mix of your band ..not just the guitar player ..the complete overall mix of the band.. There is a thing called the 2/3 1/3 rule. And it is a rule of thumb that bands with experience always follow no matter who they are and no matter how loud they play. The rule refers to how loud the lead instrument is supposed to be compared to the rest of the band. The lead instrument should be 1/3 higher in gain than the rest of the band and when done with the solo should drop back with the rest of the band to 2/3s of its loudest potential. This goes for any instrument when that instrument is soloingvoice..keyboardsguitar . Or whatever is soloing at the time.So when you set the normal playing volume of your mix no matter how high the volume is going to be the lead instrument will be 1/3 higher than anyone else. If you follow this simple formula your sound man will love youyour audience will appreciate your professionalism and other players will say you have your sound down tight. When you learn and practice this rule you will have made the jump from amateur to professional thinking in your playing. Lets just got through how you are going to begin to approach setting up this formula the next time you rehearse with the band when you start playing start with the loudest song on your set list this will be the baseline for setting overall volume of the band ..the whole band not just your instrument. Usually everyone sets up to the drummers volumethen add in the rhythm players ..keyboards ..2nd guitar player and lead players at their rhythm volume.. When the whole band agrees that the volume is right where it should be ..meaning you can easily hear the singer NOW play at the set volume and THEN set up your TubeScreamer for the 1/3 BOOSTyou will have it .. But remember the amount of volume that your singer is at is exactly where your TubeScreamer should take you and NO HIGHER! This is a professional mix. Good luck. Hope this helps ya.

[Gifthorse]

I agree with Ellwood on the mix stuff.

 

I have always been open but I have never heard a distortion or overdrive pedal that didn't effect the natural feel of the amp to the point where to A/B it sounds considerably smaller and more compressed. That is only my personal preference, I would always just use a clean boost.

 

I think if you want to cut, you should get an EQ pedal and boost your mids for the solos. Run it through the loop of course and boost it 1/3 higher like Ellwood said. Boss has one that I had. It works pretty good. Mids also seem to add sustain, they create more feedback. Sometimes I use my wah to draw feedback from my amp by boosting the midrange frequencies.

 

More distortion-- (considering I am assuming you are using alot for rythm)-- will only make you sound smaller for 'single note' leads. You want more punch and headroom for your leads, not midscooped oblivion cuz then you will be an annoying mime live.

[Bluesape]

I use my Tube Screamer all the time for an ambient warm rhythm sound, and I add fx from there.

[BluesWithoutBlame]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Ok lets talk about the Tube Screamer..I have used one for many years now with all different kinds of rigs and they are great devices. That said I gotta clue you in on some universal mix rules that never change no matter what kind of music you play. I have played many different kinds of music except metal but in this case what Im going to tell ya still is valid. First the TubeScreamer..it WILL do what you want and it will react the way you want. However I gotta talk a little about the overall mix of your band ..not just the guitar player ..the complete overall mix of the band.. There is a thing called the 2/3 1/3 rule. And it is a rule of thumb that bands with experience always follow no matter who they are and no matter how loud they play. The rule refers to how loud the lead instrument is supposed to be compared to the rest of the band. The lead instrument should be 1/3 higher in gain than the rest of the band and when done with the solo should drop back with the rest of the band to 2/3s of its loudest potential. This goes for any instrument when that instrument is soloingvoice..keyboardsguitar . Or whatever is soloing at the time.So when you set the normal playing volume of your mix no matter how high the volume is going to be the lead instrument will be 1/3 higher than anyone else. If you follow this simple formula your sound man will love youyour audience will appreciate your professionalism and other players will say you have your sound down tight. When you learn and practice this rule you will have made the jump from amateur to professional thinking in your playing. Lets just got through how you are going to begin to approach setting up this formula the next time you rehearse with the band when you start playing start with the loudest song on your set list this will be the baseline for setting overall volume of the band ..the whole band not just your instrument. Usually everyone sets up to the drummers volumethen add in the rhythm players ..keyboards ..2nd guitar player and lead players at their rhythm volume.. When the whole band agrees that the volume is right where it should be ..meaning you can easily hear the singer NOW play at the set volume and THEN set up your TubeScreamer for the 1/3 BOOSTyou will have it .. But remember the amount of volume that your singer is at is exactly where your TubeScreamer should take you and NO HIGHER! This is a professional mix. Good luck. Hope this helps ya.

Ellwood, that is some interesting theory you came out with. I like it, and have tried to adhere to it (I never thought about 1/3 vs. 2/3, as specific as that...sounds right though!).

 

Just some points that I have with the theory.

 

1) I realized a while back that the two things that determine a bands mix are these (kind of what you mentioned)

- The drums determine the lowest volume you can play at. Drummer have some leeway as to how hard they play, but generally they have a baseline you can't really get around.

- The vocals will set your highest volume when not soloing. Th band ought to do what you say, about being 1/3 above the rest of the band in the verses.

 

 

But with that said, I have a couple of questions. How do you determine what is "1/3 above the band" ? It's hard to quantify, and has a lot to do with "perceived volume" in that an overdriven guitar sounds louder than a clean guitar but depending on the EQ doesn't necessarily cut through the mix as much.

 

Also, when a sound man sets levels, he sets them at "normal" volume...i.e. in the mix. But some of them adjust...so that if you turn up they turn you down. I think it is a difficult relationship with the soundman. I just did a gig where he couldn't communicate with us, and decided on his own who should be heard, letting the bass, vocals and drums be loudest, and pretty much burying the guitars (rythm and lead).

 

I like the theory. I would love to follow it, but there are also things I never have understood..like in Muddy Waters band, there are times when his sidemen are all about as loud as the vocals while the vocal is the focus point, yet it works! It also has to do with how the musicians play.

 

But again, generally, I have tried to follow what you describe.

 

I think there is a wide range of differences because of soundmen, and other factors.

 

I would love to hear any advice on this, because it is a problem with the mix in my band.

[BlueZet]

soundmen adjusting is often a result of guitar players (or other instrumentalists) cheating at soundcheck. Do NOT make the mistake of doing the soundcheck with your guitar volume 1/2-way down, in order to "be able to push the guitar a bit when soloing". The soundman is going to set his input to this volume, then when you turn up, his LED's go WAY up red and he has to adjust or you sound like #### (or fry his equipment).

 

as I play a lot with my guitar volume to go from rhythm to lead an back (and in between)- I always talk to the soundman first, tell him about the way I play, then give him both my lowest rhythm volume AND everything "full throttle" - HIS job is to set his board so it can take both - I am not a soundman, but I found that most of them can do this very well, as long as you don't take them by surprise (some even manage when you DO surprise them) and those who can't definitely can't save your sound if you decide to cheat and things start to go wrong

[Dr. Ellwood]

I will try to answer as best I can here..not being a sound guy..but I do have some meaningful experience as a producer of other peoples music in live recordings and studio recordings. First I have to say that I control where the base line levels are set. The soundman in our case is there to set nominal levels (With ME) ..run cables..set mikes both instrumental and vocal and to set monitor levels both personal ear..hotspots and wedge stage monitors... (all levels are in the end up to MY discretion)it MUST be that way to have consistency between performances no matter where the venue is. There have been occasions when UNION soundmen have set our level but they are hired by the promoters and our soundman is there and SUGGESTS in his own way how we might want to set nominals (this can get a little touchy)..we hope for the best in those cases. Neil here on the forum can detail any of my comments from a pro sound tech perspective. Lets look at it like a passing gear on a car... the speed limit is 55 and the band is set up to play in ALL situations at 55 the lead instrument is set to 55 except when passing..then his maximum volume is set at 75... I know you see the relationship here.... remember this ratio can be set at ANY baseline nominal overall volume level. The nominal levels are set to environmental concerns...eg. soft rooms.. ceiling heights.. number of human bodies contained within the venue..VENUE OWNERS WISHES with regard to maximum volume levels etc.... key to ALL of this is the SOUNDCHECK! where nominal levels are baselined to the venue. SO all instruments are PINNED to maximum levels individually and then the overall nominal volume is critiqued by ME!! ....as far as percieved volume as opposed to real volume..I guess that is the subjective part of the decisions that need to be made as a matter of experience and taste. Try it out... set up this way play a few songs listen to the playback..before I close I want to stress one thing that is my opinion only... THE SINGER OR THE VOCAL PARTS RULE!!! always in the mix no matter what instruments are set at.... and thats from a diehard guitar guy!!! Oh an just a little comment on your comment about the Muddy Waters mix..again production decisions are made by the producer/engineer/group... there instances where the producer will want to have the levels set at or near the instrumental levels... for vibe or coloration...but in GENERAL the rule.....well the rule....rules!!!!

[Gifthorse]

mids make a lead come through the mix. If you scoop them then you will sound really thin and buzzy. This is how most metal and thrash bands sound live when I see them. The guys with good tones use mids for solos. The mids make you stand out from the bass and highs. More distortion compresses your tone and makes it blend in more with the rest of the noise. I have read that the Robert Keeley modified tube screamers are much better than the store bought ones.

 

I already pitched my opinion on distortion and overdrive pedals, but of course I know many many pros use them and have unique cool tones. Just from my experience they always make the tone more transistor sounding. never used a Keeley tho.

 

My buddy swears by the Keeley Time Machine.

[theyapster]

hi pick punk

the guys already have given you some very good ideas, go to your store and try a marshall bluesbreaker mk 2 pedal, its got a boost and its damn good, the drive is ok on it but not amazing, but for a very well constructed pedal that will withstand a lot of hammer its a great booster, try 1 out see what you think

[J. Robert Rennix]

PickPunk, you might just consider adding more mids to your overall tone (rhythm and solo). The scooped-mid thing sounds good when you're playing in a room by yourself, but it usually gets the guitar buried in the mix live. Boost your mids and you'll cut through better at all times. Try to set your EQ when you're playing with the rest of the band, not when you're at home by yourself.

 

The Tube Screamer (and other classic distortion pedals like the Rat, Big Muff, Boss DS-1, DOD-250 and MXR Distortion+) make great solo boosts because they usually have a built in high pass filter or treble boost. These pedals are voiced to boost the mids and usually cut out the lowest bass frequencies guitarists often discribe as "flab". This is why a lot of guitarists will use an EQ or treble booster instead of a distortion pedal to dial in their solo or high gain sounds.

 

Keep in mind that the "scooped-mid" sounds from your favorite guitarists don't just come from their Marshall, Mesa or 5150 amps ... sound engineers on stage and at the studio play a big role in those sounds too (and I bet a lot of times they're boosting mids on the mixing board to correct for the scooped EQ on your amp).

[lefty1]

Fulltone makes an awesome pedal called a Fat Boost that will do exactly what you want.

 

I actually use a Mesa Triple Rectifier head. It's a 3 channel amp that features a solo boost for each channel. I mostly play Classic rock and Jazz, but, I was in a Metal band for years and this amp kills for anything heavy.

 

As far as the volume goes I've always followed the rule that if you can't hear EVERYONE in the band CLEARLY then YOU are playing too loud. If you can get everyone to follow that rule your volume mix will be perfect. It works but it requires everyone listening to the whole band.

 

This rule still applies while you're soloing. If you can't hear the band how can you play off them?

Peace,

Lefty

[Bejeeber]

Well I have one of those classic tube screamers, and I think one would probably be just the ticket for what you want to do.

[PickPunk]

Hey guys thanks for all the input, i though it was weird that i wasnt cutting through well before because the mid on my distortion channel was at ten but then i switched the voicing switch on that channel to the high gain setting (way more mids, kind of a classic marshally tone which im actually liking alot better even practicing alone) my solos came through way clearer even without a boost and it helped the levels balance out really well when i was just practicing with my other guitarist, hopefully we'll have a whole band practice soon an then i can test it out in a full mix. I never thought to use this voicing on the bandit but i'm actually liking it way better than the scooped "modern" voicing..has a nice growl to it.

 

I think i will eventually get something to use as a booster anyway...im actually looking into multi effects an the models i'm looking at (particularly the digitech gnx3000)all have a modeled tube screamer in the stomp section...if i were to use that with the processors amp models it would have the same sort of effect right(dont want to start an arguement here as i know everyone has their own opinion of digital effects but i just assume it would have the same general effect even if it doesnt have the same tone)?

 

thanks again