Marshall Stacks

[DP3]

I'm not a guitar guy, just run a studio. Record alot of rock type bands, different amps, gtrs ect.

But i've noticed that most if not all Marshall stacks, the 4 speaker cab and amp, have this harsh edgy sound thats really hard on the ears. It's a boxy mid rangy sound that's very hard to work with.

This is before the mic, just being in the room with it.

Is it just me or could it be the guitars they use with it?

[Sean Eldon]

Depends on what amp their using. All of the Marshall Valvestate stacks sound terrible, sort of like you described. I've never heard a JCM800 or a Plexi head that I didn't like...

[HiRoller]

One 4x12 is a half stack, a 12 pack of beer is a half rack. A half stack and a half rack is a beautiful thing.

[Virtual Jim]

Ibanez guitars are a huge offender of the problem you describe. Using a guitar like that and sweeping the mids makes it even worse.

 

Also, I'm much more a fan of the faux-vintage Marshall cabs than the newer ones.

[fantasticsound]

How are you mic'ing the cabinet?

 

If you're close-mic'ing one speaker, slightly off axis from the voice coil, I'd expect they sound really harsh. Try placing the close mic in other positions. In fact, they tend to sound smoother a bit off the cabinet, directly between the speakers. Experiment til you find what you're looking for.

 

Now, do you notice this problem in the room with the stack or is it just through the control room monitors?

[g.]

Ibanez guitars are a huge offender of the problem you describe. Using a guitar like that and sweeping the mids makes it even worse.

Yes, all the gazillion of diverse models past and present, through a poor application of Japanese and Korean quality control and wood choices, makes each and every Ibanez guitar sound EXACTLY THE SAME - and very displeasing at that! No matter what pickups, scale length, or other constuction features it may have! These oriental secrets, guarded for generations by guitar ninjas from occidental eyes, assures that the guitars will attract players like that dumbshit Vai guy into playing some model or other.

 

Who writes this material anyway? They sure do get around a lot, finding time on many forums and even in the Harmony Central review section.

[evets]

Also, the G12T-75 speakers loaded in the 1960 cabs contribute to this. Find a cab with Greenbacks (1960AX, BX, etc) and don't be afraid to roll most of the treble off, no matter which head you're using. A great old plexi will still bite ya!

[coyote]

The Greenbacks ain't the optimum speakers, at least not if you're running a decent Marshall. The late 60s, early 70s all-tube amps cranked up thru original cabs from that era give a beautiful, smooth distortion; not only that, but they are also the most sensitive to pick dynamics. I realize that's frowned upon in the hypercompressed digital recording world we now inhabit

 

Oh yeah, one other thing: Record 'em to analog tape, and allow it to saturate a bit. It'll be music to your ears.

[evets]

Originally posted by coyote:

The Greenbacks ain't the optimum speakers, at least not if you're running a decent Marshall. The late 60s, early 70s all-tube amps cranked up thru original cabs from that era give a beautiful, smooth distortion; not only that, but they are also the most sensitive to pick dynamics.

'Not sure I'm understandin' ya correctly, Coyote. My old early seventies cab came loaded with Greenbacks. (I think that's what they put in all the old Marshall cabs)Back then we didn't have all the speaker options we got now.

[DP3]

This is in the room, just standing there in front of the cab. The smaller marshall amps don't sound bad, the all in one. Even without the harsh edge, it's still a boxy midrangy sound.

Just don't like it.

[g.]

Try them little knobby things up near the top there.

 

Then consider a future in accounting.

 

Marshalls are a big part of rock heritage in recording and live. Better learn how to dial them in good and record them good. Saying they suck won't get you very far ; }

[doc taz]

Originally posted by greenboy:

Try them little knobby things up near the top there.

 

Then consider a future in accounting.

 

Marshalls are a big part of rock heritage in recording and live. Better learn how to dial them in good and record them good. Saying they suck won't get you very far ; }

I want one, too, though not of the tube or the hybrid variety. (Maybe a tubed one in the future.) I prefer the 50 or 100 Watt MG's. Good enough for me, and hooking the MG100 head to a Marshall Vintage 4x12, loaded with 70 watt Celestions, just sounds great.

[fantasticsound]

If the sound coming out of the amp (You do listen to the sound coming out of the amp before you hide behind a control room wall, a mic and studio monitors, right?) sounds good, then it's not the amp's problem. It's either your mic or your mic'ing skills. As Greenboy aptly suggests, if one of the most ubixutous amps in recording history isn't cutting it, you better find another job because someone will get that amp to sound good, recorded.

 

Please, don't think I'm flaming you 'cause I'm not. But the fact is there are a lot of people who like Marshalls, and I'd be surprised if there were only a few of your favorite songs that were recorded with them. So someone is making them sound good.

 

Of course, there is[/] another explanation.

 

The previous comment assumes the amp sounds good. There are many reasons, none of which are your fault, that the amp can sound harsh. (Damn musicians... always screwing up their own sound. )

 

And, of course, if you have immense tact, you may get a musician to dial in what appears, IHOHO, to be a horrible timbre that records and monitors well on your playback system. This is tricky, however, because the musician will probably be somewhat uncomfortable. If he/she stays in the studio, the sound won't be right, but if he/she plays in the control room, it probably won't have the power that inspires great performances from loud musicians.

 

So whaddaya think? Is it you, your gear, or the client's amp?

[Blue Strat]

Maybe it's the room. The acoustics of the room can make a huge difference in how you're hearing the amps. Have you recorded many other guitar amps in the same room?

 

Marshalls have a pronounced midrange and treble tone. The tone controls are designed to reduce bass below a certain frequency, and the midrange notch is at a higher frequency than in most Fender amps.

[DP3]

Wow, I don't know how many times I have to say it, it's standing right there, in front of the cab, it sounds horrible. You assume I didn't try to adjust the settings on the amp, I did.

 

I just wanted some opinions from you guitar dudes. Thanks for your feedback.

[Dennyf]

You have to say it at least three times. Remember, you're asking guitar players. And your first post won't count.

 

Actually, at the risk of being shunned by the rest of the community, I've had much the same experience every time I've been amp shopping, which is why I don't own a Marshall. If amps were singers, Marshalls would be Axl Rose. Good in their own right, but ya gotta dig that adenoidal quality.

 

But out of the other side of my mouth (so to type), most of my favorite recorded guitar tones are from Marshalls.

[Noodlesbad]

Originally posted by Dennyf:

You have to say it at least three times. Remember, you're asking guitar players. And your first post won't count.

 

Actually, at the risk of being shunned by the rest of the community, I've had much the same experience every time I've been amp shopping, which is why I don't own a Marshall. If amps were singers, Marshalls would be Axl Rose. Good in their own right, but ya gotta dig that adenoidal quality.

 

But out of the other side of my mouth (so to type), most of my favorite recorded guitar tones are from Marshalls.

Ditto. When I was out shopping for amps I tried Marshalls of various size and type (solid state, hybrid, valve) and didn't think much of any of them.

 

Obviously a lot of people do like them including many guitar legends and it seems silly to assume that the particular amps I tried were all lemons, so I just chalked it up to my own tastes.

 

I ended up buying a solid state Fender, and now use a 50-watt Traynor with EL34s; when it comes to good and bad-sounding gear, I figure at least half of it is down to one's own ears.

 

I also listen to a lot of 1960s and 70s music, and obviously a lot of the guitarists on those recordings used Marshall stacks ... the combination of the player and his or her gear (mostly the player, I might add) is obviously the important thing, so maybe I just sound awful (more awful than usual?) when playing through a Marshall.

[Noodlesbad]

Originally posted by Dennyf:

You have to say it at least three times. Remember, you're asking guitar players. And your first post won't count.

 

Actually, at the risk of being shunned by the rest of the community, I've had much the same experience every time I've been amp shopping, which is why I don't own a Marshall. If amps were singers, Marshalls would be Axl Rose. Good in their own right, but ya gotta dig that adenoidal quality.

 

But out of the other side of my mouth (so to type), most of my favorite recorded guitar tones are from Marshalls.

Ditto. When I was out shopping for amps I tried Marshalls of various size and type (solid state, hybrid, valve) and didn't think much of any of them.

 

Obviously a lot of people do like them including many guitar legends and it seems silly to assume that the particular amps I tried were all lemons, so I just chalked it up to my own tastes.

 

I ended up buying a solid state Fender, and now use a 50-watt Traynor with EL34s; when it comes to good and bad-sounding gear, I figure at least half of it is down to one's own ears.

 

I also listen to a lot of 1960s and 70s music, and obviously a lot of the guitarists on those recordings used Marshall stacks ... the combination of the player and his or her gear (mostly the player, I might add) is obviously the important thing, so maybe I just sound awful (more awful than usual?) when playing through a Marshall.

[Gunnar]

Originally posted by DP3:

Wow, I don't know how many times I have to say it, it's standing right there, in front of the cab, it sounds horrible. You assume I didn't try to adjust the settings on the amp, I did.

 

I just wanted some opinions from you guitar dudes. Thanks for your feedback.

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif I own a couple of Marshall heads with closed back cabs, and I know exactly what you are talking about. If you are standing right in front of the cab (and particularly if the cab is also placed onto something that brings it up to your head/ear level) it will sound harsh/brittle/raspy/etc. However, if you place the cab on the floor and move 5-6 ft. out to one side of the cab (or angle the cab away from you), it will immediately sound much better.

 

I.e.: You should probably use a combination of direct mics and room mics to catch the sound.

 

If you use older, 4-input Marshalls you should also bridge the two channels and control the overall EQ via the two individual channel volumes.

 

G.

[doc taz]

Originally posted by Dennyf:

You have to say it at least three times. Remember, you're asking guitar players. And your first post won't count.

 

Actually, at the risk of being shunned by the rest of the community, I've had much the same experience every time I've been amp shopping, which is why I don't own a Marshall. If amps were singers, Marshalls would be Axl Rose. Good in their own right, but ya gotta dig that adenoidal quality.

 

But out of the other side of my mouth (so to type), most of my favorite recorded guitar tones are from Marshalls.

Yep. I can name so many...

*Jeff Beck

*Obituary (jcm 800 + rat II pedal combo was particularly thick and dense)

*Morbid Angel (same as Obituary, but more Marshally sounding, though they now prefer 900's)

*Prong (they've used everything from 800's to the MG's)

 

I'd write more, but I got to make some dinnah soon... hope to be on that long list someday!

[coyote]

This is a good point. Recording is a different ballgame than live sound... Marshalls DO record better from across the room.

Originally posted by Gunnar:

However, if you place the cab on the floor and move 5-6 ft. out to one side of the cab (or angle the cab away from you), it will immediately sound much better.

G.

[g.]

I've never had much problem getting a good live sound from them that sits in the mix just so when it needs to and jumps out when that's the intention. It's pretty much put a 57 directly between the center and edge of the cone 2 to 3 inches off the grill cloth, get a check, and tilt it off axis to suit.

 

Shouldn't be that tough to record either. That's one of the good things about them with typical closed 412 cabs. They have some tightness to the bass that doesn't eat up so much sonic space that you'd have to clear away anyway to make room for the bass and drums...

[DP3]

Personaly I like thick, ballsy , rich guitar sounds. Like what Limp Biscut had at the tribute to Metallica show last year. That sound was incredible.

 

Don't mean any disrespect to you Marshall guys out there. Like I said i'm not a guitar guy. Thanks Gunner for the tip. Next time I get one of those in here i'll try that mic placement.

[Blue Strat]

I've got a Peavey Delta Blues that sounds like utter Dawg-SHITE to my ears when I'm in the same room, but when I mic it and listen through headphones it actually sounds pretty good. I guess the moral of my story is: don't look a gift amp in the grill.

[g.]

That's a great amp for vintage 50s blues sounds - including bottleneck. I'd look to the guitar [pickups], the settings, or your hands ; } - if you aren't getting the authentic vibe of those sounds.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by greenboy:

That's a great amp for vintage 50s blues sounds - including bottleneck. I'd look to the guitar [pickups], the settings, or your hands ; } - if you aren't getting the authentic vibe of those sounds.

It's great when I play clean (or crank up the clean channel) but the OD channel is terrible.

[g.]

Sorry. Got to disagree. If you want that gritty breakup that practically calls for a harp player like James Musslewhite or James Cotton, that amp is killer. Either the 15" version or the 10"s version is right up that alley.

 

Maybe you got the wrong amp for the job it is you want to do.

[phaeton]

I'm going to have to ditto both noodlesbad and dennyf...

 

I can sit here and name all my favourite albums from 1970s blues and progressive hard rock to 1990s thrashmetal. There are a few Mesa Boogies or Hiwatts thrown in there, but about 90% of that is wall-to-wall Marshall in one form or another. Live, studio, and everything in between. Guitar tones to die for. I yearn for that type of sound.

 

Yet, every time i play a Marshall all i can get it to do is rattle and fart. Seriously. Someone can squeeze great sound out of a stack, then hand the guitar to me and it sounds like ass. Though some of the DSLs and TSLs and later Valvestates are especially bad for me, I've basically chalked it up to the fact that Marshalls don't like me.

 

They're great amps in their own right, and they can sing, but not for me. I can plug into Mesas and Fenders and Peaveys and melt the room with goodness, but all the knob tweaking, all the switch flipping and careful technique will not make a Marshall work for me.

 

Bottom line though, DP3- Fantasticsound knows his cookies and he wouldn't b.s. you. No, none of us are there in your studio to hear what you are describing first hand. But do you hear this in other recordings (not yours)?

Maybe the guitar sound that is "in" right now is something you just don't like. That happens. I hate just about every Fuzz Box on the planet. Ask Lee Flier about Chorus Pedals.

 

If the band that you're recording doesn't hear this, maybe it's just "their sound" whether you agree with it or not. Is it just that you don't like this sound, or is it an actual problem in the mix?

 

btw, please don't get discouraged by some of the responses you've gotten so far. We really are nice people round here, and we'd like you to stay

[g.]

Until fairly recently, I liked Fender-TYPE combos better, with open back cabs. But working with a guitarist who uses a slant 412 under a JCM all tube 100 watt combo has been a good experience. The stage sound has really tightened up at the same time it's richer than what I've been experiencing with the pastr couple of guitarists. The cab is largely responsible for a lusher and wider image without the mike-leaking out-of-phase mush that an open back often seems to contribute to on a smaller stage.

 

And he player is using the amp and his guitars well to get a tone I like for a variety of material - some not traditionally assocaieted with Marshalls. So its the player too.

 

But I am starting to think I like infinite baffle cabs better regardless of what head is being used.