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Are rappers musicians?


Gifthorse

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I say no. I am not minimizing thier contribution but isn't music a combination of rythmn AND melody? When I listen to kids crankin up thier tunes so loud that the ground shakes around thier car and it is some guy talking about smackin da bitches in da hood with a sequenced loop underneath, I hardly think music. I think they are poets who like to sell IMAGE--(I'm cool, I'm rich, I have a big ** and get all the bitches) over a sequenced loop. I know plenty of guys who would argue this. It makes me sad to hear guys in thier 20's and 30's who ONLY listen to this stuff. It is like they don't really understand the idea of melody or music. When they are in thier 40's and they have kids of thier own are they going to play rap for thier kids? Are they going to talk along about the bitch whos lickin nutz like stamps? I am not saying it is all garbage, I just get annoyed when I hear rappers or other people referring to them as 'musicians'. Music requires a melody in my mind. We all have worked hard to become musicians. I am not sayin these guys havent worked hard too, all I am saying is that they have worked hard to write lyrics and talk to the rythmn. That seems different than playing something on an instrument and singing a melody.

 

I know some would say that is apples and oranges

 

I would say it is apples and...brussel sprouts?

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Rap, as with most modern forms of music, suffers from a growing percentage of poor quality material. For every 500 shitty rap artists, there are 2 or 3 great ones. The same ratio can be set for rock and pop.

 

They may not be heard every day, but there are artsits in EVERY genre who take it into new and ineteresting musical directions. There IS melodic rap/hip hop out there; whether it gets a lot of airplay is another story.

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I'd not call every guitarist a musician. that out of the way, I'd say some rappers could be musicians even if they don't play an instrument or even "sing" in any traditional sense. I think even in what appears to be a lack of melody there still exists pitch and some melodic sense that if it were not there would sound worse. Many guys are monotone in their delivery and it weakens their overall performance.

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Originally posted by revolead:

They make bad poetry; they don't make music at all.

I dunno . . . . I'm far from a fan of this genre. When I don't like something, I try harder not to be unfair to it.

 

Some think this is the modern urban equivalent to the field hollers which became blues and gospel. It's kind of ironic that Outkast has evolved the blues into something more musical.

 

It could be argued that the slight variations in the tone of the vocal lines make those lines a melody.

 

I dunno . . . I'd be curious to know what someone with a PhD in music would have to say about this topic.

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I totally dislike rap, but if someone wants to listen to it, and immerse themself in rap culture, thats fine by me. I take the opposite route, long shaggy hair, hippish clothes, but thats me. I'm strange to them, they are strange to me.

 

As for the music, or lack there of as it most often, I'd rather chew on some tin foil or somethin. BUUUT, for anyone saying that all rap is not music, listen to The Roots. The only rap I was every slightly interested in. They all play their own instruments, and their beat-box/turntable noisemaking dude is cool.

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Can't stand the stuff. I'll be glad when this style becomes "uncool". I will gladly welcome ANYTHING over this stuff. Strictly my opinion, but I think this stuff is so far from music we should call it golfing. Any three year old with a set of pots and pans can bang out a beat. Give them a computer and it's even easier. Generally, they "Sing" out of time with it, and seem to have no sense of rhythm at all.

 

Can they write lyrics? I suppose so, in the same way that Howard Stern hosts radio.

 

I would not call it music.

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Originally posted by Vinny C:

Originally posted by revolead:

They make bad poetry; they don't make music at all.

Some think this is the modern urban equivalent to the field hollers which became blues and gospel. It's kind of ironic that Outkast has evolved the blues into something more musical.

 

It could be argued that the slight variations in the tone of the vocal lines make those lines a melody.

 

I dunno . . . I'd be curious to know what someone with a PhD in music would have to say about this topic.

Comparing blues to rap is a bad argument. Even pop music, meaning Britney Spears, which I hate as much as Eminem or Ja Rule, has notes. Even if there are three notes, it still has a melody. When I listen to rap, I hear a guy talking, and some drums. To me, drums never equated music, and neither does just rhythm. To make music in my mind, you have to have melody and rhythm.

 

"The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre."
Dictionary
Shut up and play.
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Rap, as with most modern forms of music, suffers from a growing percentage of poor quality material. For every 500 shitty rap artists, there are 2 or 3 great ones. The same ratio can be set for rock and pop.
I agree that corporate America has slowly but surely destroyed pop music and yes there are like 3 good bands to every 100. I am sure that is true with Rap also.

 

I am simply stating that rap isn't music. Is there a point when music isn't subjective?

 

It may be something people enjoy listening to but

that doesn't make it music. Music has MELODY and RYTHMN. That is true. If in the future someone records their farts and it catches on, and everyone is listening to 'fartists', then does that make them musicians?

 

Music is a form of art, so is rap. I would rather people referred to them as 'recording artists' and not musicians.

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Originally posted by flagshipmile:

I say no. I am not minimizing thier contribution but isn't music a combination of rythmn AND melody?

I understand what you're saying, but I think you're wrong. First, you'd have to throw out at least half of non-European music. This means the Taiko (sp?) drumming of Japan, African Tribal beats, certain South American forms of music, etc. Remember, the first instruments were percussion.

 

Second, if you look at rock 'n' roll vs. what came before, that was a drastic step down too. Rock and roll is nowhere near as complex harmonically as "classical" or jazz music. And that's not a bad thing either.

 

Third, there is a melodic content to an MC's rap. It's just very subtle.

 

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

When I listen to kids crankin up thier tunes so loud that the ground shakes around thier car

What the hell does that have to do with aural content? Last I checked, music is defined by the ears and not the eyes.

 

Again, look at the jazzers and symphonies vs... oh... let's say LITTLE RICHARD if you want to talk visuals. Or let's talk about Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis in the lifestyle departments. Or Freddie Mercury...

 

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

It makes me sad to hear guys in thier 20's and 30's who ONLY listen to this stuff. It is like they don't really understand the idea of melody or music.

[sarcasm]

It makes me sad to hears these guys in their 30s, 40s, and 50s who ONLY listen to this classic rock stuff like Steely Dan, Foreigner, Journey, and Boston. It is like they don't really understand the ideas of power, energy, mirth, being wild and crazy, and/or the fun of punk rock.

[/sarcasm]

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OK, so your saying music is completely without definition? Then Poets are musicians. I am not disregarding anything. I am simply stating that melody is a defining feature of 'music'. I didn't question the validity of Elvis to Rachmoninoff. Both of them are carrying a melody. I am not saying that Indian music based on the quarter tone isn't music because it doesn't fit into the scope of western music. Drums are a part of music. 1 half.

 

If a rapper doesn't have any accompaniment is he a musician or a poet?

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A. As for the "my bitch and my Escalade" content of pop rap these days, it's NO different from the old blues guys. Ever listen to their lyrics? How Son House and Robert Johnson sang about women? Flashy cars and "ice"? Elvis had a gold-plated Cadillac! Want to hear someone brag? Listen to Muddy Waters. These themes have existed in American popular and folk music since the 1800s. I think people are just uncomfortable seeing young black men using them (again).

 

B. There's PLENTY of music around the world that does not have "melody" as defined by Westerners. Especially in Africa where in a lot of cases the rhythm IS the melody. This carries over to rap (which as Vinny C. pointed out is directly descended from field hollers and blues).

 

Listen to a good rap tune and you'll hear a lot of complicated syncopation from both the musical background and the vocals. Most "melodic" music does not have this level of rhythmic complexity. To those raised with set expectations of melody and rhythm, this can sound basic on the surface. And there are plenty of shitty rappers and producers who DON'T do anything interesting rhythmically.

 

Listen to Eric B. and Rakim's "Follow the Leader" for a good lesson in rap virtuosity. Or listen to Public Enemy's "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back" for incredibly complex rap production.

 

For something more recent, check out "99 Problems" by Jay-Z. That's not just "a guy talking, and some drums".

 

You don't have to like it but it IS music.

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I'm indifferent to black or white in the regard that you mentioned. I disagree that they are the same as Muddy Waters or Elvis. They were musicians not only poets. As for judging thier work and being tainted by thier skin color that isn't true with me at all. Stevie Wonder is one of my personal gods. He is ridiculous. Produced, played drums, keyboard, harmonica, sang, and composed. Innervisions is a masterpiece. I am not minimizing the ability of some rappers. I know that it takes a certain type of talent. I just don't consider a rapper a musician. As I said before, if you take away the accompaniment and the rapper is alone, he is just a poet. You take away that and you have Stevie Wonder, you have a musician. I am not saying rappers can't be musical, I am just saying they aren't musicians. Its a matter of opinion apparently.
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As with any genre, there's the good stuff and then the rest. Simply saying that Hip Hop's not music, is simply ignorant. It takes some serious skills to be a good rapper. The timing, the inflections, all are part of what we call music. Granted, not all of it is good, but it definitely qualifies. Most of the comments I'm reading come from individuals who either don't listen to it, or don't understand the genre. Most of you guys will never understand why somebody would want to wear a baseball cap to the side, or why would someone would wear clothes 5 sizes too big, but like the bible says: you must be in the spirit to understand the spirit. My 2 cents.
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Originally posted by flagshipmile:

OK, so your saying music is completely without definition? Then Poets are musicians. I am not disregarding anything. I am simply stating that melody is a defining feature of 'music'.

I'm not saying it's without definition. What I'm saying is that melody is not a defining feature of music. No matter your opinion on drum solos, ;) one to an infinite number of drummers is still performing music. "Moby Dick" is music to me at least.

 

Furthermore, I'm going to reinstate, that yes, there is a melodic content to rapping as there is in every day speech. It's more subtle in English, than say Mandarin, but it's still there.

 

Back to your question, the best definition for music I ever heard was: "organized sound along a time axis". Which works. Because 4'33" is not music, but the soundtrack to the Planet of the Apes (original) is, no matter how grating it is alone.

 

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

If a rapper doesn't have any accompaniment is he a musician or a poet?

A poet alone is not a musician. This much is true. (S)he only writes.

 

Is acappella hip-hop just poetry performance? Interesting question. However, I don't know enough about poetry performance to go further.

 

Of course this raises the question of "Why isn't poetry performance considered music?"

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Would you consider a singer a musician? According to the dictionary, a musician is: One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music. Rappers definitely compose and perform music with their given instrument: their voice. It's different, but they have to go through the same process any other artist go through. They must practice their craft, and become proficient at it. Not all of it will be good, heck, I can't even listen to a lot of it because it's not worth listening to. But, there's definitely a certain amount of God given talent, and skills that go into being a good rapper, a good turntablist....a good musician. My 2 cents.
What am I doing tonight? Samething I do every night: TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!
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Back to your question, the best definition for music I ever heard was: "organized sound along a time axis". Which works. Because 4'33" is not music, but the soundtrack to the Planet of the Apes (original) is, no matter how grating it is alone.
I assume you refer to John Cage here. I don't consider the modern concepts of music actually music. I never got into the whole abstract realm of these guys, and I studied it in music appreciation/history. It just didn't sit with me. I forget some of the terms invloved with it, but I didn't like any of them.
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Rappers definitely compose and perform music with their given instrument: their voice. It's different, but they have to go through the same process any other artist go through. They must practice their craft, and become proficient at it. Not all of it will be good, heck, I can't even listen to a lot of it because it's not worth listening to. But, there's definitely a certain amount of God given talent, and skills that go into being a good rapper, a good turntablist....a good musician. My 2 cents.

Would you go so far as to say a rapper that also composes the music underneath is a musician, but the guy who doesn't isn't? Otherwise everything is blurred and the question of poet or musician looms. I am not trying to be ignorant or narrow, I am simply trying to assertain a certain value check to qualify a musician. Personally I don't think a rapper is a musician unless he or she is composing the music underneath, just like if I did a car commercial and used 'Born to Be wild' under the narration I wouldn't be a musician, even if I chose to use it and directed it and did the voice overs. I think rappers should at least give enough credit to the musicians to acknowledge this.
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Musicians'd probably do better to take care of their own musicianship and come up with some meaningful strategies (the internet is still arguably a useful tool against the media conglomerates that tool up what entertaiment gets the big push) and worry about what the PUBLIC thinks - rather than worry about the Naming of it or what they themselves want to believe. All the dousing and grousing in the world doesn't turn back the clock.
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I think it totally depends on the person. There is a lot of crap out there - the stuff on MTV, mainly. However, there are, out there, a lot of rappers who arent all about their posse, aren't all about the fame... they're expressing themselves. They're out there to express their ideas and opinions through rap. These people kind of make it more like "spoken word" than rap. In a sense that - it's about the words, the lyrics, the meaning. Then there are artists that mix the best of both worlds - as someone mentioned - Outkast, Eminem, etc.

 

Artists like "The Streets" - I really REALLY have respect for. That man, is a man who has a real talent for explaining things HOW HE SEES IT. And makes you feel what he's feeling, if you really listen.

 

But meh. Enough. :P I dont mind some rap. I can't stand that popular - "Come rock wid me hunny we gonna bam bam till the nites ova come to mah pad uh uh yeah yeah money bitchez and cheese!"

"Money, Bitchez and Cheese!"

 

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"I never thought about it, and I never stopped to feel -

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Originally posted by   :

Are turntablists?

sure :rolleyes: , and the guy that hangs up the pictures in the museum is an artist, especially if he cuts up the paintings and mixes up the pieces
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I'm no rap fan. But let's be mature, fair and objective and get to the heart of the matter.

 

We must first ask ourselves, what defines a musician? Not what we think a musician is , but rather the official definition of a musician. Let's see how Webster defines "musician":

 

a composer, conductor, or performer of music
Now we must define "music":

 

1b: vocal , instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm , melody, or harmony

Thus, a rap artist is defined as a musician.

 

Emphasis mine

 

Peace :)

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Much as I am loathe to say this, yes, I'd have to say they are musician's, the same as Britney and Justin are.

 

Just doesn't mean they are any good, it's a very lazy way of doing it. Still, whatever turns you on, personally I like a little variety and couldn't handle a whole album of the same 2 second beat repeated to infinity with someone talking over it (whether it be about smcking up their ho's or some deep social issue, the "music" is still dull to me)....

 

Calling a DJ or turtablist a musician is a tough one. I'm all for trying to find ways to use new sounds (all instruments had to be invented at some point), but there has to come a point when you realise it sounds $h!te and is time to go try something else :D

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Originally posted by flagshipmil

 

...but isn't music a combination of rythmn AND melody?

_________________________

 

According to Webster... or melody.

"Treat your wife with honor, respect, and understanding as you live together so that you can pray effectively as husband and wife." 1 Peter 3:7

 

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