Are rappers musicians?

[BiC]

Originally posted by revolead:

 

"The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre."

______________________

 

Do not leave out definition #2 below it:

 

Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm .

[BiC]

You'd also be surprised to know that "rapper" is in the dictionary as well:

 

a performer of rap music

We've already defined music, which in turn defines musician. So, I don't need to go there.

[Base]

Is the kid who can't do anything else so plays the triangle in the school band less of a musician than the one playing the violin solo??

 

No, they are just less talented.

 

So it is with rappers, turtablists, etc...

 

They are as much musicians as Hendrix, Vaughn, Clapton, etc....

 

They just suck

 

Ok, that's keyboard players, bass players, drummers, rap/hip-hop/misc. offended, who are we taking on next????

[BiC]

Originally posted by Base:

 

Ok, that's keyboard players, bass players, drummers, rap/hip-hop/misc. offended, who are we taking on next????

___________________________

 

Maybe we should take a long, hard look at ourselves since we love pointing fingers?

 

Peace

[Dave da Dude]

Some very interesting points made here

 

Those of you who were around when I asked a (kinda') similar question, know my opinion of Hip-Hop and Rap (not good, but some decent stuff out there).

 

My *definitions*;

 

A musician is a person who has studied music (whether in a *school* or at home), whose talent and expertise can vary widely and *creates* music.

 

A performing artist may or may not have studied music. He/she performs, whether it be vocal, guitar , piano, drums or (gasp) turntable.

 

One does not have to be one to be the other.

 

Example; Eric Clapton is a great performing (guitar) artist. He is also a musician, but (maybe) seldom exercises that talent anymore. I am also a (not very often) performing (guitar) artist, but not NEARLY as good as EC and most definetly not a musician (or at the very most, a very poor one).

 

'Ya know, this (my definitions) was tuffer than I thought it would be But I do kinda' agree with the differentiation between a *musician* and a *performing artist*.

 

I'm a gonna hav 'ta go and ponder a bit on this one

[Chris.]

forgive me if i double up on comments here, but i just had to post on this topic before i go out just now.. haven't got time right this moment to read the thread (v.rude, sorry!)i'll read the previouses later.

 

I hate gangster rap, or mainly what they tend to go on about. but then i love like.. groove armada, and ninja tunes who always use hip hop beats, but with sorta jazzy feel..

 

anyway my point is to say that i was in a band where the lead guy was an MC.. which is a rapper but more of a UK vibe, urban london or manchester sort of vibe.

 

I am so, so impressed with the ability this guy had to be able to imporovise lyrics which have an individual beat to each line, which rhyme in a comical way about things which are happening in the room at the time.

He isn't a musician in the sense that he couldn't play a note on any instrument, but he knew what sounded good!

 

If you sat me down with a pad and pencil, i wouldn't be able to come up with anything close if you gave me 10 years, and yet i call myself a musician. so these guys must be on about something.

 

so many of these gangster rappers have this ability too, but its probably only appreciated in a live environment.

[Gabriel E.]

Also recommended listening:

 

"Jazzmatazz" by GURU. This is a jazz/hip hop record that came out back in the early 90s. Donald Byrd and Roy Ayers are among the people who play on it.

[Darklava]

Musicians

[Billster]

I'm going to say they are. The rhythmic subtlety is great. The "melodic" content of a rap may be virtually non existent, but a good rapper has a lot of skill with vocal inflection, just as a good singer does.

 

I do agree with the others comments that there is a lot of BAD rap going on, and that makes it seem there is no skill required to attain notoriety as a rapper.

 

Originally posted by revolead:

"The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre."

Dictionary

That definition says "as with" NOT "and must include". You can arrange in time the sounds of automobiles, trains, and airplanes, and create a continuous, unified and evocative composition. It just doesn't have a tonal melody, the melody comes from other aspects of the sound. Think Indonesian Gamelan music!

 

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Originally posted by flagshipmile:posted 09-21-2004 06:58 PM

I say no. I am not minimizing thier contribution but isn't music a combination of rythmn AND melody? When I listen to kids crankin up thier tunes so loud that the ground shakes around thier car and it is some guy talking about smackin da bitches in da hood with a sequenced loop underneath, I hardly think music.

Originally posted by flagshipmile:posted 09-21-2004 11:13 PM

Never said hip hop wasn't music. I said rappers weren't musicians.

OOOOOPS!

[revolead]

Okay, I think we need to establish a few ground rules in this discussion.

 

1. Race is not an issue. I don't care about the color of your skin. Eminem will be considered on an equal platform with Jay Z and Dr. Dre.

 

2. Sociopolitical issues are not of concern either. I know rap almost always brings up a hellstorm of issues, such as the effect of sex and drugs on children and teens, but that is another discussion. We're talking about whether or not rap is music. Not whether or not rap is indeed the bane of all productivity or whatnot.

 

Having said that, the inferno can resume.

[A String]

Originally posted by revolead:

Okay, I think we need to establish a few ground rules in this discussion.

 

1. Race is not an issue. I don't care about the color of your skin. Eminem will be considered on an equal platform with Jay Z and Dr. Dre.

 

2. Sociopolitical issues are not of concern either. I know rap almost always brings up a hellstorm of issues, such as the effect of sex and drugs on children and teens, but that is another discussion. We're talking about whether or not rap is music. Not whether or not rap is indeed the bane of all productivity or whatnot.

 

Having said that, the inferno can resume.

Yes, I made my dislike of rap quite clear. I suppose I should make it equally clear that my dislike in no way is reflective of my feelings towards the artists themselves or those who choose to listen to it.

 

I find the stuff to lack any musical ability at all. Most of the "Musical" part of it is written and preformed by a computer. However, as Dave said, I would qualify rappers as "performing artist". We used to run a jam night years ago and we had a very talented "free Style" rapper get up on stage. He was amazingly talented but not a musician in my books.

[Gabriel E.]

Originally posted by revolead:

Okay, I think we need to establish a few ground rules in this discussion.

 

1. Race is not an issue. I don't care about the color of your skin. Eminem will be considered on an equal platform with Jay Z and Dr. Dre.

 

2. Sociopolitical issues are not of concern either. I know rap almost always brings up a hellstorm of issues, such as the effect of sex and drugs on children and teens, but that is another discussion. We're talking about whether or not rap is music. Not whether or not rap is indeed the bane of all productivity or whatnot.

 

Having said that, the inferno can resume.

Well. . . I think sociopolitical issues are fare game since they were mentioned in the original post. Race goes hand in hand with that since rap has received a disproportianate amount of criticism in the media for "negative themes". Ice T got shut down for portraying a cop killer in one of his songs and Arnold Schwartzenegger who portrayed a cop killer onscreen got elected Governor. No one freaked out when the Rolling Stones did "Bitch" or "Under My Thumb" or any of their other "mysoginistic" material.

 

Regardless, I don't think it does anybody any good to try to categorize art. Once it's been categorized, it's more difficult to cross-utilize references and everything gets stale. You end up with Clear Channel-style narrowcasting.

[Big Red 67]

Zappa wasn't considered a muscian by many. Some still don't see him as a musician, but a comedian who used music. I guess it depends on the tastes and background of the person making the statement. Some of his note choices were definately strange. He made me look at music very differently.

[g.]

Anyone who didn't consider Zappa a musician was just waging war with retoric. Because Zappa qualified under several different sets of criteria. Criteria that are sadly not considered too important to many "musicians" or "artists" in the industry today - let alone rappers - but nontheless, have been considered marks of musicianship in the past ; }

[Darklava]

Originally posted by Big Red 67:

Zappa wasn't considered a muscian by many. Some still don't see him as a musician, but a comedian who used music. I guess it depends on the tastes and background of the person making the statement. Some of his note choices were definately strange. He made me look at music very differently.

Zappa not a musician.....wow I never heard that

before.

[Big Red 67]

Back in the day Zappa was shunned by the classical peoples. Strongly shunned. He stuck to it and proved them wrong. Does anyone see a rapper who could do that out there?

[g.]

As far as I'm concerned there are a fair number of rappers out there who are just as much musicians as a fair number of popular vocalists out there. That is to say, THEY ARE ENTERTAINERS ; } ...Actually, and someone has argued similarly, some of them excercise more skill than a lot of vocalists, and in some areas many vocalists are pretty weak in. {I won't even extend this resoning to the many apparent barre/power-chord/pentatonic only guitarists out there ; }

 

This has nothing to do with whether I think rap is good or bad, or should it be judged on an artist by artist basis. And anyway: I think the question should be recast, since much of the bias seems to originate from the fact that many rappers are not working with live musicians... I think that's where a lot of the dislike arises from.

 

Also, I'll underline this once again: what you or I think doesn't matter ultimately - except as a very small portion of the consuming public. What label we choose to give it changes nothing for the better, and may even give it a very slight impetus in the market.

[Gifthorse]

I'm no rap fan. But let's be mature, fair and objective and get to the heart of the matter.

 

We must first ask ourselves, what defines a musician? Not what we think a musician is , but rather the official definition of a musician. Let's see how Webster defines "musician":

 

quote:

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a composer, conductor, or performer of music

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Now we must define "music":

 

quote:

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1b: vocal , instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm , melody, or harmony

OK but if you use that as a criteria then a poet is also a musician because he or she is arranging words in a certain meter that exhibits rythmn.. I still stick to my theory that rappers are musicians when they compose the music underneath. Otherwise they are poets, producers and recording 'artists'.

 

I remember about 10 years ago this guy I knew played me this guy named 'Steven Jesse Bernstein'. He was some crazy guy in prison that was supposedly a poet. Anyways they arranged his weirdo poems together and put music underneath them. The result was pretty fuckin funny. Anyways, I can say that he WASN'T a musician, but using the logic that has been illistrated by some, he is a musician.. I know there are plenty of great rappers out there that are very talented. I used to live with a guy who was a great rapper. He wasn't a musician though. He would sit in his room for hours and write down his lyrics though. He cared alot about the lyrics and poems. He couldn't play any music though or sing to save his life.

[Big Red 67]

Here is a interesting take. In some places in the world professional musicians are looked down on and amateurs are held in high regard.

[revolead]

I still don't see how you guys can call this music. Even radical concepts like serialism are music, and to me they still sound like crap. But rap, by my definition of music, something containing both melody and rhythm, is not music. Now, I realize I am not the authoritative expert on music, and for me to generalize a definition is probably rather egoistic of me. But, I think since this question has basically come down to an opinion, we are all entitled to what entails music.

 

If music can be just rhythm, i.e. timed noise, then I agree rap by definition has to be music, even if it's bad.

 

However I never saw human speech as containing melody, and therefore if we use the definition given by music containing melody and rhythm, rap is not music, merely poetry.

[Billster]

Originally posted by revolead:

However I never saw human speech as containing melody, and therefore if we use the definition given by music containing melody and rhythm, rap is not music, merely poetry.

Check out Zappa's "Man From Utopia" with two songs called "The Dangerous Kitchen" and "Jazz Discharge Party Hats", and then Steve Vai's "So Happy"

 

Warning: "So Happy" is pretty f----d up (but in a good way

[Big Red 67]

Or "Why does it hurt when I pee?" and "Stevie's Spanking". Jazz from hell the whole album!

[Nollykin]

Originally posted by revolead:

I still don't see how you guys can call this music. Even radical concepts like serialism are music, and to me they still sound like crap. But rap, by my definition of music, something containing both melody and rhythm, is not music. Now, I realize I am not the authoritative expert on music, and for me to generalize a definition is probably rather egoistic of me. But, I think since this question has basically come down to an opinion, we are all entitled to what entails music.

 

If music can be just rhythm, i.e. timed noise, then I agree rap by definition has to be music, even if it's bad.

 

However I never saw human speech as containing melody, and therefore if we use the definition given by music containing melody and rhythm, rap is not music, merely poetry.

I dunno man - Going to say that human speech is musical is a little far (although, it has been said before - and I personally take a lot of "Spoken word" to be quite ... almost musical) - but nonetheless... I dunno man, I find most things musical.

 

"What is music?" - Are we going to go to a dictionary every time this question is asked?

 

Music is - in my opinion - Whatever sounds musical. Something entirely rythm orientated can sound amazing, as can something with nothing but melody. I heard some recordings of Tibetan Monks doing chanting in melody with no percieved rythm, and it was truly amazing. As is when you walk down your local mall and see a group of four of five african men banging on drums. That's amazing also. Rapping is, and will always be considered, a form of music. The guys may not play "Musical instruments" - but as someone mentioned earlier - their improvisation techniques can better most of ours threefold.

 

Now I don't want to seem standoffish here (but I guess I do ), but I kinda find some of your (and others) comments quite... Elitist. Just because someone does not play a guitar or keyboard does not mean they are not musicians. Music comes from the HEART. it comes from the SOUL. You know how I found out I was a musician? I just *KNEW*. I Just knew it... it dropped out of nowhere.

 

I think people (not you, I'm now generalising) these days get so caught up in definitions, contracts, validations, the fine print - to just sit back, and be taken away by things like music. I tell you - I have been moved emotionally just as strongly by some rap artists (namely The Streets - with songs such as "Dry Your Eyes") as other, 'more powerful' fully orchestral scores.

 

Sorry - I'm being rather rude - but it was mainly your comment [qb]by my definition of music, something containing both melody and rhythm, is not music. [qb] - That's fine... And yeah, I guess I understand that. By your definition - no, it's not. But I'll tell you what, Your definition of music is very different to mine, and many others. If you take that into consideration - you'll begin to understand why we feel how we do.

 

Nolly

 

(I apologise if I offend you.... It's not my intention. Its early in the morning... I am tired )

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by revolead:

I still don't see how you guys can call this music. Even radical concepts like serialism are music, and to me they still sound like crap. But rap, by my definition of music, something containing both melody and rhythm, is not music. Now, I realize I am not the authoritative expert on music, and for me to generalize a definition is probably rather egoistic of me. But, I think since this question has basically come down to an opinion, we are all entitled to what entails music.

 

If music can be just rhythm, i.e. timed noise, then I agree rap by definition has to be music, even if it's bad.

 

However I never saw human speech as containing melody, and therefore if we use the definition given by music containing melody and rhythm, rap is not music, merely poetry.

If you define music as something which contains both melody and rhythm, that's fine.

 

But where did you get the idea that rap has no melody? You must either be listening to the wrong rap, or you're just not listening closely enough.

[revolead]

But where did you get the idea that rap has no melody? You must either be listening to the wrong rap, or you're just not listening closely enough.

I don't hear a melody. So maybe I am listenting to the wrong rap. I'm not going to take the time to explore any further just because I know I hate the genre.

 

I think hip hop has offered some interesting beats to music, and my favorite band, Papa Roach does use some of it's elements. There's also a Faith Hill song I like that has a hip hop backbeat, so I'm not regretting the influence of the music, but I still do not like the genre itself.

[Gabriel E.]

Originally posted by revolead:

I'm not going to take the time to explore any further just because I know I hate the genre.

You pretty much just disqualified everything you've said so far.

 

If you're not going to take the time to learn about the subject that you have been so eager to classify, then you need to stop participating in this discussion.

 

I can't stand intellectual laziness - Especially in conjunction with strong opinions.

 

Whether or not you like rap is totally up to you and is irrelevant to the discussion. But if you're unwilling to learn anything more about it than the little you know, you don't have the right to judge its musical merit.

[Billster]

Originally posted by revolead:

I'm not going to take the time to explore any further just because I know I hate the genre.

I agree with Gabriel after that comment. If you only have small exposure, how do you write off the category?

 

If somebody played you some fucked up bootleg of Hendrix at his doped out worst, would you write off looking further into Hendrix's music, no matter if a large population said there was worth in it?

 

Find a fan, and have them point you to the good stuff.

[Afro_Man]

Listen to outcast, who re-defined the rap and hip hop genre, and mr M+M (i know its not spelt like that) hes very talented lyrically, go listen to old school hip hop/rap like public enemy (it takes a nation of thousands to hold us back) and maybe some dr dre, some of its good and some of its dire, you'll just have to shift through and find the good stuff.

If you feel like a good giggle then check out goldie lookin chain, a rap collective from newport, wales.

[Big Red 67]

The hay ya thing is a major chord progression with a penatonic vocal line over it. That is musically intreresting to me.

[revolead]

Originally posted by billster:

Originally posted by revolead:

I'm not going to take the time to explore any further just because I know I hate the genre.

I agree with Gabriel after that comment. If you only have small exposure, how do you write off the category?

 

If somebody played you some fucked up bootleg of Hendrix at his doped out worst, would you write off looking further into Hendrix's music, no matter if a large population said there was worth in it?

 

Find a fan, and have them point you to the good stuff.

Look, I heard the crap all the time on the radio, I didn't like any of it. Someone brought in some underground rap for a class project, it was better than the mainstream junk, but it's not my taste. Why is it your job to force me to listen to something I don't like? You don't force me to eat asparagus. Don't force me to listen to rap.