Hitting a clean D/C#

[LiveMusic]

I have a new Carvin Cobalt 780 acoustic. Just got it yesterday. VERY nice guitar. Very well made and plays really great. I have been shopping lately. One way I tell if a guitar plays well for me is if I can barre an F-chord and have it really clean, that's a good sign. The Dean I was looking at did and this Cobalt, yep.

 

I _always_ have trouble with this -- making a descending progression while finger picking. From D to D/C#, then D/B, then D/A. The D/C#, for some reason, I never get a clean sound out of that. I think it goes a bit sharp, plus, the D-string, I tend to accidently mute it. However, just recently, during my shopping around, I noted a guitar that is was clean as can be. I'm not sure but pretty sure it was a Dean that I was eyeing. Very nice guitar as well.

 

But, the Carvin seems to be bit better guitar than the Dean, although it's close and I'm not comparing them side by side. But one thing I cannot do... again, the D/C#, it's not clean and I have tried to "fix it" by watching my fingering but I still can't clean it up. It's just not crisp and clean. I have short fingers, so, that doesn't help. Even my Taylor, I could not play it clean as I wanted.

 

Last week, I bought a Takamine, a cheaper one, as a backup guitar and same "problem."

 

Any ideas or comments? I need to go see if I can find that guitar where I _could_ play it clean and see just how good it was versus this Carvin.

[revolead]

Don't call me any expert, but it's my opinion that because C# is only a half step away from D, it probably wouldn't be a nice sounding interval on any guitar, unless the C# is several steps away from the first D. For example a C# D A D F# probably won't sound very good. However, if you're playing a D/C#, which to me sounds like you're playing C# A D F#, things might change. I tried that chord on my acoustic, and it does sound a bit distorted, but again it might be the nature of the quasi-inverted Dmaj7. Aside from that I'm not sure. Again, these are my thoughts, but I may very well be talking out of my ass.

[Jedro]

Revo, I think what Livemusic is referring to is a descending bass line and the cleanliness with which he can/can't execute it.... I agree with the possible dissonance-a C# against a D can be ugly.... Anyway, I would venture a guess that if you are having problems playing something and switching to a better, more comfortable instrument doesn't help, you may need to troubleshoot on your technique.

 

BTW, a D/C# is a DMaj7 3rd inversion.

[LiveMusic]

Originally posted by revolead:

Don't call me any expert, but it's my opinion that because C# is only a half step away from D, it probably wouldn't be a nice sounding interval on any guitar, unless the C# is several steps away from the first D. For example a C# D A D F# probably won't sound very good. However, if you're playing a D/C#, which to me sounds like you're playing C# A D F#, things might change. I tried that chord on my acoustic, and it does sound a bit distorted, but again it might be the nature of the quasi-inverted Dmaj7. Aside from that I'm not sure. Again, these are my thoughts, but I may very well be talking out of my ass.

Maybe I didn't notate right but it's a very common stepdown pattern. It's not that you are playing a D chord with a C# in the bass, which would be D/C#... so, perhaps I notated it wrong. It's that you are playing a D-chord and (fingerstyle), you strike the C# note as a bass note. Then then next bass note is B and then A. It's very common.

 

Point is, the C# note is not clean. Plus, I tend the mute the D-string inadvertently. Result, it's not clean. Except on that one guitar I played recently that I mentioned. And I don't know why it would be "good" and others are not. Perhaps it is narrower at the nut or a slimmer neck or something... allowing my shorter fingers to have a longer reach. Although, I kinda doubt that because the Taylor I had was very slim as well as narrow at the nut.

[A String]

I'm going to take a stab here and assume you are playing this:

 

-------2---------------2---------------2-----

-----3---3-----------3---3-----------3---3---

---2-------2---2---2-------2---2---2-------2-

-0-----------0-------------------------------

-----------------4-----------4---2-----------

---------------------------------------------

 

...etc.

 

In this case, you are probably playing the c# with your pinky and then it's a mater of strengthening that notorious finger. Everyone has a terrible time with their pinky finger untill they build up enough strength in it.

 

If I have the whole thing wrong, ignore this post!

[LiveMusic]

Originally posted by A String:

In this case, you are probably playing the c# with your pinky and then it's a mater of strengthening that notorious finger. Everyone has a terrible time with their pinky finger untill they build up enough strength in it.

Yep, pinky. Only problem with this is, I've been playing for 37 years.

 

I dunno, I will say that I have arthritis in this hand and it has less mobility than a normal hand; it was broke in three places 30 years ago. It changed the configuration, the angle of the little finger... the joint geometry changed. But not very much.

 

I just wish I could solve it. Playing a nice song and then "ugh" on that note.

[A String]

Where there's a will, there's a way! Try this:

___________

| | | | | | 1st

| | | 1 1 1 2nd

| | | | 2 | 3rd

| 3 | | | | 4th

| | | | | | 5th

 

Numbers are fingers, not frets. 1st, 2nd etc. refers to frets. If you have trouble with this pic, let me know.

[LiveMusic]

| | | | | | 1st
| | | 1 1 1 2nd
| | | | 2 | 3rd
| 3 | | | | 4th
| | | | | | 5th  

Hey, look! I wondered if there is a way to do mono-spaced fonts on this forum. It is, just used the CODE UBB code button. See how my numbers of what you posted are lined up and yours are not.

 

So, you advised using the index finger to barre strings 1,2,3. I think that might word, might be a good idea. I tried it and I think it improved the tone somewhat!

[Lee Flier]

Sorry I'm late to the party, but yeah, that's exactly how I do it, barre the first 3 strings with the index finger.

 

Another thing I'll sometimes do if I'm picking (which is normally the context you'd use that passing note) is this:

 

| | | | | | 1st
| | | 1 | | 2nd
| | | | 2 X 3rd
| 3 | | | | 4th
| | | | | | 5th  

I just mute the top E and that makes it easy to change to other passing notes etc.

[NMcGuitar]

It most likely is a function of the "weak" pinky. The guitar where it sounded good might have been a shorter scale, or a wider neck (more room for error when the strings are a little farther apart). That would make it easier for you to make that reach.

 

If you can't find a guitar that suits you on this, have you considered just capoing up 2 frets and playing "C"? The C-C/B-C/A-C/G-etc motion is a lot easier.

Just a thought.

[george costanza]

Even further, you could use the first-finger barre all the way across to the B on the A string.

Play the chord as suggested by others but play the F# on the D string; that even removes the quibble over the "clash" between the C# & D.

Try using your 4th finger to play the F# & your 3rd finger for the C#.

[revolead]

I think I support the weak pinky theory. I know my pinky isn't particularly strong sicne I started playing guitar without it, but I'm getting a lot better, it's getting a lot stronger, and my technique improves also. If you want to strengthen it, just try playing bends with your pinky. It feels really weird at first, but it does help after awhile.

[Lee Flier]

My pinky is pretty strong and I use it a lot, but I often still prefer to play the passing C# the other way just because it seems to be easier to move to other chords from that form, in many cases (although I do whatever works - sometimes it's better to use the pinky).

[SuperFreak]

Strengthen that Pinky, brother!

It's a bitch (that sequence) even with good technique and strong fingers.

 

A couple of tips...

1)Try relaxing your fretting hand a little.

I often find that people with 'pinky-problems' do so becuase they are too tense with the rest of the hand.

2) shape the d/c# and just play it for a while.

If you find you're hiting that ok, maybe the problem is in your transferring from the previous chord, and some limbering exercises could help.

 

I know you've been playing for years, but little things like these technique issues can be the difference a lot of the time.

 

Good Luck!

[george costanza]

Strengthening/stretching efforts may help but from what I read, the problem is more that the finger is too short.

That is what causes the problem, as it probably doesn't arc high enough above the strings to avoid touching the D string.

Am I reading this correctly?

 

If so, that's where the varied fingerings come into play as they either allow the use of a different finger to play to C# or (as in the basic form suggested by A String & Lee) they allow the 4th finger to reach farther by removing the "anchor" of using the 3rd finger to play the 2nd string.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by revolead:

Don't call me any expert, but it's my opinion that because C# is only a half step away from D, it probably wouldn't be a nice sounding interval on any guitar, unless the C# is several steps away from the first D...

Try learning James Taylor's Fire & Rain. The line, "I've seen fire and I've seen rain.." is a perfect example of the descending bassline others have described.

 

FWIW, I know the barre'd index finger version of D advocated by Lee and others makes more sense, and I do use it on occasion, but old habits die hard. At a time before I could imagine barre'ing an open C-shape, I learned to play a standard open D and use my pinky for descending runs. I can do it the other way, but at this time it's an awkward move because I'm used to the other way.

 

Practice, practice, practice, Duke!

[george costanza]

One of the things that keeps this from clashing the way some suggest is that it's usually played as an arpeggiated picking pattern rather than strummed...but even if strummed, it's not unpleasant to my ears.

Different harmonies for different folks!

[revolead]

I understood the walking bass line, but nonetheless, so long as the C# and D are played on two different strings with both fo them vibrating, you will get a slight dissonace if you aren't used to the sound. I guess I'm just not a big fan of dissonace and unorthodox harmonies in general. I didn't mean to sound like the chord is bound to sound bad just because.

[fantasticsound]

Dissonance is not an absolute, though, as it would seem you're suggesting, revolead.

 

Often, dissonance is enhanced or diminished by the context. We don't hear the D/C# as a chord when it's part of a walking bass. We tend to hear it as two separate but connected parts of a whole. In this context, it can hardly be called dissonant. (The word conjures up really odd noises or out of tune chords. )

 

Try playing a D chord while a bass player walks the same descending pattern (D, C#, B, A) and you won't hear the dissonance at all. In fact, you hear this progression all the time in songs that you'd be laughed at for suggesting they sound dissonant. (The aforementioned Fire & Rain or Carolina In My Mind, just to name a few examples.

 

But then again, I'm with George Costanza in my enjoyment of this voicing as a chord. It's amazing to me how many dissonances virtually disappear when the dissonance occurs between the bass note in an odd inversion or complex chord. I guess to each his own. (BTW - This exact chord is held for several measures in Copperline, also by JT. ) Of course, it isn't a major chord, either. It does beg for some resolution. Then again, so does a IV or V chord in a major scale, and both are built exactly like the I they resolve to. Again, it's all about context.

 

Not harping... I just like the chord.