Champ vs Pro Jr. vs Blues Jr.

[daddyelmis]

GAS has got me . . . oh Lordy!!!

 

Looking at adding to the amp collection and considering a low watt tube amp. Thoughts from owners on these three amps.

 

Anyone, anyone, Bueller?

[dave251]

I've had a Pro Jr. for a couple of years. I swapped some tubes around, and it sounds great...however, the circuit construction and execution are crap. I'd love to have a well made copy of the amp...you know, ptp wiring and tubes that are mounted on the chassis, instead of a circuit board.

 

Actually, I'd like to have this amp with a tweaked tone stack and EL34's for output, with a more hifi output tranny....

[Mike Gug]

I'd try the the Crate V1512 or the Peavey Vintage 30, I think it's called. I A/B'ed the Fender Blues Jr and the Peavey. To put it politely, Peavey kicked the Fender's butt all over the store.

 

I tried it with LP's. One of which was a 1957 reissue.

 

Also, OT, this store had two LP's signed by LP. And a pick guard signed by Jimmy Page. I felt like backing my truck up thru the store window, loading the case in the bed of the PU (in a very hurried manner) and taking my chances.

[daddyelmis]

the Peavey 30 is a good sounding amp, but I'm looking to add a low wattage amp to the collection -- I've got the Bassman RI at 40 watts and a Marshall DSL201 at 20 watts. The 3 amps I'm looking at sound interesting for their 15 watts.

[Mr.WOW]

I have a Blues Jr.

 

Good amp for a clean sound OR the BB King blues,not good for heavy distortion.

 

Good solid amp, GREAT for practice or a clean recording.

[Major Tom]

Blues Jr. = great amp. It is what I term a "tweener"; IMHO its just too loud when cranked enough to get good power tube tone to be considered as a low wattage amp, but just a little shy of being able to keep up with a loud drummer in a gig setting, at least with the stock speaker. Great for low stage-volume applications.

 

[Werewolf by Night]

Do you want it for recording duties, or "live" small-amp pummeling? Or, for that matter, close-mic'ed "live" through a PA?

 

Champs- "tweed", "blackface", "silverface", and high-end "clones" like those by Kendrick, Victoria, and Ludovic Pierson- have a number of distinct benefits and advantages over many other amps when close-mic'ed.

 

The utter simplicity of the overall circuit and its execution (no reverb, no tone-stack or complicated extra EQ/tone-shaping, etc.; point-to-point wiring);

 

the single-ended, truest of "Class-A" output-circuits (ONE tube, all "push", all tone, all the time);

 

you can take any kind of compressor, clean-boost, overdrive, etc. that you want to pummel them with, and the front-end and the output section- tubes, transformers, speaker, and all- really respond and give-it-up;

 

and the small speaker presents a much closer surface-area and wave-front size ratio to that of a mic's diaphragm;

 

all add up to a definite "less is more" equation.

 

Close-mic'ed, the proximity effect and the aforementioned speaker-to-mic-diaphragm ratio add up to increased perceived low-end and a certain "hugeness". Detail and articulation are usually great.

 

Now, without the assistance of close-micing- just you, your guitar, and the Champ- they can seem a little light on the low-end and whump and oomph after years of bigger tube-amps. But, that's also subjective, many folks get along just fine with a Champ that way.

 

I really regret having traded in my old "silverface" Champ years ago, and really must get around to obtaining at least one more again. I really like the idea of getting a Ludovic Pierson "tweed" Champ clone and a collection of different tubes, not to mention a few nice mics and various boosting pedals for said pummeling... yeah!!

 

Oh, another thing- in general, as far as I can tell, "silverface" Fender Champs made during the CBS era are perfectly fine and no less worthy than their "blackface" counterparts. The difference in price can be ridiculous, go for a good sf and let snobs and investment-collectors pay more for the "bs", ehr, "bf" specimens. "Tweeds" are another matter, they are different from the "bf" and "sf" models, and real-deal original vintage "tweed" are all pretty pricey now. Which is where the Kendricks, Victorias, and Piersons- spam-spam - come in!

 

My $0.02, anyways...

[chedrob]

A silverface mid '70s Fender Princeton Reverb (12 watts RMS) into an Jensen P10R (alnico) speaker does it for me.

[Tele Kinesis]

I've ended up with two Blues Jrs., a SF VibroChamp, a SF Bronco (same thing as the VibroChamp....my friends tell me I can't own it being a KC Chiefs fan in Denver ), and a friend of mine has a Pro Jr.

I changed the speakers in the Blues Jr.s, (one has a P12Q, the other has a C12Q), put in some old tubes I had lying around, and they sound great. Vesatile for clean to bluesy, but not much on "Hi-Gain" type stuff.

I replaced the speakers in the VCs with Weber CR8S's, and cleaned them up. They all had good, old tubes. Good old-school crunch (early Stones?) when dimed. Kinda between the dirtiest the Blues Jr.s get but still short of Hi_gain. Although, the right pedal in front can get them singing, just not gonna sound like a cranked Marshall or Boogie.

My friend's Pro Jr. is an interesting little critter. As you probably know, it just keeps getting dirtier the higher you turn it up. A bit of Boss DS1 and an RV3 can get near Satch-land, with the amp cranked about 8 or a little higher.

Simple little amp with a surprising amount of cajones. Seems like it about reaches a volume peak at a certain point, but just gets dirtier on up, though I'm not sure. Also, just straight in and cranked, it seems to me that I don't really miss it having a reverb at all.

Pro Jr.: Simple, light, more sounds than it may appear.

Blues Jr.: More tone controls, reverb, volume AND master, Fat Switch. Good for toting to a blues jam at a smaller club. Can be kept under control, but will still keep up with a drummer who doesn't pummel the things to death.

Various Champs: Low wattage, good sound by themselves, or can play with toys just fine. Not gonna hang on stage without mic'ing very well, though.

 

(It's fun running stereo effects into the pairs

[RBLA]

I went through the same decision about 6 months ago. After reading all the great things about the 3 amps here, I went to a GC that had all three amp and tried them out. The GC I went to had a small vintage room and they let me bring the Pro Jr and the Blues Jr in to compare. I also tried out the Crate V-1512. I was actually interested in the Crate V-58, but no one had one. The Crate was Ok for dirty, but not as good as any of the Fenders for clean. No big surprise there. I still would like to try the V-58 if I can ever find one. They actually had 3 Champs and 2 Vibro Champs, all silver face from the 70's. The Champs sounded the best to me. Much more responsive and with only 6 watts I could crank it to that stage were the tubes are getting pushed. The Pro Jr and The Blues Jr sounded good, but are much louder. I was looking for something to play at home so the Champ worked much better for me. The most interesting thing was how different the 5 Champs sounded. Different tubes, speakers and probably some internal repairs. I had planned to buy one on ebay, but it was so much better getting to try 5 of them in person at the same time. I bought the one that sounded best to me and I think this is the best purchase I've ever made.

 

As others have mentioned it is hard to get a cranked Marshall sound out of a Champ, but for everything else it's sweet. How do you like your DSL-201? I've been thinking of trying to find one.

 

Good luck with your search.

[daddyelmis]

Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite:

Do you want it for recording duties, or "live" small-amp pummeling? Or, for that matter, close-mic'ed "live" through a PA?

Close-mic'd live through the PA. Currently I'll run the Bassman with a Weber Mass attenuator, and use the SM57 and the DI out of the Mass to the board, and mix to taste. Sounds great (IMNSHO), but in the privacy of my house when the wife and kids are away and I can crank the Bassman to 6 without the Mass . . . man, THAT's tone.

 

So, after hearing great things about the recorded tone of a Champ (Eric & Duane and Domino's), I began thinking of a good low wattage amp to close mic for live use. I am not interest (yet ) in spending $700 on a ptp tweed Champ (clone or otherwise). But the late 60's and 70's SF can be had reasonably.

 

I would put the SM57 right on the cone, and would probably have something on the front end (Clyde wah, Fulldrive, maybe some other stuff).

[RBLA]

Here's a great site for more details on the differences for all the Fender Champ models:

http://www.ampwares.com/ffg/

[strat0124]

I guess one of the things that people expect from the Pro Jr is that it sound like a Fender. It doesn't. It's more akin, despite the loss of low end, to JTM45 or AC15 land than anything I've played Fender. Having owned alot of Fenders through the years, its price, sound, and crankability from such a small package beat the pants off anything in its price range. Yeah they used plastic pots, PCB's, and cheap, cheap, cheap.....but to those who grew up in the era I did, Fender was accused of making stuff on the cheap a long time ago before PCB construction was the norm. I remember when used Tele's went for $50 and a Deluxe wasn't much more. But oh no.....you just had to have a Les Paul and a Marshall stack to be cool!

[Werewolf by Night]

I just knew that topic-title would draw you out, Geenard! Good to see you, so's to speak!

 

The original "Giant Killer"-guy himself!

[ridger]

I have a Traynor YCV20WR which I like very much. Not the cleanest sound, but great distortion. I played the Blues Jr., and liked it also, but I wanted something with a little more distortion, so I went with the Traynor. Never played the Champ or Pro Jr.

[daddyelmis]

Originally posted by Geenard:

I guess one of the things that people expect from the Pro Jr is that it sound like a Fender. It doesn't. It's more akin, despite the loss of low end, to JTM45 or AC15 land than anything I've played Fender. Having owned alot of Fenders through the years, its price, sound, and crankability from such a small package beat the pants off anything in its price range. Yeah they used plastic pots, PCB's, and cheap, cheap, cheap.....but to those who grew up in the era I did, Fender was accused of making stuff on the cheap a long time ago before PCB construction was the norm. I remember when used Tele's went for $50 and a Deluxe wasn't much more. But oh no.....you just had to have a Les Paul and a Marshall stack to be cool!

I was thinking about you when I started looking at these amps because I remembered you were a Pro Jr. fan. But I thought you had moved to Guatemala or something!

 

I really think I'm down to the Champ vs Pro Jr. The Champ is interesting at 6 watts -- never had an amp that low wattage and I'm curious what kind of sound I'll get close mic'd through the PA.

 

When you play the Pro Jr. out, you mic it I assume? How does is sound through FOH?

[dave251]

Originally posted by Geenard:

I guess one of the things that people expect from the Pro Jr is that it sound like a Fender. It doesn't. It's more akin, despite the loss of low end, to JTM45 or AC15 land than anything I've played Fender.

Mine sure sounds like a Fender!! Perhaps putting it in a larger cab with the dual cone Eminence changed the sound of it...it could be the Mullard 12AT7 I'm using for the preamp...

 

Although in retrospect, it really doesn't have that glassy sparkle on the clean side that Fenders usually have...it's a bit more round, more sweet than a Deluxe...although my all time favorite Fender is a Princeton Reverb....

 

You can hear mine >>HERE<< ...I'm demoing my "three" pickup electroCoustic on this one..left channel is the "electroCoustic" side of the guitar, the right is both mags and the center is just the "lead" bucker. I didn't change the amp settings for the different "voices"...just the levels on the DAW. The guitar is a copy my avatar...

 

Here's photo of the amp, converted for my "eC" use....

 

http://www.electrocoustic.com/newimage/newjrcab.jpg

[daddyelmis]

Originally posted by RBLA:

How do you like your DSL-201? I've been thinking of trying to find one.

I love the DSL201. No overheating problem that plagues the 401. I don't find the lead channel very useful (too much gain), but I don't play metal of any sort (confined to classic rock tone).

 

Also, I don't care for the effects loop for some reason -- I run everything in front of the input.

 

But it's great to wind out the EL84's on this amp. I replaced the stock tubes with NOS JAN Philips 12AX7's and JJ EL84's. With the clean channel on 4 or so and the master at 8-10, the amp really jumps -- push the channel gain to 5-6 and then the guitar volume lets you go from spanky to growl. A boost or overdrive (I use a Fulldrive) on the front end works great.

 

When we gig and have a stage, I'll actually put the amp on its stand (angling up) off the back of the stage (so I don't piss off the rest of the band) and crank the master to 10, and mic it to the board.

 

Some folks recommend changing the stock Celestion, but I've found it satisfactory, and changing speakers is one of those things that's a pricey and speculative proposition. So, basically, I see no reason to change.

 

The other key is this amp can be had for reasonable $$. I got my used on eBay for under $400.

[strat0124]

QUOTE]I was thinking about you when I started looking at these amps because I remembered you were a Pro Jr. fan. But I thought you had moved to Guatemala or something!

 

I really think I'm down to the Champ vs Pro Jr. The Champ is interesting at 6 watts -- never had an amp that low wattage and I'm curious what kind of sound I'll get close mic'd through the PA.

 

When you play the Pro Jr. out, you mic it I assume? How does is sound through FOH?[/QB]

 

Man I try to mic up anything I play through, just makes things sound better. However, mic'ing up a cranked Pro Jr with the right guitar is a heavenly thing. Sounds alot bigger than it is. In fact I can make you deaf as a post with mine. It just cuts through with ease. I like mine about half way up or just a little more right before it starts to oversaturate and get farty. Front ended with a great overdrive and good guitar with oomph....you're in bizness. I haven't gigged with mine in two years or so. I went through the Budda Twinmaster stage and still using my Hot Rod Deville with four tens these days.

[daddyelmis]

Other than the obvious, is there any difference between the Champ and the Vibro Champ tone-wise?