Changing out a perfectly "good" amp speaker. Ah!

[Mike Gug]

Changing out a perfectly good amp speaker just seems silly unless I can hear the difference another speaker will make. How do you decide to do this?

 

I've got a Crate V1512. I like the sound, alot. Here's where the GAS kicks in... the HC reviews talk about replacing the stock speaker with a Celestion G12H30 or GLH30 to get more tone and versatility. More classic rock sound. That's my sound, in part. Blues and alternative too.

[Werewolf by Night]

I know how you feel, Mike! It's a pain, trying to figure out for yourself what you want and/or need in a speaker, and trying to deduce just what another speaker will and will not bring to the table. You often can't try unless you buy, and often enough returns are not accepted on raw speakers! Almost a "Catch 22"-situation, huh?!!?

 

I see that the G12H30 is supposed to be a tight, "classic" '70s 4x12/stack soundin' kind of speaker, with a heavy magnet and a 30-watt power-handling rating.

 

I don't find any search-results for a Celestion GLH30, though. What is it?

 

Just what do you want more of, and/or less of, in your speaker's sound?

 

What don't you like about the stock speaker? What wouldn't you want to lose or change?

 

Going by descriptions, I'm interested in the Celestion "Blue" alnico-magnet speaker, and the Reverend "All Tone", which is perported to be sort of like a Jenson with a seamless "British" paper cone.

[Blue Strat]

I'd take a look at Weber VST's speakers. You get more power handling for your money, and they sound good too. BUT, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! If you like the tone, why change the speaker? I can understand the curiousity about what difference it'll make, but it's fairly expensive to change speakers (IMO, $100 is expensive) and you may already have the best match.

 

How do the other users of your amp with the Celestion describe the tone of that amp with the new speaker? Speakers can make a huge difference in the tone of an amp, either for good or bad.

[Mike Gug]

I want it to drip the blues, and crunch up when needed. I don't need a Metallica or an Insane setting. I'd rather have a good clean (with Fuzz, Mystic Blues and Tubescreamer) and blues crunch available. Are those mutually exclusive tonal qualities?

 

It doesn't have a footswitch, so I use pedals. Should I just be concerned with a clean sound? I do like some gain. I RARELY go COMPLETELY clean.

 

The other users report the need for more mids. I have to agree. Is that a function of the speaker? A couple of guys raved about the speaker replacement so much, it's got me wondering, "Could I make a VERY good amp, even better?" Father's Day is comin up and $100 is right in my ball park.

 

It's too intriguing of a question not to ask, especially with all of the experience here.

[InstituteOfNoise]

The G12H30 is a great speaker. A cross between a Greenback and a Vintage 30. The G12H30 Anniversary and Greenbacks make a nice compliment in a 4x12 cab by the way.

[Blue Strat]

Mike,

 

What is the setup of your combo? Open backed w/ 6L6's or open w/ EL84's? What's the power level? You want a good clean, but you also want good distortion at higher levels, right? Some speaker breakup might be OK, but you don't want a lot. Weber's Chicago or Thames speakers would be good, I think. Or, write Ted Weber and ask him what he thinks would work. Tell him what you want. He suggested the Thames speakers to me when I was building my Marshall clone w/ 2 x 12" cab. And the tone out of that cab is great!! You should read some of the user reviews for particular speakers on the Weber VST site: http://www.webervst.com

[Mike Gug]

Here's the break down:

V1512 Amp

V-Series 12" Speaker

15 Watts - All Tube

Class A Design

Three 12AX7 Preamp Tubes

Two EL84 Power Tubes

Groove Tubes

External Speaker Jack

16 Ohm Operation

Spring Reverb

16.5"x18.25"x9.5"

38 lbs

[Werewolf by Night]

Thay aren't cheap, but the Celestion "Blue" alnico speaks are very dynamically responsive. Talk to Teahead (if he doesn't pop in here soon), as he has some in his Vox AC30 (also a Class-A, EL84 be-tubed combo-amp.

 

I don't know as any of these speakers mentioned on this thread would do ya wrong, though! You might also want to consider a Kendrick Black-Frame 12; they are supposed to sound killer in a Vox combo (similar in some ways to your own), as well as authentic "tweed" Fender-style amps.

[InstituteOfNoise]

Another vote for the Celstion Blue! The Weber equivalent is not quite as good (but is still a great sounding speaker), but I think it's higher power rated and a bit cheaper if money is the issue.

[Blue Strat]

Considering that your amp only puts out 15 watts, there's a lot of speakers to choose from. I'm in the market for a new speaker for my Magnatone MP-1. It's also got a 12" speaker in it, and is in the 15W range. The Magnatone is in an open backed cab, so I'm thinking a Jensen reissue or one of Weber's Jensen copies would work great.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

I love the story from another thread wherein Ted Nuget wants to play through Van Halen's rig. When he finally does, he remarks, "sounds just like me!".

 

Seen the films of Hendrix playing acoustic? Sounds like Hendrix.

 

There are a lot of things that one can do to change the sound of an amp, but I suggest that changing the speaker is going to be one of the less effective ones.

 

If you really don't like the sound of the amp, buy another amp.

 

You can have parts of the amp rebuilt.

 

You can treat the front end, creating a pedal setup that give you the sound that you want, no mater what (clean) amp you plug into... this might be the best answer for you.

 

The best blues players on my list use minimal pedals (usually a Rat or something similar, and maybe a chorus or verb), lots of technique, and pretty stock amps in the Fender, Marshall, Ampeg variety. I have not played one, but the Fender Blues Junior gets a lot of good 'press' among guitar players that I know. In a low budget/low power amp, that might be a good choice.

 

Bill

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

There are a lot of things that one can do to change the sound of an amp, but I suggest that changing the speaker is going to be one of the less effective ones.

I'd have to disagree with you. Speakers make a huge difference in tone. Match an amp with the wrong speaker and it'll sound like a steaming pile of dog crap. It might sound good clean and like crap distorted, or great distorted and like crap when clean. I've swapped speakers in a few amps, even going to different sizes. A 10" sounds different from a 12" or a 15", and different cones and dust caps make a difference in tone.(ribbed Vs smooth cones, domed dust cap Vs. flat dust cap, etc.)

 

My Delta Blues sounds like crap with any speaker other than my 1967 Jensen C10Q. I don't know why, it just does. The Jensen is much smoother. It's a ribbed, curved cone with a domed paper dust cap. Of course, it could be that it's just broken in really good!

[WaterMan]

I don't think changing the speaker is going to make enough of a difference in this case to justify the $$$. However, why not get a second cab? That baby has an external speaker jack -- you'll get a lot more bang for the buck by adding a small extension cab with the speaker of choice (my favs are Vintage 30, Greenback and ToneTubby). A little more $ but a lot more tone and verstility.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

" Speakers make a huge difference in tone. .... I've swapped speakers in a few amps, "

 

What I said was, " changing the speaker is going to be one of the less effective ones."

 

Of all of the options one can use to change his sound, that makes the least difference in tone. I did not say that it did not make a difference, but a fuzz box on the front, an eq on the front, a new tone stack, new pickups.... the list of bigger differences goes on and on.

 

Yes, we've all changed speakers. When I was young and stupid, I put JBLs and Gauss in everything. When I was young and stupid, I built my own cabinets from manufacturers plans for specific drivers. Then I started putting cheap low wattage speakers that broke up quickly and sounded really cool into my amps. So what? What has any value today? All of those original speakers that I pulled out and threw away. Everyone is paying big money for them now, because they want that tone. Turned out that the manufacturers knew what they were doing, after all.

 

In a 15 watt amp, unless one assumes that the manufacturers are totally daft, the speaker is likely to be the best that it can be for the amplification system. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that, in todays world of vintage ton- consious manufacturing, Crate's speaker choice is likely to be the BEST choice within anything approaching a reasonable price point. If you are going to spend a bazillion bucks on a new speaker, why not just buy the right amp to start with?

 

The main thing about gear that I have learned in 35 years of guitar playing.... buy the equipment that sounds like you want it to sound, and spend your time playing guitar.

 

Bill

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

In a 15 watt amp, unless one assumes that the manufacturers are totally daft, the speaker is likely to be the best that it can be for the amplification system. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that, in todays world of vintage ton- consious manufacturing, Crate's speaker choice is likely to be the BEST choice within anything approaching a reasonable price point. If you are going to spend a bazillion bucks on a new speaker, why not just buy the right amp to start with?

Which is why I said this at the beginning of the thread:

if it ain't broke, don't fix it! If you like the tone, why change the speaker? I can understand the curiousity about what difference it'll make, but it's fairly expensive to change speakers (IMO, $100 is expensive) and you may already have the best match.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, Mike got a deal on the amp, and he's only talking about making a $100 dollar adjustment to that amp. For that price, you could buy a great distortion pedal or two, but he didn't ask about those, he asked about a speaker.

 

Bill said:

If you really don't like the sound of the amp, buy another amp.

Mike said:

I've got a Crate V1512. I like the sound, alot. Here's where the GAS kicks in... the HC reviews talk about replacing the stock speaker with a Celestion G12H30 or GLH30 to get more tone and versatility. More classic rock sound.

PS. If we're talking about my Magnatone MP-1, the original speaker is gone. It was replaced with a Peavey speaker out of a Classic 30 before I got it, so I'm trying to get a vintage styled speaker back in it. I don't know what the original speaker was, but Jensen would probably be the most authentic.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

You've got a Magnatone? What do you think? I've got a wall of old, small, low dollar amps. I dig threm. I don't have a Magnetone, though. (Or a Gretch, for that matter.)

 

Bill

[MarshallGibson_6]

Jensens do sound good. Although I can remember popping them one at a time every 3 months in a 40w Super Reverb.Like universals in a TR6. But for a 15w amp I'm sure they sound great. Are they still inexpensive like they used to be?

[Mike Gug]

Yeah, I did get a good deal on this. This thread is strictly GAS-related...

 

I've got Monster cables and am happy with my pedals. Guitars sound really good.

 

I'm prone to getting the Celestion G12H30. The stock speaker is a Crate. This amp is meant to be budget conscious. But it sounds really nice. Hey, sometimes that happens... I'd say they matched the speaker well. Where a good place to get a new speaker? I only know of a couple.

[Dak Lander]

Originally posted by Mike Gug:

Where a good place to get a new speaker? I only know of a couple.

Avatar Speakers

[Werewolf by Night]

Hey, Mike- if you don't mind my asking again...

_____________________________________________________________

 

"I see that the G12H30 is supposed to be a tight, "classic" '70s 4x12/stack soundin' kind of speaker, with a heavy magnet and a 30-watt power-handling rating.

 

I don't find any search-results for a Celestion GLH30, though. What is it?"

_____________________________________________________________

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

You've got a Magnatone? What do you think? I've got a wall of old, small, low dollar amps. I dig threm. I don't have a Magnetone, though. (Or a Gretch, for that matter.)

 

Bill

My Magnatone has been hacked pretty bad, so it's not in peak condition, but it's still just awesome for clean surf tones. Very much like a Deluxe Reverb. Someone got the bright idea of cutting holes in the bottom of the chassis where the power tubes were and replaced the 9 pin sockets with octals and put in 6V6's.

[Dak Lander]

Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite:

Hey, Mike- if you don't mind my asking again...

_____________________________________________________________

 

"I see that the G12H30 is supposed to be a tight, "classic" '70s 4x12/stack soundin' kind of speaker, with a heavy magnet and a 30-watt power-handling rating.

 

I don't find any search-results for a Celestion GLH30, though. What is it?"

_____________________________________________________________

Kevin, I believe it's a figment of someone's imagination, not Mike's, or an error that is being compounded. Unless, it's an long obsolete speaker.

I'm betting someone, at sometime, miswrote G12H30 into something that looked like GLH30. All the Celedtions I know of have either a speaker size or wattage number in their model number except the Celestion Blue and Classic Lead.

[Mike Gug]

Yeah, sorry about skipping that, Caevan, I suspect it was a typo. It was typed in a completely different review than the one that mentioned the G12H30.

 

The current speaker is a Crate V-Series. By SLM Electronics, St. Louis Missouri.

 

I understand that SLM makes Ampeg?

[Mike Gug]

I'm just salivating at the prospect of this sounding better...

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Mike Gug:

I understand that SLM makes Ampeg?

Yes, Crate and Ampeg are both owned by St. Louis Music.

[Mike Gug]

BTW Blue, you've got some KILLER looking amps you made.

 

Changing a speaker shouldn't be too bad, right?

[Werewolf by Night]

Y'know, Mike, I'd bet that you could get more instant gratification if you got some recommendation for all the tubes from Myles, and swapped 'em. You really can fine-tune the response of an amp that way, especially if it's one that you will push a little hard. Then the characteristics of said tubes will be the most emphasized.

 

And I do think that all of them at once would yeild the best and most noticeable results. The pre's, the tone-stack, the driver/phase inverter, and the power/output tubes all chosen as a whole package to work in concert to deliver the response and feel that you want. Then you can repeat it by keeping the exact same tubes in the exact same ratings when they need to be replaced down the road.

 

This is one area where most manufacturers usually DON'T pick the best, the most perfect fit, if you will. How could they? It's more like the set-up on fine new guitars, that is rather subjective and personal and must be finalized in the shop or at home to most precisely suit the individual. And Myles has written before about name-brand, good-quality production amps that are shipped with functionally adequate but rather lackluster sounding tubes. As an example, the tubes that Fender Vibro King amps ship with have been drastically upgraded over what they used to use, and the overall difference on average is reported to be very much for the better.

 

THEN think about a possible speaker change, if you feel that you can in fact find more or less of the things that you want to change.

 

Besides being 'the part you hear', a speaker is still an interactive part of the output circuit, not merely something isolated from the amp 'downstream' of it. Not only will different speakers overdrive and distort either more or less (and tonally filter the signal), they can and DO in fact affect the way the output-tubes, -transformers, and the rest of the output-circuit will overdrive and distort.

 

Case in point- if I connect my old GT Electronics Speaker Emulator (which uses an actual speaker voice-coil- but no cone- designed to provide a reactive-load similar to that of a vintage 15- to 25-watt alnico Celestion 12") to an amp in parallel with the real speakers, with the Sp Emu connected to nothing else, just wired in like an extension-speaker, there is a subtle but noticeable increase in spongey, bouncey "feel", warmth, and grungey overdrive around the edges of notes through the regular speaker. Subtle, but there, just by including the Sp Emu as a part of the output-circuit, in parallel with the real live speakers.

 

As has been pointed out, this is all entering into the region of diminishing returns for money spent. These things all can be great to fine-tune and zero-in on an exact tonal ideal, but only as far as that the amp can be taken in that direction. To try to make radical changes this way will usually, at best, fall short, and at worst, sound just weird or wrong. But I think that's not what you're about here, anyways, right?

 

Blah blah blah... I'll shut up now!

[Mike Gug]

To try to make radical changes this way will usually, at best, fall short, and at worst, sound just weird or wrong.

This is what I'm afraid of... I'm a cheap skate at heart, but I love a good sound. Since I got this amp for a good deal, I'm more prone to spend the money.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Mike Gug:

BTW Blue, you've got some KILLER looking amps you made.

 

Changing a speaker shouldn't be too bad, right?

Thanks! They're pretty good for home-made stuff, but they're probably not as road-worthy as a Marshall or Fender.

 

Changing a speaker should be as easy as removing the nuts from the screws holding the speaker against the baffle, disconnecting the speaker leads (label the positive lead and pay attention to the labels on the speaker terminals) and taking the old speaker out. Put the new speaker in and finger tighten the nuts onto the screws, then tighten them until you feel a bit of resistance (I use a deep-well socket for this, and hold it in my hand without a handle. I can tell how much torque I'm applying that way). tighten the nuts in a star pattern, like you'd do when changing a tire or tuning a drum. Then reconnect the speaker leads to the right terminals.

[Werewolf by Night]

Some people apply some of that aquarium sealer to the mating surfaces of the speaker-frame and the baffle. This is recommended in Tom Mitchell's excellent How To Service Your Own Tube Amp, among other places. (I believe that this is more effective on sealed-back cabs.) If you do, just be careful not to get any on the cone itself.