Thoughts on Santana and early Boogie Mark I

[flagshipmile354]

I was just reading this stuff and I came across some guy who said EVH doesn't have any style. WHAT?????????? That is silly. EVH is one of the most identifiable and innovative rock players ever. How could you put Carlos Santana in the same room?? I dunno, I know it is all opinion but it just sounds ignorant to me. You can tell it is EVH immediatly when you hear him, and his style is UNDERIVED. How many guys come along in a century that sound that unique and untracable? I give EVH tons of respect not because he popularized tapping, cuz he is the most dynamic rythmn player I have ever heard. His solos reflect an unbelievable sense of timing and dynamics. Listen to 'Outta love' and note how rythmically complex the solo is. People can talk all they want how he was influenced by Eric Clapton but the fact remains that he sounds like himself. I have never been a Santana fan really cuz he is so sterile sounding. I like his playing in 'Open invitation' solo but thats about it. I know everyone who loves him will argue, but saying EVH is childish or whatever that guy said is like saying Hendrix wasn't that great. Regardless if you like EVH or Hendrix they remain the most unique sounding rock players and have influenced countless players from rock to jazz. I don't listen to VH since DLR quit the band cuz it got so cheezy, but for a time few could argue they were the hottest band in the world. Alex VH is a huge factor as he is equally as identifiable as Eddie. As for Vai, I think he is far less unique than Eddie cuz he is more or less an amalgomation of Zappa, EVH, Yngwie. I liked his album Passion and Warfare when it came out and I think he is an incredible player. I don't strive to play that way but I respect what he has accomplished. I know Santana is HUGE and has many fans. In the end it is all opinion so maybe my 'argument' is pointless. To me EVH is the most natural sounding musician and guitar player in rock. He plays effortlessly and is so identifiable it is crazy. OK I hope you guys don't get too offended by my rant.

[flagshipmile354]

I was just reading this stuff and I came across some guy who said EVH doesn't have any style. WHAT?????????? That is silly. EVH is one of the most identifiable and innovative rock players ever. How could you put Carlos Santana in the same room?? I dunno, I know it is all opinion but it just sounds ignorant to me. You can tell it is EVH immediatly when you hear him, and his style is UNDERIVED. How many guys come along in a century that sound that unique and untracable? I give EVH tons of respect not because he popularized tapping, cuz he is the most dynamic rythmn player I have ever heard. His solos reflect an unbelievable sense of timing and dynamics. Listen to 'Outta love' and note how rythmically complex the solo is. People can talk all they want how he was influenced by Eric Clapton but the fact remains that he sounds like himself. I have never been a Santana fan really cuz he is so sterile sounding. I like his playing in 'Open invitation' solo but thats about it. I know everyone who loves him will argue, but saying EVH is childish or whatever that guy said is like saying Hendrix wasn't that great. Regardless if you like EVH or Hendrix they remain the most unique sounding rock players and have influenced countless players from rock to jazz. I don't listen to VH since DLR quit the band cuz it got so cheezy, but for a time few could argue they were the hottest band in the world. Alex VH is a huge factor as he is equally as identifiable as Eddie. As for Vai, I think he is far less unique than Eddie cuz he is more or less an amalgomation of Zappa, EVH, Yngwie. I liked his album Passion and Warfare when it came out and I think he is an incredible player. I don't strive to play that way but I respect what he has accomplished. I know Santana is HUGE and has many fans. In the end it is all opinion so maybe my 'argument' is pointless. To me EVH is the most natural sounding musician and guitar player in rock. He plays effortlessly and is so identifiable it is crazy. OK I hope you guys don't get too offended by my rant.

[DanG]

I cannot believe I've missed this..... All I would like to say, is I'm a total jazz snob, but I'd never diss anyone's work or taste in music. None of that is for me to say...

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by funkjazz:

well, mr pompous prick of a jazz snob, you are quickly becoming a troll.

 

everyone's opinion is welcome.

no one's opinion is fact.

 

this forum is the wrong place to indulge your jazz snob shitfest.

 

as for me, i will no longer feed the troll. later, conan.

Fact: Rap features NO singers or musicians

 

Fact: Americans drift from one stupid fad to the next, to the delight of profiteering marketeers.

 

Fact: Rap has displaced alot of musicians

 

Speculation: You are a rap fan.

 

Fact: I hate rap.

 

Fact: "Troll" is frequently overused when describing someone's opinion that is in the minority. Often times the "troll" is the only one with something intelligent to say.

 

Fact: I hate rap.

 

Fact: Most people born since 1980 and have been exposed to rap their entire lives, "think" rap is a legitimate form of "music".

 

Fact: Younger people tend to gravitate towards music that annoys older people, be it rap, grunge, metal, nu-metal etc.

 

Fact: I hate rap.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by DanG:

I cannot believe I've missed this..... All I would like to say, is I'm a total jazz snob, but I'd never diss anyone's work or taste in music. None of that is for me to say...

Even rap Dan? Even a form of music that sells the most that features NO singers or musicians? You're saying it's not your place to criticize the Emperor's New Clothes?

[Funk Jazz]

Originally posted by DanG:

I cannot believe I've missed this..... All I would like to say, is I'm a total jazz snob, but I'd never diss anyone's work or taste in music. None of that is for me to say...

DanG, you're a cool cat.

[DanG]

I hate mustard, but I don't bring it up, well not when talking about Santana....

[Darklava]

Originally posted by funkjazz:

well, mr pompous prick of a jazz snob, you are quickly becoming a troll.

 

everyone's opinion is welcome.

no one's opinion is fact.

 

this forum is the wrong place to indulge your jazz snob shitfest.

 

as for me, i will no longer feed the troll. later, conan.

I agree Funkjazz this guy is a snobtroll.

It's sad that some musicians have such an attitude

toward's other musicians.I've met guy's

like this,man they really kill the spirit.

I'd hate to be in a band with this guy.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by flagshipmile354:

I was just reading this stuff and I came across some guy who said EVH doesn't have any style. WHAT?????????? That is silly. EVH is one of the most identifiable and innovative rock players ever. How could you put Carlos Santana in the same room?? I dunno, I know it is all opinion but it just sounds ignorant to me. You can tell it is EVH immediatly when you hear him, and his style is UNDERIVED. How many guys come along in a century that sound that unique and untracable? I give EVH tons of respect not because he popularized tapping, cuz he is the most dynamic rythmn player I have ever heard. His solos reflect an unbelievable sense of timing and dynamics. Listen to 'Outta love' and note how rythmically complex the solo is. People can talk all they want how he was influenced by Eric Clapton but the fact remains that he sounds like himself. I have never been a Santana fan really cuz he is so sterile sounding. I like his playing in 'Open invitation' solo but thats about it. I know everyone who loves him will argue, but saying EVH is childish or whatever that guy said is like saying Hendrix wasn't that great. Regardless if you like EVH or Hendrix they remain the most unique sounding rock players and have influenced countless players from rock to jazz. I don't listen to VH since DLR quit the band cuz it got so cheezy, but for a time few could argue they were the hottest band in the world. Alex VH is a huge factor as he is equally as identifiable as Eddie. As for Vai, I think he is far less unique than Eddie cuz he is more or less an amalgomation of Zappa, EVH, Yngwie. I liked his album Passion and Warfare when it came out and I think he is an incredible player. I don't strive to play that way but I respect what he has accomplished. I know Santana is HUGE and has many fans. In the end it is all opinion so maybe my 'argument' is pointless. To me EVH is the most natural sounding musician and guitar player in rock. He plays effortlessly and is so identifiable it is crazy. OK I hope you guys don't get too offended by my rant.

Frankly I think metal sucks. EVH is now A JOKE. Yngwie has always BEEN A JOKE. Same with Vai and Satriani who can't make decent music or swing from a rope if their lives depended upon it. Even lagging the beat seems to be a feat beyond their comprehension.

 

Yes, I'd like to compare the history of Santana to the history (past tense) of EVH. Santana's style is much more original and much less of a banality than EVH. EVH's stupid tapping tricks ruined guitar for 2 decades and counting. He was mildly entertaining 2 decades ago. Santana sounds alot nicer to my ears if you discount the last 2 CDs.

 

Of course this is all IM"H"O. Rock guitar players are free to feel differently. Of course I would recommend to them they take Music Theory 101 and emerse themselves in jazz.

[Funk Jazz]

Originally posted by DARKLAVA:

I'd hate to be in a band with this guy.

i think that sums it up perfectly, DARKLAVA.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by funkjazz:

Originally posted by DARKLAVA:

I'd hate to be in a band with this guy.

i think that sums it up perfectly, DARKLAVA.

I suspect alot of rockers might feel that way.

 

I felt pretty bad as an 18 year old, the first time I had to play with horns and a music professor who was a master pianist and arranger. I learned from the experience however.

[flagshipmile354]

Well, I would like to hear you play. I wonder if you are any good. As for VH not being as unique as Santana... Lord.. I bet Santana thinks EVH is more unique. Let me ask you, who does EVH sound like? I mean being he is apparently 'unoriginal', who is he copying? I must say that song that Santana did a few years ago 'just like the ocean something something' has one of the lamest most cliche rock solos. It sounds like he is playing through a 'rockman' or something. Totally sterile and full of boring harmonic minor licks. I respect him enough to realize that he is doing his thing and alot of people like him. I don't care for him but thats fine. I don't judge players based on theory knowledge cuz in my experience someone can either play or they can't. In the end your ability to hear the music and translate it to your fingers is the most important facet and that takes devotion and practice. Like someone stated earlier in this topic 'django didn't know any theory'. He remains to me one of the most impressive players ever. My old roomate knew a ton of theory. He could probably teach a class but he couldn't play to save his life. My point is that knowledge like anything is only as useful as you are. If you can play music and can hear whats going on and you don't know any theory then more power to you. There are PLENTY of eggheads out there who could write a book on theory but can't play for shit. Rock guitar is simple, you don't need to develop anything except your ear. Thats fine. Jazz is like that too if you have a good enough ear and you listen to only Jazz and you practice alot. I know plenty of guys who are self taught players who are MONSTER guitar players. Don't knock RAW talent cuz it is way more important in the end that knowing a bunch of words.

[timrocker]

Thanks to both Bluestrat and to Mr. Nice Jazz Guitar Guy for going in depth about Boogies and the technical reasons that they sound that way. Little by little, a bigger picture emerges.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by flagshipmile354:

Well, I would like to hear you play. I wonder if you are any good. As for VH not being as unique as Santana... Lord.. I bet Santana thinks EVH is more unique. Let me ask you, who does EVH sound like? I mean being he is apparently 'unoriginal', who is he copying? I must say that song that Santana did a few years ago 'just like the ocean something something' has one of the lamest most cliche rock solos. It sounds like he is playing through a 'rockman' or something. Totally sterile and full of boring harmonic minor licks. I respect him enough to realize that he is doing his thing and alot of people like him. I don't care for him but thats fine. I don't judge players based on theory knowledge cuz in my experience someone can either play or they can't. In the end your ability to hear the music and translate it to your fingers is the most important facet and that takes devotion and practice. Like someone stated earlier in this topic 'django didn't know any theory'. He remains to me one of the most impressive players ever. My old roomate knew a ton of theory. He could probably teach a class but he couldn't play to save his life. My point is that knowledge like anything is only as useful as you are. If you can play music and can hear whats going on and you don't know any theory then more power to you. There are PLENTY of eggheads out there who could write a book on theory but can't play for shit. Rock guitar is simple, you don't need to develop anything except your ear. Thats fine. Jazz is like that too if you have a good enough ear and you listen to only Jazz and you practice alot. I know plenty of guys who are self taught players who are MONSTER guitar players. Don't knock RAW talent cuz it is way more important in the end that knowing a bunch of words.

Man don't waste your time with this troll,

if he love's Santana the first thing he should

learn about him is his kind spirit.Second he

loved Jimi and his playing. http://cache.corbis.com/CorbisImage/thumb/11/22/18/11221861/PN010595.jpgThird of all Ed

is the man no bout a doubt it.

[Mudcat]

Wow - I had no idea that talking about Boogie amps could bring out so much anger in people!

 

This used to be such a happy place.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by Mudcat:

Wow - I had no idea that talking about Boogie amps could bring out so much anger in people!

 

This used to be such a happy place.

Sorry Mudcat but some people can bring the

worse out in other people.

[Funk Jazz]

honestly, the bad vibe had nothing to do with mesa boogies. just some stupid posturing that is purely intended to get a rise out of us.

 

let's get back to the real nice guys, eh?

[Caevan O’Shite]

?

[Jazz Guitar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by timrocker:

Thanks to both Bluestrat and to Mr. Nice Jazz Guitar Guy for going in depth about Boogies and the technical reasons that they sound that way. Little by little, a bigger picture emerges.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by Mudcat:

Wow - I had no idea that talking about Boogie amps could bring out so much anger in people!

 

This used to be such a happy place.

Did you mean before Boogie moved to Petaluma, or prior to 1973 in general?

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by funk_jazz:

honestly, the bad vibe had nothing to do with mesa boogies. just some stupid posturing that is purely intended to get a rise out of us.

 

let's get back to the real nice guys, eh?

Here's the original post, for those who's reading comprehension isn't what it should be:

 

OK, let's put the last 4 years or so of Santana aside.

 

I've always loved that incredible sound of his Boogie Mark I. I remember seeing him in 1974 in NYC, with that little Boogie combo and a microphone in front, lighting up the Big Apple like never before. What incredible sound for the time. It pretty much revolutionized the amp industry as master volume became standard fare on Fenders and Marshalls within a year or so.

 

So, I propose to toast, to Santana making a SANTANA CD again, real soon."

[george costanza]

Surprised to see this one back?

 

I must post that I personally don't doubt BPark's accoubt of breakdown's on early Boogies but my point was that that's not really unusual for a product-in development---as Mesas were at the time Santana began using them.

Likewise they couldn't be taken to a regional shop with a service agreement because there weren't any---it was a beginning company with no network!

 

The fact that those old amps are still working, conversely doesn't demonstrate, as some alledge, that they were in fact more sturdy than BP suggests but that, with a good budget & consistent service, they are "maintainable".

 

All that aside, & whether any of us like them or not, they were somewhat an innovation in amp design.