Thoughts on Santana and early Boogie Mark I

[Darklava]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

How about this you suck

 

Oh, you mean like Hendrix, perhaps the most overrated guitar hack in history? Or just generic "suck", like the rest of your heros?

[/QB]

WOW you are a lost soul you need JESUS.

Free your mind and the rest will follow.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by Teahead:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

[i don't accept that most people really like anything. They are manipulated into "liking" whatever is new or "hip" to augment their social standing, or lack thereof.

 

For instance, if you had told someone 20 years ago that a form of "music" that features no singers or musicians would dominate the music scene, they would have told you you were crazy. Who's crazy now?

That has to be one of the single most arrogant statements I have ever had the misfortune of reading on these forums. How can you be so obnoxious about other peoples tastes?

 

Please provide something of substance to back those assumptions up with, other than your own smug sense of self-righteousness.

Do you really THINK so many people actually would like RAP if it wasn't forced down their throats?

[southpawstrat]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Do you really THINK so many people actually would like RAP if it wasn't forced down their throats?

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Do you really THINK so many people actually would like RAP if it wasn't forced down their throats?

And you're not forcing anything down our throats? i.e. Satriani, Vai, Van Halen suck, blah blah... you speak of such a subjective topic as music as if your opinion is fact. I respect your likes of jazz, I like many of the same artists. However, I also like artists in almost every other genre. If it's good, it's good. Stick around and share your thoughts with us, but you're not superior to anyone else in this forum and please acknoledge that your thoughts are opinions, not the true fact.

 

Did it ever occur to you that some people may actually like these guitarists you so frequently rip apart? Just because you don't like EVH doesn't mean someone else hasn't been able to respond to his playing emotionally. Different people have different reactions to music. Some people can't stand classical music; some people weep listening to it. None of them are right or wrong, it's subjective.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by strat monk:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Do you really THINK so many people actually would like RAP if it wasn't forced down their throats?

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Do you really THINK so many people actually would like RAP if it wasn't forced down their throats?

And you're not forcing anything down our throats?

Sorry you must have me confused with a McDonald's commercial or Dr Pepper commercial.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by strat monk:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Do you really THINK so many people actually would like RAP if it wasn't forced down their throats?

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Do you really THINK so many people actually would like RAP if it wasn't forced down their throats?

And you're not forcing anything down our throats? i.e. Satriani, Vai, Van Halen suck, blah blah... you speak of such a subjective topic as music as if your opinion is fact. I respect your likes of jazz, I like many of the same artists. However, I also like artists in almost every other genre. If it's good, it's good. Stick around and share your thoughts with us, but you're not superior to anyone else in this forum and please acknoledge that your thoughts are opinions, not the true fact.

 

Did it ever occur to you that some people may actually like these guitarists you so frequently rip apart? Just because you don't like EVH doesn't mean someone else hasn't been able to respond to his playing emotionally. Different people have different reactions to music. Some people can't stand classical music; some people weep listening to it. None of them are right or wrong, it's subjective.

[Jazz Guitar]

WOW you are a lost soul you need JESUS.

Free your mind and the rest will follow.

Did Reverend Lovejoy commission you to enlarge the congregation, Ned Flanders?

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Do you really THINK so many people actually would like RAP if it wasn't forced down their throats?

Hundreds of thousands of people make the decision to tune into a radio station that plays only rap music every day, or the station couldn't exist. Supply and demand is still the heart and soul of capitalism.

 

Jazz music is the same way. It's still out there because some folks like to listen to it, and there's enough of those people to support the radio stations and jazz artists that make the music to allow them to continue doing it. If there was no demand for Jazz, it would go away.

 

Personally, I can't stand most of the modern jazz I've heard. I'm more into pop music, punk, metal, blues, rock, and a very small amount of country music. As far as jazz goes, I like Eric Johnson's jazzy songs, and some older 40's and 50's era swing and jazz.

[Teahead]

Do you think people would hand over money for rap and hip-hop records that they don't want, or like?

 

How little respect do you have for your potential audience? How jealous are you that you yourself are obviously not hip enough to be considered worthy of a place in modern music, or even smart enough to cash in on its low supposed low standard?

 

People buy the records for the same reason they always buy records, because the songs talk about things that matter to them, in a way they understand. Whether or not those same things mean anything to you is irrelevant. You should realise that most things do not revolve around your opinions, quite the opposite it would seem.

 

The themes represented in these songs may mean even less to the artist responsible for the record itself. Does he or she lose sleep? Sure, they spend endless nights awake in their mansions, counting solid gold sheep as they try to get over the anxiety of selling millions of records(!)

 

These guys are rubbing their hands, because supposed "real" musicians haven't got a clue how to make a relevant record that sells all over the world. "Real" musicians are too busy glorifying achievements of past innovators to even consider what is current or popular.

 

A great musician once said, "There's only two kinds of music, good and bad." You could learn plenty from him, James Marshall Hendrix was his name. You'll find him under "Over-rated" in your personal dictionary of pomposity. Which quite frankly is a book I would wish to hear preached less often around here.

Tea.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by Teahead:

Do you think people would hand over money for rap and hip-hop records that they don't want, or like?

 

How little respect do you have for your potential audience? How jealous are you that you yourself are obviously not hip enough to be considered worthy of a place in modern music, or even smart enough to cash in on its low supposed low standard?

 

People buy the records for the same reason they always buy records, because the songs talk about things that matter to them, in a way they understand. Whether or not those same things mean anything to you is irrelevant. You should realise that most things do not revolve around your opinions, quite the opposite it would seem.

 

The themes represented in these songs may mean even less to the artist responsible for the record itself. Does he or she lose sleep? Sure, they spend endless nights awake in their mansions, counting solid gold sheep as they try to get over the anxiety of selling millions of records(!)

 

These guys are rubbing their hands, because supposed "real" musicians haven't got a clue how to make a relevant record that sells all over the world. "Real" musicians are too busy glorifying achievements of past innovators to even consider what is current or popular.

 

A great musician once said, "There's only two kinds of music, good and bad." You could learn plenty from him, James Marshall Hendrix was his name. You'll find him under "Over-rated" in your personal dictionary of pomposity. Which quite frankly is a book I would wish to hear preached less often around here.

Tea.

[Dawill]

Cmon guys, where's the love?

 

I get annoyed anytime someone presents his or her opinion as the only valid one, or that anyone with a different opinion is somehow inferior.

 

I am drawn to this forum precisely because this sort of elitism is unusual.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

Hundreds of thousands of people make the decision to tune into a radio station that plays only rap music every day, or the station couldn't exist. Supply and demand is still the heart and soul of capitalism.

Of course they do that without having been manipulated.

 

Capitalism revolves around easily manipulated people falling sucker for the next stupid fad. I view rap the same way I do "Baby On Board" stickers. Of course people buy Baby on Board stickers via their own free will, just like all their friends.

 

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by Teahead:

Do you think people would hand over money for rap and hip-hop records that they don't want, or like?

Yes

 

How little respect do you have for your potential audience? How jealous are you that you yourself are obviously not hip enough to be considered worthy of a place in modern music, or even smart enough to cash in on its low supposed low standard?

Modern music STINKS. It's worse than it's ever been. I guess you haven't seen as many cycles of rubbish as I. Actually I have little respect for my fellow Americans. I think we're a society of idiots for the most part. Case in point, the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

 

People buy the records for the same reason they always buy records, because the songs talk about things that matter to them, in a way they understand.

Yep, those crewcut ranch kids from Nevada have alot in common with songs that glorify "the hood".

 

A great musician once said, "There's only two kinds of music, good and bad." You could learn plenty from him, James Marshall Hendrix was his name.

Well Hendrix wasn't even a musician in my book. But he'd probably would have thought rap as being "bad" "music". Funny you should mention that, as it would seem to give me alot of ammo on this subject.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by Dawill:

Cmon guys, where's the love?

 

I get annoyed anytime someone presents his or her opinion as the only valid one, or that anyone with a different opinion is somehow inferior.

 

I am drawn to this forum precisely because this sort of elitism is unusual.

Nothing elitist about putting down a form of "music" that features no singers or musicians, or the suckers that buy and listen to it.

 

I view rap as the enemy of music and it has put alot of actual musicians out of work. Ask yourself when was the last time you actually saw a real band at a wedding.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Nothing elitist about putting down a form of "music" that features no singers or musicians, or the suckers that buy and listen to it.

Putting down anyone for their views or beliefs is elitist, and arrogant.

I view rap as the enemy of music and it has put alot of actual musicians out of work. Ask yourself when was the last time you actually saw a real band at a wedding.

Maybe if the real band was worth a shit they'd have a gig.

 

If ya can't say anything nice...

[headlow]

Well Hendrix wasn't even a musician in my book

What Hendrix not a musician. He's probably the reason why an awful lot of us here play the guitar. He was also one of the major in fluences on some of the people you name checked earlier on this debate, such as EVH and Steve Vai

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Nothing elitist about putting down a form of "music" that features no singers or musicians, or the suckers that buy and listen to it.

Putting down anyone for their views or beliefs is elitist, and arrogant.

I view rap as the enemy of music and it has put alot of actual musicians out of work. Ask yourself when was the last time you actually saw a real band at a wedding.

Maybe if the real band was worth a shit they'd have a gig.

 

If ya can't say anything nice...

Now that's just stupid. If you don't have anything INTELLIGENT to say, why bother? If you can't see bad trends in the making, you are part of the problem.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by headlow:

Well Hendrix wasn't even a musician in my book

What Hendrix not a musician. He's probably the reason why an awful lot of us here play the guitar. He was also one of the major in fluences on some of the people you name checked earlier on this debate, such as EVH and Steve Vai

Which might be a big reason I dislike EVH and Vai so.

 

You'd think both of them might have grown up by now. Sadly that's not the case, no money in it, I guess.

 

Vai doesn't have much of an excuse. He's not a musical illiterate as Hendrix was and EVH is. His music just stinks, IM"H"O. It's basically metal.

 

Not that I'm a big fan of Scott Henderson's music since the Corea days, but he'd clobber the likes of any of those 3, with impunity. Perhaps he should go on tour with David Lee Roth.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by headlow:

Well Hendrix wasn't even a musician in my book

What Hendrix not a musician.

I missed this. That sentence was meant to be pejorative in nature and should have ended with a "?".

 

Sorry, I'm kind of biased against people who can't read music or don't have any background in music theory. Of course I can enjoy Wes Montgomery, he worked his ass off. The Hendrix most here know was a goofoff, very hard to get along with and could not play very well with other musicians. Many times producers just gave up on Hendrix in the studio. He was just too undisciplined.

 

Perhaps he suffered from ADD, like Yngwie? Whatever, such a condition does not bode well for becoming a musician or a college graduate.

[southpawstrat]

Too bad Django Reinhardt couldn't read music.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by strat monk:

Too bad Django Reinhardt couldn't read music.

Yep, same with Joey DeFrancesco, Carlos Santana, Wes Montgomery as I already mentioned.

 

Why start out musical life with 2 strikes against you? This is especially true if you have any aspirations of working with musicians like keyboard players.

 

I'm not a great sight reader by any stretch, but I can do it, and it helps me immensely. Knowing my Circle of 5ths helps me greatly. Knowing how to harmonize helps me greatly. Knowing what scales and arpeggios I can play around with over a given chord progression also helps tremendously.

 

Moral of the story, if you have a brain in your head, take Music Theory 101 when you can.

[Dawill]

That's probably the best point you've made but you don't have to be such a jerk about it.

[Blue Strat]

This is my first meeting with a music-nazi, and I hope it's my last.

[timrocker]

One thing I've noticed about Boogies is that they seem to make more stratiness in a strat. Know what I mean? I have a USA strat with a 'bucker in the bridge that can be made to sound good with just the right EQ. I tend to de-emphasize the mids a lot. At the occasional jam, a Boogie will be there for the use, and I always think, jeez this just isn't the right amp for this guitar. It's like (and I may be mistaken about this, help me out) the strat and the Boogie are both emphasizing a similar area of the audio spectrum. And it's too much of the "woo" and not enough of the waah. Anyway, I've been curious about that and would like to know more.

[Blue Strat]

Tim,

 

The Mark I boogie has large cathode bypass caps (10uF to 20uF as opposed to .68uF or none in Marshalls). Those caps pass a lot more bass frequencies, and that gives the boogie a fat, somewhat muddy sound, IMO.

 

Also, there's almost no tone shaping going on between gain stages. A Marshall has high-pass filters between all of the gain stages, usually a 470pF cap in parallel with a 470k resistor. Those really cut the lower bass frequencies in the Marshall and keep the bass tight. The boogie only has one filter, and it doesn't cut that much bass.

 

The boogie excells at the cleaner tones, IMO, because it doesn't cut out the bass and therefore thin-out the tone. The Marshall rules for distortion because the bass is tighter, the treble is very crunchy, and it's got that nice low-end thump.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

Tim,

 

The Mark I boogie has large cathode bypass caps (10uF to 20uF as opposed to .68uF or none in Marshalls). Those caps pass a lot more bass frequencies, and that gives the boogie a fat, somewhat muddy sound, IMO.

 

Also, there's almost no tone shaping going on between gain stages. A Marshall has high-pass filters between all of the gain stages, usually a 470pF cap in parallel with a 470k resistor. Those really cut the lower bass frequencies in the Marshall and keep the bass tight. The boogie only has one filter, and it doesn't cut that much bass.

 

The boogie excells at the cleaner tones, IMO, because it doesn't cut out the bass and therefore thin-out the tone. The Marshall rules for distortion because the bass is tighter, the treble is very crunchy, and it's got that nice low-end thump.

BTW, alot of jazz artists use transistor amps with their $$$$$$ archtops. Evans makes the best I know of.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by timrocker:

One thing I've noticed about Boogies is that they seem to make more stratiness in a strat. Know what I mean? I have a USA strat with a 'bucker in the bridge that can be made to sound good with just the right EQ. I tend to de-emphasize the mids a lot. At the occasional jam, a Boogie will be there for the use, and I always think, jeez this just isn't the right amp for this guitar. It's like (and I may be mistaken about this, help me out) the strat and the Boogie are both emphasizing a similar area of the audio spectrum. And it's too much of the "woo" and not enough of the waah. Anyway, I've been curious about that and would like to know more.

Most Boogies sound their best when used with humbucking pickups. Many Boogies have a "FAT" pullout pot for use with single coils, like Strats.

[Teahead]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Originally posted by Teahead:

Do you think people would hand over money for rap and hip-hop records that they don't want, or like? Answer from Mr. Not So Nice Jazz Guitar Elitist..."Yes."

 

Teahead says....Then you, sir, are guilty of judging your fellow man by your own shallow tendencies. Please get over yourself, and whatever sad thing has happened to you. Were you raped by a rapper or something?

 

[qb]

Teahead said..."How little respect do you have for your potential audience? How jealous are you that you yourself are obviously not hip enough to be considered worthy of a place in modern music, or even smart enough to cash in on its low supposed low standard?"

Mr. NSNJGE said..."Modern music STINKS. It's worse than it's ever been. I guess you haven't seen as many cycles of rubbish as I. Actually I have little respect for my fellow Americans. I think we're a society of idiots for the most part. Case in point, the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave."

 

Teahead says...Glad you pointed out your lack of respect for your fellow Americans, some of them may have missed it there amongst all that pompous, arrogant and elitist nonsense.

 

Teahead said..."People buy the records for the same reason they always buy records, because the songs talk about things that matter to them, in a way they understand."

Mr NSNJGE said..."Yep, those crewcut ranch kids from Nevada have alot in common with songs that glorify "the hood"."

 

Teahead says...This may come as a shock to you, being so obviously out of your mind, but to some people music is entertainment, escapism and little more. The kids in Nevada had little in common with the four lads from Liverpool when they changed the face of music.

 

That's the point. Not everyone listens to someone they can impose themselves over and duplicate to fulfill their fantasies. Mostly just over the hill guitarists, whose bitterness blinds them, and alienates anyone who may be interested in listening to music for escapism.

 

Teahead also remarked..."A great musician once said, "There's only two kinds of music, good and bad." You could learn plenty from him, James Marshall Hendrix was his name."

Mr NSNJGE responded..."Well Hendrix wasn't even a musician in my book. But he'd probably would have thought rap as being "bad" "music". Funny you should mention that, as it would seem to give me alot of ammo on this subject."

Teahead concludes...That goes a long way towards convincing me, once again, that your book of pomposity is not one that I wish to hear preached from any further.

 

Also please excuse the fact that my first couple of answers have been included in bold print, as if they themselves are also quotations. I haven't the time or the patience to correct it.

Tea.

[Beermouse]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Now that's just stupid. If you don't have anything INTELLIGENT to say, why bother? If you can't see bad trends in the making, you are part of the problem.

http://www.earthflora.com/Containers/db-2160-BLACK-POT.gif

 

"Dude! You're BLACK!"

 

http://www.complementstothechef.com/images/teakettles/CirculonTea_Medium.jpg

 

The moral of the story is: take a chill pill and follow your own advice.

[Jazz Guitar]

Also please excuse the fact that my first couple of answers have been included in bold print, as if they themselves are also quotations. I haven't the time or the patience to correct it.

Tea.

Wonderful. Why not go listen to some rap "music" and make yourself happy? I know all this talk about musicians has depressed you somehow. I know, not everyone wants to hear musicians these days, especially we easily hoodwinked Americans. Some of us old fart Americans still appreciate musicians however. Try to respect that, OK?

[Funk Jazz]

well, mr pompous prick of a jazz snob, you are quickly becoming a troll.

 

everyone's opinion is welcome.

no one's opinion is fact.

 

this forum is the wrong place to indulge your jazz snob shitfest.

 

as for me, i will no longer feed the troll. later, conan.