Thoughts on Santana and early Boogie Mark I

[Jazz Guitar]

OK, let's put the last 4 years or so of Santana aside.

 

I've always loved that incredible sound of his Boogie Mark I. I remember seeing him in 1974 in NYC, with that little Boogie combo and a microphone in front, lighting up the Big Apple like never before. What incredible sound for the time. It pretty much revolutionized the amp industry as master volume became standard fare on Fenders and Marshalls within a year or so.

 

So, I propose to toast, to Santana making a SANTANA CD again, real soon.

[southpawstrat]

I completely agree. Santana has had his cake with these star studded CDs of his but I think he needs to branch out now and really kick some butt.

[Blue Strat]

Santana's got too many side projects going on now; designing women's shoes, marketing PRS's cheaper guitars, etc. I read an interview in Guitar Player and Carlos said in the interview that he thinks being a side-man and collaborator is what he excells at.

 

As far as the Mark I's tone, I'm sticking with my Marshall clones. The first Weezer album (the blue CD) has some great Mark I tones, but when I built my MK-I copy it was too flabby on the low end and the volume 1, volume 2, and master volume arrangement was cumbersome at best. It's not a very functional design, IMO. Of course, I've never played the real thing either.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

Santana's got too many side projects going on now; designing women's shoes, marketing PRS's cheaper guitars, etc. I read an interview in Guitar Player and Carlos said in the interview that he thinks being a side-man and collaborator is what he excells at.

 

As far as the Mark I's tone, I'm sticking with my Marshall clones. The first Weezer album (the blue CD) has some great Mark I tones, but when I built my MK-I copy it was too flabby on the low end and the volume 1, volume 2, and master volume arrangement was cumbersome at best. It's not a very functional design, IMO. Of course, I've never played the real thing either.

You've never played a real Boogie? I might know someone with a Mark IIC+ for sale.

[whitefang]

I just know that somebody's gonna jump in here with "Santana sucks", so before they do, I'll tell them about Joe Williams.

 

Joe was a jazz vocalist who did NOT have a smooth, pretty voice. It was pretty raspy, actually. But he was heralded and well respected in his genre. You can name a hundred singers with a better voice than Joe Williams. But, Joe did something with a song the pretty voices lacked. Billie Holiday, too, was no Whitney Houston. But she garnered the same reverence and respect from her peers.

 

Younger guitarists, raised on Eddie Van Halen and Steve Vai, or some other slasher, would immediately claim that Carlos Santana is no big deal. But those who explore music in many quarters would recognize what Santana does with tone and execution says more with less than the most energetic of shredders. And Carlos' tone has been constant, regardless of guitar and amplification he uses. It's his trademark. I tend to think that he, as do other accomplished guitarists, more manipulate the equipment he uses, rather than letting the equipment dictate his direction. Which means there is some other reason he makes the equipment choices he does.

 

Whitefang

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

You've never played a real Boogie? I might know someone with a Mark IIC+ for sale.

I have no money. I've built a few copies of famous amps, got as close as I could to the original schematics, and they always seem to come up short compared to the Marshall amps. The only one that didn't was a Mesa Dual Rectifier clone. I may have to go back to that design.

 

I'm probably the only person in history to build a true point-to-point wired (on terminal strips!) Mesa Dual Rectifier clone.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by whitefang:

I just know that somebody's gonna jump in here with "Santana sucks", so before they do, I'll tell them about Joe Williams.

 

Joe was a jazz vocalist who did NOT have a smooth, pretty voice. It was pretty raspy, actually. But he was heralded and well respected in his genre. You can name a hundred singers with a better voice than Joe Williams. But, Joe did something with a song the pretty voices lacked. Billie Holiday, too, was no Whitney Houston. But she garnered the same reverence and respect from her peers.

 

Younger guitarists, raised on Eddie Van Halen and Steve Vai, or some other slasher, would immediately claim that Carlos Santana is no big deal. But those who explore music in many quarters would recognize what Santana does with tone and execution says more with less than the most energetic of shredders. And Carlos' tone has been constant, regardless of guitar and amplification he uses. It's his trademark. I tend to think that he, as do other accomplished guitarists, more manipulate the equipment he uses, rather than letting the equipment dictate his direction. Which means there is some other reason he makes the equipment choices he does.

 

Whitefang

Santana's Mark I was a very different amp at the time. No other amp sounded like it. No amp had that kind of sustain. Almost no amps of the day had master volume controls. Today there are some amps that do sound like Mesa Boogies, but I dare say that ability has never been available with Marshalls.

 

WHile Van Halen might have been "fun" for a while, I find his lack of style boring and pretty tasteless today. Vai is a total disappointment to me. The man couldn't from a rope and he's certainly not a jazz player or fusion player by any stretch, he's more of an educated metalhead, making fairly childish music. Same with Satriani. Personally I think the guitar world would be alot less cliched today if there had been no Vai, Satriani, or EVH. Music might be better too, but I can't blame the 3 Muskateers for rap though.

[george costanza]

I think those remarks about Vai & Satriani are right on target; for all their skill, they seem to lack the ability to actually compose an interesting piece of music. VanHalen can do that, a bit, within the constraints of pop-rock but ...back to the point---the Boogie was an interesting & new variation on then standard amp designs (taken, if I recall correctly, from the designs of some older Fender circuits but jazzed up & with the added gain stage).

If I ever had to replace my Bassman , I'd get one!

[george costanza]

I think those remarks about Vai & Satriani are right on target; for all their skill, they seem to lack the ability to actually compose an interesting piece of music. VanHalen can do that, a bit, within the constraints of pop-rock but ...back to the point---the Boogie was an interesting & new variation on then standard amp designs (taken, if I recall correctly, from the designs of some older Fender circuits but jazzed up & with the added gain stage).

If I ever had to replace my Bassman , I'd get one!

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Just a note from a guy who was there at the time. Santana's crew carried 8 Boogies to keep three running on any given night. That is not the best reliability. Also at the time there was only one authorised repair shop. Not cool.

 

Bill

[george costanza]

BPark, I don't know what year you're refering to but Let's remember that Santana was involved with the development of the Mesa Boogie from the very beginning, even before it was a real company & small businesses start small; they didn't have a national network for servicing a newly developed, handmade amp.

As far as sturdiness or dependability, consider how often purchasers are used nowadys as "Beta testers"/guinia pigs for electromic gear...

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Geoge,

 

My point is that such an amp, 30 years on, is not going to have become more reliable over time. I would not search for one if my goal was to have an amp to use regularly, or on the road. The desirability of the tone wolud be offset, for me, by the unreliability of the product, and I'd be trying to find the same tone from some more reliable model.

 

I'm not putting Mesa down. Just telling what the realities were at the time that Santana was using those early Mesas. It wasn't like buying a Fender that would go through the wars with you. These things just broke down continuously. Santana's techs, who had to deal with the amps every day at setup, were pretty dismayed. An 8:3 ratio is not a happy one to face on a daily basis.

 

As for the service policy, if you had anyone else work on the amp, you voided the warranty. So you were stuck shipping it back to the only authorised repair center, with the expense and lost time that this proceedure disctates. Not very practical for anyone... either the rich guy who can afford to own a pile of the amps just to have one that works, or the poor guy who can barely aford one. Also not very good for anyone that is actually playing in a working band. You know as well as I do that any competent repair tech could fix 99% of the problems that develop in a tube amp, and in the 1970s there were competent tube technicians everywhere, unlike today. Now you might find a couple of guys per city that can handle the work, but back then most every music store had at least one guy, most had 2 or 3. But Mesa would not set up anyone else to be a repair center.

 

Ever wonder how store become authorised repair centers? They don't go take classes, except in extreme circumstances. Mostly they get the service contracts based upon the fact that they are already the service center for other gear (which validated that they have repair people) and they carry or sell the gear. I worked for a sound company that at one time was the authorised repair center for over 1,000 manufacturers. I know that our techs never saw any training beyond the experience that their years in the business had provided to them. Mesa could have authorised anyone. Who knows why they were reluctant to do so? Eventually they fell into the same common practices that the rest of the industry uses, and I think it was because they eventuallty realized that not doing so was hurting their sales.

 

Bill

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

Just a note from a guy who was there at the time. Santana's crew carried 8 Boogies to keep three running on any given night. That is not the best reliability. Also at the time there was only one authorised repair shop. Not cool.

 

Bill

Actually, that is not true at all. Look at the Santana website. He still uses his original 2 amps from 1973, plus a 3d I believe.

 

Mesa Boogies have always been known for exceptional reliability. Just ask a long time owner, like myself.

 

BTW, I own 5 Boogies.

 

Tube amps are tube amps. Tubes don't tend to last long on the road. It's alot easier to swap amps than tubes when you're in a hurry.

[Blue Strat]

the Boogie was an interesting & new variation on then standard amp designs (taken, if I recall correctly, from the designs of some older Fender circuits but jazzed up & with the added gain stage).

The Mark I is based on a blackface Fender Twin. The tonestack is Fender's blackface stack, the clean channel is setup almost just like the Fender's, and then there's an extra gain stage that's switched in when you plug into the high-gain jack.

 

The thing I don't understand about the design of the Mark I is why did Mesa even bother with the gain stage right before the phase inverter? The amp sounds like a blackface Fender even with that extra stage in the circuit, so why not eliminate it?

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Actually, that is not true at all. Look at the Santana website. He still uses his original 2 amps from 1973, plus a 3d I believe.[/QB]

Yeah, then I must have been high on all those Santana gigs that I did in the 70s, listening to the techs complain. Maybe I dreamed it, or it came to me in a vision.

 

Bill

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

the Boogie was an interesting & new variation on then standard amp designs (taken, if I recall correctly, from the designs of some older Fender circuits but jazzed up & with the added gain stage).

The Mark I is based on a blackface Fender Twin. The tonestack is Fender's blackface stack, the clean channel is setup almost just like the Fender's, and then there's an extra gain stage that's switched in when you plug into the high-gain jack.

 

The thing I don't understand about the design of the Mark I is why did Mesa even bother with the gain stage right before the phase inverter? The amp sounds like a blackface Fender even with that extra stage in the circuit, so why not eliminate it?

Why? Because Boogies sound almost nothing like Fenders, nor were they intended to be. Why? Because Fenders DID NOT have a MASTER VOLUME setup, which makes Boogies UNIQUE from Fenders of the era.Later both Fender and Marshall copied the idea of the master volume control, and both failed rather miserably at it. Some people might like the sound of the cliched JCM800s, I do not. Perhaps that's because of the rather raunchy clipping diodes used instead of another gain stage for distortion.

 

BTW, "Fender" didn't invent a damn thing. The guts of modern guitar amps hail from the RCA and Westinghouse cookbook "designs" of the 1930s.

 

Is Dumble more of a "copy" of Fender or Boogie, btw?

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

Actually, that is not true at all. Look at the Santana website. He still uses his original 2 amps from 1973, plus a 3d I believe.

Yeah, then I must have been high on all those Santana gigs that I did in the 70s, listening to the techs complain. Maybe I dreamed it, or it came to me in a vision.

 

Bill[/QB]

What year were those Mark Is made? Hmmm, 1973? I think that says it all. Still going strong too. Yep, they must be maintenence headaches alright.

 

BTW, I'm an engineer and I've had one non-tube related problem with my 5 Boogies, a cold solder joint on a wire connected to the input jack. I don't own a Mark I, but do own a Mark IIC+, Mark IV, DC3, 50 Cal+ and a Formula preamp.

 

Marshalls tend to have alot more problems, btw.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

Geoge,

 

My point is that such an amp, 30 years on, is not going to have become more reliable over time. I would not search for one if my goal was to have an amp to use regularly, or on the road. The desirability of the tone wolud be offset, for me, by the unreliability of the product, and I'd be trying to find the same tone from some more reliable model.

 

I'm not putting Mesa down. Just telling what the realities were at the time that Santana was using those early Mesas. It wasn't like buying a Fender that would go through the wars with you. These things just broke down continuously. Santana's techs, who had to deal with the amps every day at setup, were pretty dismayed. An 8:3 ratio is not a happy one to face on a daily basis.

 

As for the service policy, if you had anyone else work on the amp, you voided the warranty. So you were stuck shipping it back to the only authorised repair center, with the expense and lost time that this proceedure disctates. Not very practical for anyone... either the rich guy who can afford to own a pile of the amps just to have one that works, or the poor guy who can barely aford one. Also not very good for anyone that is actually playing in a working band. You know as well as I do that any competent repair tech could fix 99% of the problems that develop in a tube amp, and in the 1970s there were competent tube technicians everywhere, unlike today. Now you might find a couple of guys per city that can handle the work, but back then most every music store had at least one guy, most had 2 or 3. But Mesa would not set up anyone else to be a repair center.

 

Ever wonder how store become authorised repair centers? They don't go take classes, except in extreme circumstances. Mostly they get the service contracts based upon the fact that they are already the service center for other gear (which validated that they have repair people) and they carry or sell the gear. I worked for a sound company that at one time was the authorised repair center for over 1,000 manufacturers. I know that our techs never saw any training beyond the experience that their years in the business had provided to them. Mesa could have authorised anyone. Who knows why they were reluctant to do so? Eventually they fell into the same common practices that the rest of the industry uses, and I think it was because they eventuallty realized that not doing so was hurting their sales.

 

Bill

Sorry Bill, but you really don't know what you are talking about. Mesa's tech services are superb. I guess you've never called them? The Petaluma facility does great repairs at very fair prices. They ALWAYS return phone calls. Their techs know their stuff. There are alot of Boogie dealerships though that can do warranty work.

 

Let me guess, if you have a Marshall fixed by a non-authorized repair center for warranty work, it somehow doesn't void the warranty?

 

You're not making much sense here, other than showing the world your anti-Boogie bias.

 

Funny, I never saw Santana play a Marshall. I never saw Larry Carlton play a Marshall. Just about everyone I hate plays Marshalls though.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

Just a note from a guy who was there at the time. Santana's crew carried 8 Boogies to keep three running on any given night. That is not the best reliability. Also at the time there was only one authorised repair shop. Not cool.

 

Bill

At the time, where did ALL Boogies come from? How many dealerships were there? "Solamente uno". All Boogies were custom made to order, and delivered straight from the factory, 6 month wait.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Just about everyone I hate plays Marshalls though.

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.... and I play a Marshall clone.... Actually, I play a Bradley MV-50 .

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Just about everyone I hate plays Marshalls though.

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.... and I play a Marshall clone.... Actually, I play a Bradley MV-50 .

Somehow I don't think you play like Yngwie.

 

The old Allman Brothers used to get great tone from cranked 50 watt Plexis. Marshall today seems to be sin-onomous with Yngwie, Vai, and various forms of metal entertainment. That and very noisy Saturday afternoons at Sam Ash. Imagine being a salesman dealing with a legion of 14 year olds.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

]Sorry Bill, but you really don't know what you are talking about. Mesa's tech services are superb. I guess you've never called them?

You're not making much sense here, other than showing the world your anti-Boogie bias.

 

[/QB]

We're talking abput 30 years ago, not today. I have no Boogie-bias. They make good amps today, but they just didn't make a road-worthy, reliable amp 30 years ago. Why not ask someone who has a Mk 1? Every product made by your favorite manufacturer is not always a good product.

 

We started out talking about the tone, and when I see people salavating over some vintage piece of gear, I think that it is fair to warn them about potiential down sides to owning that piece of gear. Isn't that part of the reason why we come here? To seek information? If you're not interested in the truth, that's fine. But why try to tell me that I didn't see what I saw?

 

Bill

[Chipotle]

I know a guy who is an original owner of a 50 watt snakeskin boogie. I think he said it was around the 17th made. The last time I played through it, it sounded fantastic. I've never asked him about the reliability, though.

 

I don't know what Carlos was doing with his amps, but perhaps he is more an exception than a rule. If Carlos came right out and said Mesa is unreliable it might ring truer than what his roady thinks. In my experience, Mesa amps are extremely reliable.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by Chipotle:

I know a guy who is an original owner of a 50 watt snakeskin boogie. I think he said it was around the 17th made. The last time I played through it, it sounded fantastic. I've never asked him about the reliability, though.

 

I don't know what Carlos was doing with his amps, but perhaps he is more an exception than a rule. If Carlos came right out and said Mesa is unreliable it might ring truer than what his roady thinks. In my experience, Mesa amps are extremely reliable.

Snakeskin Boogie? I've seen a few pictures, actually saw one on eBay, #12 as I recall.

 

Hard to top Boogies for reliability. Of course most good amps get pampered.

 

I wonder how Santana feels about Dumble customer service vs Boogie customer service? I think he had a falling out with "H. A." after a brief romance.

[DC]

I love that Carlos tone and it's one of the reasons I've been using Boogs since the early 80s.

 

My Mark II developed problems after years and years of regular use. I traded it for a Mark III and that one for a Mark IV. Never had any problems with any of those (still have the Mark IV and it's one of the first of that series, from the early 90s). Also have a Studio Caliber which I've flown a bunch in an Anvil flight case.

 

Tubes are the only thing that's ever failed on four of the five Boogs I've owned FWIW. And I'm talking over 20 years of using those little guys!

 

I've seen bunches of Marshalls just pop right on stage also.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by DC:

I love that Carlos tone and it's one of the reasons I've been using Boogs since the early 80s.

 

My Mark II developed problems after years and years of regular use. I traded it for a Mark III and that one for a Mark IV. Never had any problems with any of those (still have the Mark IV and it's one of the first of that series, from the early 90s). Also have a Studio Caliber which I've flown a bunch in an Anvil flight case.

 

Tubes are the only thing that's ever failed on four of the five Boogs I've owned FWIW. And I'm talking over 20 years of using those little guys!

 

I've seen bunches of Marshalls just pop right on stage also.

Mark IVs are superb amps. I must say I was a little bit surprized at how much circuitry the put on a PC board though. The Mark IV is quite different in that regard from the previous Marks. They sound great, and certainly can get the Mark I sound.

 

Amazingly Boogie priced the new Lonestar at almost exactly the same price of a Mark IV, which I believe they still make.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Originally posted by whitefang:

I just know that somebody's gonna jump in here with "Santana sucks", so before they do, I'll tell them about Joe Williams.

 

Joe was a jazz vocalist who did NOT have a smooth, pretty voice. It was pretty raspy, actually. But he was heralded and well respected in his genre. You can name a hundred singers with a better voice than Joe Williams. But, Joe did something with a song the pretty voices lacked. Billie Holiday, too, was no Whitney Houston. But she garnered the same reverence and respect from her peers.

 

Younger guitarists, raised on Eddie Van Halen and Steve Vai, or some other slasher, would immediately claim that Carlos Santana is no big deal. But those who explore music in many quarters would recognize what Santana does with tone and execution says more with less than the most energetic of shredders. And Carlos' tone has been constant, regardless of guitar and amplification he uses. It's his trademark. I tend to think that he, as do other accomplished guitarists, more manipulate the equipment he uses, rather than letting the equipment dictate his direction. Which means there is some other reason he makes the equipment choices he does.

 

Whitefang

Santana's Mark I was a very different amp at the time. No other amp sounded like it. No amp had that kind of sustain. Almost no amps of the day had master volume controls. Today there are some amps that do sound like Mesa Boogies, but I dare say that ability has never been available with Marshalls.

 

WHile Van Halen might have been "fun" for a while, I find his lack of style boring and pretty tasteless today. Vai is a total disappointment to me. The man couldn't from a rope and he's certainly not a jazz player or fusion player by any stretch, he's more of an educated metalhead, making fairly childish music. Same with Satriani. Personally I think the guitar world would be alot less cliched today if there had been no Vai, Satriani, or EVH. Music might be better too, but I can't blame the 3 Muskateers for rap though.

Like who you like thats cool,but your attitude

towards other style's..well...just suck's.

Talk about childish.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by DARKLAVA:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Originally posted by whitefang:

I just know that somebody's gonna jump in here with "Santana sucks", so before they do, I'll tell them about Joe Williams.

 

Joe was a jazz vocalist who did NOT have a smooth, pretty voice. It was pretty raspy, actually. But he was heralded and well respected in his genre. You can name a hundred singers with a better voice than Joe Williams. But, Joe did something with a song the pretty voices lacked. Billie Holiday, too, was no Whitney Houston. But she garnered the same reverence and respect from her peers.

 

Younger guitarists, raised on Eddie Van Halen and Steve Vai, or some other slasher, would immediately claim that Carlos Santana is no big deal. But those who explore music in many quarters would recognize what Santana does with tone and execution says more with less than the most energetic of shredders. And Carlos' tone has been constant, regardless of guitar and amplification he uses. It's his trademark. I tend to think that he, as do other accomplished guitarists, more manipulate the equipment he uses, rather than letting the equipment dictate his direction. Which means there is some other reason he makes the equipment choices he does.

 

Whitefang

Santana's Mark I was a very different amp at the time. No other amp sounded like it. No amp had that kind of sustain. Almost no amps of the day had master volume controls. Today there are some amps that do sound like Mesa Boogies, but I dare say that ability has never been available with Marshalls.

 

WHile Van Halen might have been "fun" for a while, I find his lack of style boring and pretty tasteless today. Vai is a total disappointment to me. The man couldn't from a rope and he's certainly not a jazz player or fusion player by any stretch, he's more of an educated metalhead, making fairly childish music. Same with Satriani. Personally I think the guitar world would be alot less cliched today if there had been no Vai, Satriani, or EVH. Music might be better too, but I can't blame the 3 Muskateers for rap though.

Like who you like thats cool,but your attitude

towards other style's..well...just suck's.

Talk about childish.

"Childish" is another term for gregarious lemmings in my book.

 

Sorry, but a form of "music" that features no musicians or singers, like rap is totally worthless. Hip-hop is not "R&B" either, as some would like to think. Metal is obnoxious hogwash in my book.

 

Perhaps you should learn to become more discerning as to what constitutes being "open minded" vs being a pawn of marketeers?

 

I don't accept that most people really like anything. They are manipulated into "liking" whatever is new or "hip" to augment their social standing, or lack thereof.

 

For instance, if you had told someone 20 years ago that a form of "music" that features no singers or musicians would dominate the music scene, they would have told you you were crazy. Who's crazy now?

[Jazz Guitar]

How about this you suck [/QB]

 

Oh, you mean like Hendrix, perhaps the most overrated guitar hack in history? Or just generic "suck", like the rest of your heros?

[Teahead]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

[i don't accept that most people really like anything. They are manipulated into "liking" whatever is new or "hip" to augment their social standing, or lack thereof.

 

For instance, if you had told someone 20 years ago that a form of "music" that features no singers or musicians would dominate the music scene, they would have told you you were crazy. Who's crazy now?

That has to be one of the single most arrogant statements I have ever had the misfortune of reading on these forums. How can you be so obnoxious about other peoples tastes?

 

Please provide something of substance to back those assumptions up with, other than your own smug sense of self-righteousness.