so what is new anymore?

[Funk Jazz]

i find it interesting there is so much argument over who made certain sounds first. there's twelve notes, right? (i'm talking western music here, no micro tonal or hindi scales or any of that... just what you can get honestly on a guitar). at some point in history every conceivable combination of those 12 notes will have been played (including 1/4 note bends etc).

 

i think we're getting close.

 

so what is "new" anymore?

 

i'm not being facetious, or bitter and jaded or any of that... but how can anyone create a new sound in music when it seems everything has been done?

 

a friend of mine once said our personalities filter our influences and the only thing that makes us unique is our personal combination of personality and influences.

[KARL FISHER]

You make a good point. All you can really do is make the same notes sound different by adding effects, ect., and your distinct personality.

 

Its like, if there are only three primary colors...

 

Karl

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by KARL FISHER:

Its like, if there are only three primary colors...

 

Karl

Good analogy there. How many sounds can you get out of one electric guitar? A whole lot of different tones! It's what you choose to do with that B.B. King lick or that Black Sabbath riff that makes us all unique.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by funkjazz:

i find it interesting there is so much argument over who made certain sounds first. there's twelve notes, right? (i'm talking western music here, no micro tonal or hindi scales or any of that... just what you can get honestly on a guitar). at some point in history every conceivable combination of those 12 notes will have been played (including 1/4 note bends etc).

 

i think we're getting close.

 

so what is "new" anymore?

 

i'm not being facetious, or bitter and jaded or any of that... but how can anyone create a new sound in music when it seems everything has been done?

 

a friend of mine once said our personalities filter our influences and the only thing that makes us unique is our personal combination of personality and influences.

Sitar dude, sitar, and lots of other Indian instruments. NO 12 tone scale there it seems.

[Teahead]

This is a good point funkjazz. I read something of relevance recently in a, "How to have a number one hit" book by a band called The KLF.

 

If memory serves me correctly it stated that someone decided royalties were split, 50/50, between the vocal melody and the lyrics, at some point in the short history of popular music. Thus you cannot 'steal' a beat, if someone else uses your beat, you live with it. Who decided this? Why?

 

The music that suffered most from this type plagiarism, around the time of this decision, was being produced mainly by black artists. These artists were having their rhythms, bass grooves and general 'swagger' stolen, and then presented with different melodies and lyrics by hit makers of the day, the early Fifties maybe?

 

So Bo Diddley, or whoever for that matter, couldn't copyright what was their trademark groove because a man in a suit decided that it meant nothing within the context of a song.

 

We all know how wrong that is. It pre-dates hip-hops beat stealing reputation by thirty odd years too. Ironically the rise of rappers was helped by the existence of these laws, which were originally conceived to deny previous artists their rightful financial rewards for innovation.

 

I do not know if all of the above is completely true, I'm sure someone will either correct my whole point or the errors contained within it accordingly. Indeed I look forward to hearing a more accurate account of how it works from someone. It's a subject that intrigues me greatly.

Tea.

[DanG]

Funkjazz, you are thinking harmonically only the real deal is rhythmically thinking.

 

Most guitar players think of harmonic stuff that they can play this scale over this chord etc, the REAL truth is you can pretty much play any note over any chord and as long as its rhythmically true. Its a guitar player's Achilles heel, most players miss this out completely and never give a thought to it, in my opinion its more important than learning tons of harmonic material.

[pauldil]

Good topic. To me, theres nothing new in the strictest sense because everything already exists. We can, however, mix & match what already exists in virtually countless ways. When you consider the variety of harmony, rhythm, dynamics, tone, attack, effects, tunings, technology, etc. from which to choose, I think you have an infinite number of combinations and permutations. Add human emotion and there is no limit.

 

Paul

[BlueZet]

I have to agree with DanG - when soloing I always start from the blues scale, then throw in every note that is NOT in the scale as well.

I've learned that there are no 'wrong notes', just wrong 'times' to play them

If you use them as passing tones on weaker beats or between beats you can get away with just about anything in just about any style

[Funk Jazz]

Originally posted by pauldil:

Good topic. To me, theres nothing new in the strictest sense because everything already exists. We can, however, mix & match what already exists in virtually countless ways. When you consider the variety of harmony, rhythm, dynamics, tone, attack, effects, tunings, technology, etc. from which to choose, I think you have an infinite number of combinations and permutations. Add human emotion and there is no limit.

 

Paul

thanks paul, that's what i was going to bring into the discussion --- technology. most developments in music seem to follow technology. like the piano, the drum set, the electric guitar, recording to vinyl, then to tape, now to hard disk.

[reachjkh]

...only 12 notes...

 

Yes, but also don't forget that the BB king riff that you play sounds different over different chord progressions and chord voicings. Throw in rhythms, feel, swing, attack, tone, instrument of choice...starts getting some real variety.

 

But, yeah, you're still right. There's really nothing new. Fortunately it takes some time to cycle through everything before you have to start over again. Then it feels kinda new again.

[DIAMOND DUST]

Originally posted by DanG:

Funkjazz, you are thinking harmonically only the real deal is rhythmically thinking.

 

Most guitar players think of harmonic stuff that they can play this scale over this chord etc, the REAL truth is you can pretty much play any note over any chord and as long as its rhythmically true. Its a guitar player's Achilles heel, most players miss this out completely and never give a thought to it, in my opinion its more important than learning tons of harmonic material.

I think Jimmy Page would totally agree.

[Bodiddley]

Originally posted by Teahead:

So Bo Diddley, or whoever for that matter, couldn't copyright what was their trademark groove because a man in a suit decided that it meant nothing within the context of a song.

 

I couldn't copyright it 'cause da law don't allow it. But I made it mine and dats what really counts. Everybody knows it be me dat played dat way and dat's better den a copyright. You can't copyright a feelin'. You can't copyright da way you plays something'. I'm OK wiff dat.

[Dave da Dude]

funkjazz,

so what is "new" anymore?

the COMBINATIONS of notes, chords, rhthyms, beats, etc. etc.

 

Mathematically, 12 notes, 2,000 chords (with voicings), 12 time signatures, estimate 24 rhthyms.

 

12 to the (2,000 x 12 x 24) power = 12^576,000

Oops, that was too big a number for Excel to display (rev a, more correctly calculate).

576,0900^12 = 1,333,375,776,850,280,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, whatever that is!

 

Perhaps that's wrong. How 'bout

(2,000 + 12 + 24)^12 = 2,036^12 = 5,073,799,297,333,360,000,000,000,000,000,000,00,000. I'm not sure what that is either.

 

Okay, maybe I'm being too optomistic / pessimistic. (rev a, 12 notes to the 12 time signatures power)

 

12^12 = 8,916,100,448,256. I think that's eight trillion, nine hundred and sixteen billion, one hundred million, four hundred and forty eight thousand, two hundred and fifty-six possibilities.

 

Are we there yet?

 

Dave the Mathematician

[DIAMOND DUST]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

funkjazz,

so what is "new" anymore?

the COMBINATIONS of notes, chords, rhthyms, beats, etc. etc.

 

Mathematically, 12 notes, 2,000 chords (with voicings), 12 time signatures, estimate 24 rhthyms.

 

12 to the (2,000 x 12 x 24) power = 12^576,000

Oops, that was too big a number for Excel to display.

576,0900^12 = 1,333,375,776,850,280,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, whatever that is!

 

Perhaps that's wrong. How 'bout

(2,000 + 12 + 24)^12 = 2,036^12 = 5,073,799,297,333,360,000,000,000,000,000,000,00,000. I'm not sure what that is either.

 

Okay, maybe I'm being too optomistic / pessimistic.

 

12^12 = 8,916,100,448,256. I think that's eight trillion, nine hundred and sixteen billion, one hundred million, four hundred and forty eight thousand, two hundred and fifty-six possibilities.

 

Are we there yet?

 

Dave the Mathematician

My head hurts.

[Funk Jazz]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

 

Are we there yet?

 

Dave the Mathematician

[Funk Jazz]

can i clear up a misunderstanding here?

 

to all the guys that want to reprimand my original post, please bear in mind that i don't necessarily believe there is nothing left to create. i really just wanted to get a discussion going on the topic

 

--------------------------

 

however, here's my view on a couple of off topic points brought up:

 

if you are intentionally playing a note outside of the harmony of a tune, you are still thinking about harmony.

 

if you are only thinking about scale/chord relationships you're not playing music, you're doing math.

 

and, there's some damn smart people on this forum! i always learn something in here.

[Dave da Dude]

Please note (tone goes to legal disclaimer "small print" voice) that just because there are eight trillian 'n somethin' possibilities doesn't mean they all sound good

[DanG]

Here is a good trick that I learned (from Metheny).

 

When you feel the basic pulse try to subdivide into triplets, now just play on the 2nd note in the triplet group, it'll sound like you are dragging beat way behind.

 

There are loads of stuff like that, if anyone wants some examples I'll email you. I'd put a JPEG on the post, I just don't know how to do it, (I've looked on the what is UBB code, I'm still non-the wiser)

 

greenwood_dan@hotmail.com

[Funk Jazz]

hey DanG,

 

when is Roy Keane coming off the injured list? i just moved and don't have my cable back, so i'm out of touch with the EPL.

 

you are a ManU fan, right?

[DanG]

My goodness you know more than me about Man U. In Manchester we kinda like Manchester City which is a little more underground... Me? I know nothing, I've called a friend he don't know.

 

Though Man City are through for the cup tonight they beat some team 3-1, my buddy also said that I should be ashamed that i know nothing about football.

 

Over here in Manchester its either football or music...

[Funk Jazz]

i watch every team, i just happen to follow the irish guys roy keane is my athletic hero.

 

that's cool you don't dig soccer. i think i'm the only guy in america that does!

[DanG]

I like baseball although i don't understand all that much. It's on sometimes when i get back from a gig. I pick any team thats on and stick up for them. As for American football forget it I'll totally lost...........

[Funk Jazz]

yeah, they don't use their feet here

 

i saw a yankees game last year, and that was one of the highlights of my life

 

oops, thread hijack. i guess it's okay, since i started the thread.

 

what were we talking about?

 

where's my meds?

[elferoony]

What I would say about the debate is the people don't have infinite memories. They are limited to what they can physically listen to. So many things will be new to people, though they have been done to death.

 

I played some blues at an event at school, and it was pretty different from what many people had heard. It was in fact 'new.'

[pauldil]

One cool thing is that just because everything already exists doesn't mean it's all been discovered yet.

 

Paul

[Funk Jazz]

Originally posted by elferoony:

What I would say about the debate is the people don't have infinite memories. They are limited to what they can physically listen to. So many things will be new to people, though they have been done to death.

 

I played some blues at an event at school, and it was pretty different from what many people had heard. It was in fact 'new.'

yeah, great point... some people don't know what they don't know.