Brian Jones, the forgotten Stone

[John O. Lennon]

Recently I saw that Guitar Player has succumbed to the "need" to clear up the list of the 100 greatest/most favorite/whatever guitarists. This follows public uproar over the lousy lists in Rolling Stone (who while including such lesser knowns as Eddie Hazel then used a picture of someone else to identify him!), etc.

 

I personally think it's pointless. While they can sometimes bring obscure players to one's attention, such lists are little more than popularity contests.

Even when they have some criteria (such as a recent attempt in Guitar World, I think it was, which "scientifically" weighted the selection by using qualitative guidelines ), these things are tilted toward who's recently popular.

The older the time-period the less likelihood a guitarist will be mentioned.

We'll not see a lot of votes for Eddie Lang, Dick McDonough, Carl Kress, or even more recent players like Rory Gallagher or Danny Kirwan...

 

Then the other day I was re-reading an old issue of GP about the great British guitarists; lots of names I agreed with, some I never heard of, &, of course, Keith Richards, was in there...but not a mention of Brian Jones.

There never is a mention of him.

 

Now Keef's a skilled musician, in spite of his efforts to sabotage himself, & he does deserve credit for a lot but he did'nt appear from the void fully formed.

Besides his obvious influences like Chuck Berry & all the traditional blues cats, much of what we generally think of as Richards's style can be attributed to a couple of particular players he very definitely studied.

 

One was Ry Cooder (who's on record in a couple of places with his comments in this regard).

 

The other was Brian Jones, who at the beginning was a much more skilled player than Keith &, though he deteriorated much faster, actually developed a lot of what we think of as the Rollin' Stones's style & that Keith, in his ever practical fashion, adopted.

He had the unfortunate fate to die before Guitar Player & its imitators came into existence but then so did lots of others who've been recognized & lauded.

However, I never see anything about Brian.

 

Who's with me in wanting to do something to change that?

[DIAMOND DUST]

I'm with you man. Let me get my coat.

[Tedster]

I agree.

 

And, those polls are nothing but selling points. They put a "100 greatest" anything and people snap it up. Hey, they've gotta pay the bills too.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Brian was my hero. Looked great in all those fan mag photos, always had the coolest guitars, and the coolest clothes... But if you read about Brian, he was more than a little screwed up.

 

Inventive, creative, yes. Great guitar player? I'm not so sure that he would make a list of the World's Best.

 

The Stones, under Andy, Mick, and Keith, are a significantly different animal than the band originally envisioned and started by Brian. (I don't believe that your statement about the Stones signature guitar sound holds true.) There is some evidence that Andrew used Mick and Keith to wrest control of the Stones away from Brian, and I think that this is probably mostly true.... leading to his unhappy state and his premature demise. But the seeds were already a part of his personality from the earliest times.

 

The scenes of him striding through Woodstock are amazing.... the dissapation caused by his lifestyle clearly visible in his face, but the 'cool' pushing through in his attitude and dress. These are some of the last visions we have of him, and they have stuck with me for all these years.

 

In fact, I bought the only copy of Mojo I ever purchased because Brian was on the cover. It's not an easy mag to find in my area, but I had to have it.

 

So if you want to do anything to help raise public awareness, count me in.

 

Trivia (as I remember it from the time...)... though he had left the band long before, his final Stones playing appears on "You Can't Always Get What You Want"... acoustic 12 string.

 

Bill

[sourmash]

I did have the bad judgement of opening a copy of Rolling Stone one bored day(ill never do that again). Top 500 songs of all time had a bunch of rappers in the list. Including some within the top 100. Gimme a friggin break! Must be a politically correct problem.

[John O. Lennon]

BPark, I think (& said so, briefly) that Jones definitely had psychological problems (he was probably schizophrenic in the classic sense) but then so does the rock world's hero Keef---indeed, they're similar in many ways.

I do think that if you study their work the hallmarks of KR's playing derive to a great extent (though not solely) from Ry Cooder & Brian.

If he'd not learned a lot from both, KR wouldn't be as good as he is.

I'm not trying to rob Richards's of anything but to point out that for whatever reasons (some I suggested) Jones doesn't get his due.

As far as any list of the "greatest", indeed he might not make the cut but then Keith might not either on sheer ability (leaving out his image & the Stones's overall rock-culture cache).

 

[PS, that was Monterey Pop, not Woodstock. ]

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

" Keith might not either on sheer ability (leaving out his image & the Stones's overall rock-culture cache)."

 

Yeah, no doubt.

 

"[PS, that was Monterey Pop, not Woodstock"

 

could be. I still remember the images though, if not the film....

 

We don't agree on Brian's playing style, but that's okay. Brian was the serious blues guy in the band. I don't see much of his style in Keith's pop/raunch guitar. Neither are world class in the sense of being killer guitarists, but both made serious contributions to my musical heritage. Mick Taylor, now -theres- a guitar player. His work with the Stones just blows me away. His subsequent work (the little that I have heard) leaves me yawning.

 

Bill

[Base]

Most of what I know about Brian comes from one of the Stones biographies that I read. I think he died very shortly after he left/was fired from the Stones.

 

From what I've read from that book and other sources, he was a seriously unpleasant individual, but a very talented musician, as in he had a knack for being able to work out how to play most any stringed instrument quickly and getting a good sound out of it. Awful songwriter tho...!

 

But as I said, haven't exactly researched many resources on this...

[John O. Lennon]

Last call for comments on Brian Jones the guitarist (not the image)...

 

[Where's that Lee Flier when ya' need her? ]

[Dave da Dude]

I have to admit almost total ignorance about Brian Jones, and was glad to see this post.

 

I can't comment on Brian Jones himself or his musical abilities; but I think the style of The Stones changed dramatically after the "Out of Our Heads" album. Would that timing be about right?

 

Dave

[jbote]

I'm not sure where Jones stands in the pantheon of great guitarists...as has already been said, a list of the "fifty greatest anythings" is just a way to sell magazines.

 

However, there is no question that he was crucial to the development of the Stones. Mick and Keith, judging from various interviews taken over the last 30 years, would have you think he was just a drugged out wanker who was lucky to be in the band...I don't know if this is their collective guilt working for kicking Brian out of the band when he really needed help, and then not attending Brian's funeral shortly thereafter...or whether or not they feel the need to make sure the "Rolling Stone brand" in the eyes of the public(which is all it is these days anyway, having creatively gone the way of the dodo a long time ago) just means Mick and Keith.

 

In any event, Jones' guitar sound was central in the band's early days, and when the band began to stretch out it was Jones who pushed them to try different sounds..."Aftermath" is considered by many to be Jones' signature achievement with the Stones.

 

I think the reason Jones isn't discussed when lists of influential guitarists come up is a combination of the passing of time (35 years since he was found in his pool), along with Mick and Keith's refusal to credit Brian with anything.

Since Jones hasn't been around to defend himself, the arguments have gotten pretty one sided.

 

jbote

 

PS I am not someone who thinks the Stones died when Jones died..."Let It Bleed" and "Exile on Main Street" are great accomplishments in the history of the band...there can also be no doubt that Jones inability to deal with his addictions led to his being bounced from the band and his subsequent demise...but I have always been puzzled by Mick and Keith's attitude toward Jones'contributions to the Stones...and Keith's own views of Brian's drug problems have always seemed a tad hypocritical.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by John O. Lennon:

BPark, I think (& said so, briefly) that Jones definitely had psychological problems (he was probably schizophrenic in the classic sense) but then so does the rock world's hero Keef---indeed, they're similar in many ways.

Wow. I COMPLETELY disagree about that. Keith and Brian's personalities are NOTHING alike and that is the reason Keith is alive today and Brian hasn't been for a long time. Keith is actually quite a down to earth individual all things considered, and certainly doesn't have the kind of problems Brian had.

 

Brian contributed a lot of great things to the Stones, but the fact is he lost interest in the guitar very early on in their career, and so most of Brian's coolest contributions are on instruments other than guitar - sitar on "Paint It Black," marimba on "Under My Thumb," recorder on "Ruby Tuesday," mellotron on "2000 Light Years," etc. He was one of those guys that could pick up an instrument and get something usable out of it very quickly, do something really cool with it and then lose interest just as quickly. So he is not thought of as a great guitarist for that reason.

 

He did come up with some cool guitar parts... about the last great thing he did on guitar was the slide on "No Expectations," which was fabulous even though by the time the Beggars Banquet album was being recorded, Brian was useless for pretty much anything, he was so out of it. Most of the guitars on that record are Keith overdubbed a bunch of times.

 

But most of Brian's good guitar work was very early on, and it was sort of in tandem with Keith, which really shaped the Stones' sound. Brian and Keith (along with Mick) lived together in an apartment for the first year of the Stones, they were totally broke so they couldn't go out, and Mick was at school all day. So the two of them would sit around and work out these dual guitar parts all day, which were really cool. You can hear the kind of great interplay they did most obviously in songs like "It's All Over Now," and "19th Nervous Breakdown." Brian's NASTY distorted slide on the Stones' version of the Beatles' "I Wanna Be Your Man" was also WAY cool - but possibly the last really innovative thing he did on guitar before moving on to other instruments.

 

Keith was never one to toot his own horn, so he didn't get a whole lot of credit early on, but subsequent scrutiny has shown that he was more responsible than anybody for shaping the Stones' sound and most of the really recognizable guitar work was his (with a few brilliant exceptions most of which I've already mentioned).

[Dave da Dude]

Just an observation, not necessarily exactly on topic either.

 

I had a (then current) copy of GP with me at a doctor's appointment. It was the copy sometime about a year ago with Keith on the cover.

 

The doctor said something to the effect of, "Now that's the way an old Rock 'n Roll star should look.", referring to the face with "lines of character".

 

Like I said, just an unrelated observation.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by jbote:

However, there is no question that he was crucial to the development of the Stones. Mick and Keith, judging from various interviews taken over the last 30 years, would have you think he was just a drugged out wanker who was lucky to be in the band...

Well, for much of their career, I'd have to agree with them. There is no doubt Brian contributed a LOT to the Stones early on, but he "lost it" very early and became a liability. Mick and Keith (as well as Bill and Charlie) do readily acknowledge that Brian was the leader of the band early on, that he was the driving force behind booking their gigs, handling the business and promotion, etc. He came up with the Stones' name, and he was an inspiration to them as a blues musician. But at the same time he was fathering illegitimate children with underage girls, stealing money from the band without telling them as compensation for his "leadership," etc. He was not very well able to function within the band setting, often trying to pit band members against each other (unsuccessfully) in order to make himself the center of attention. Lots of people who knew them at this time attested to that, not just Mick and Keith.

 

Once Mick and Keith became the songwriters, that was a major blow to Brian's "leadership" position which he was already losing due to his irresponsibility anyway. Mick and Keith say they were reasonably open to Brian contributing songs to the band but he never wrote a song. He always said he was working on bits and pieces but never finished one. This isn't just their own hearsay either - NONE of his friends, girlfriends or anybody close to him ever say they heard a finished song of his. Just a lot of talk. I don't criticize him for being a non-writer, but a lot of people seem to blame this on Mick and Keith (and manager Andrew Oldham) and say they wouldn't "let him" write songs. The fact is he simply never wrote any, and original songs became the logical focus of the group whereas early on they hadn't been. That was unfortunate for Brian, but not anyone's "fault" per se.

 

Then the police and the courts began to hound the Stones, landing Mick, Keith and Brian in jail for a night or two at various times, raiding their homes and starting a press smear campaign against them. It was "the establishment" against "the kids" and the Stones were being scapegoated. Mick and Keith were strong enough to deal with this situation and come through it eventually; it completely destroyed Brian. He got deeper and deeper into drugs, abused his girlfriend who eventually left him for Keith, etc. The guy was his own undoing, and although it was clear to the rest of the Stones that he needed help, no one knew how to help him. People didn't really go to shrinks in those days or understand what these sorts of problems were, and the Stones couldn't bring their career to a grinding halt. They were on a crazy schedule and you either had to deal with it or get out. Under the circumstances they let Brian stay on in the band MUCH longer than was really practical.

 

PS I am not someone who thinks the Stones died when Jones died..."Let It Bleed" and "Exile on Main Street" are great accomplishments in the history of the band...there can also be no doubt that Jones inability to deal with his addictions led to his being bounced from the band and his subsequent demise...but I have always been puzzled by Mick and Keith's attitude toward Jones'contributions to the Stones...and Keith's own views of Brian's drug problems have always seemed a tad hypocritical.

Keith doesn't criticize Brian or anyone for DOING drugs, but for screwing up because of drugs. His attitude is, do whatever you want if you can handle it. If you can't - if it's screwing up your ability to play or show up at the gig or your family - then you need to quit.

 

And the fact is that throughout Keith's years of drug addiction he never missed a gig, and the Stones made some remarkable records. Brian became incapable of even recording most of the time, he frequently missed gigs due to being hospitalized, he generally just wasn't physically strong enough to handle the abuse. So I don't think Keith was being at all hypocritical, he's made the same comments about Ron Wood and others. I don't admire hif for his habits or anything, but he makes it very clear that for whatever reason, he's stronger than most in being able to deal with chemicals, and he doesn't recommend others try to keep up with him.

 

I think the Stones have always been pretty honest about Brian's contributions but I also think there are people who believe he did more than he did. Even Bill Wyman, who probably got along better with Brian than anyone else in the band and is quicker to defend him, once said "If Brian Jones, Charlie Watts and myself had never existed, Mick and Keith would still have had a band that looked and sounded exactly like the Rolling Stones." Not sure I agree entirely (especially about Charlie), but you get the point.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

I had a (then current) copy of GP with me at a doctor's appointment. It was the copy sometime about a year ago with Keith on the cover.

 

The doctor said something to the effect of, "Now that's the way an old Rock 'n Roll star should look.", referring to the face with "lines of character".

LOL... that's pretty funny coming from a doctor!

 

I think he's right though - I think Keith has always wanted to look like he does now, like a badass pirate meets badass old crusty bluesman. It suits him.

[John O. Lennon]

Lee, I respect your opinions & your ideas in general but the truth, I think, is that while not peas-in-a-pod, Brian & Keith were more similar than different---just consider their proclivities & preferred entertainments!

(Or view some of the Stones's film/video material---their appearance on Ed Sullivan to promote "Honky Tonk Women" is an insight into Keef's ability to at least stand up at the gig. )

There is the matter of Jones's apparent mantal instability & comparative reticence (at least comparared to Keith's cocksure attitude) but overall they were more alike than different.

The fact that KR is still alive is more a matter of luck (& protection by the Stones handlers---something sadly lacking in BJ's case) than any self-preservation or restraint on KR's part.

 

...But back to my main point, Brian Jones was a very talented guitarist who still doesn't get his due.

He did have a great deal to do with influencing Richards's style (along with, as mentioned before, Ry Cooder---anyone doubting this need only search out Cooder's own accounts of working with the Stones); early on Richards was mainly a Chuck Berry & 50's-rock'n'roll devotee rather than a blues follower.

 

However, my point is not that KR is merely riding someone else's coattails but that Brian Jones needs to be crecited with more than he is in the public mind.