Tech21 PE Tone sucks...

[mstreck]

I've been playing a Digitech GNX3 with a Tech 21 PE for almost a year now and I have to say it sucks when compared to running through a PA. Now I do both when playing live, but I think it should sound as good to ME as it does the audience.

 

The whole idea was to allow the tone to be "transparently" amplified. So why does is sound so much like crap? The speaker? What?

 

I have a Mackie 808m and JBL mains that I could use (and it sounds GREAT) but who wants to haul all of that stuff around? The whole reason I bought a GNX3 was so I didn't have to haul stuff.

 

What do I have to do to get it to sound better through the Tech 21 PE? Tweak every freakin' patch?

 

Anyone out there faced this music before?

 

Mike

[Guitarzan]

i dumped my pod 2.0 for the same reason. i find there are so many variables with these type of setups so its difficult to get the sound happening, multiple speaker settings, output options, etc. and to really get a decent sound you have to adjust these at playing volume with the band. i could tweak all day on the software editor and it would suck when we practiced because my settings were done on headphones and practice was through the pa. too many options. my dg100 is digital but its an amp and i have no problems anymore. the power amp and digital preamp section were designed together. i am rambling....sorry. did i even make any sense?

[mstreck]

Yep. You make sense, but I sound GREAT coming out of the PA... no complaints at all. I just want to get the same sound out of the Tech21. I think I may just buy an EQ pedal to put between the GNX3 and the amp. I hate to do that but I'm out of other ideas.

 

Mike

[Teahead]

Why not try using some kind of floor monitors or some such unit to give yourself an uncoloured mix from the PA?

I think it's the colouring the Tech21 is giving the GNX3 that ruins your sound for you, and by using another kind of monitor you may get rid of that.

Personal choice, but I think an EQ pedal may heap more trouble on top of the dilema you already have. I believe the answer lies in using something without a pre-amp section, good luck with it, Tea.

[Dennyf]

It sounds like you need something that's TRULY full-range, not a PE60. Maybe try out a few keyboard amps, or a powered monitor.

[strat0124]

Just having an amp behind or in front of you, will solve all your problems, and give you more ass as well. Going direct is cool for some things, but to gig with.......I wouldn't. I listened to one of your soundbytes, and as soon as the bass came in, your guitar was buried. It sucks having to tote stuff yeah, but tone don't come cheap, probably the reason why so many companies have struggled with gazillions of pedals, miracle boxes, ect, trying to do so, without a reasonable amp tone, in my opinion. Bite the bullet and use an amp, mic it if you wish, and mix predominantly the speaker and less of the direct tone, you'll be happier with the tone....I guarantee. And you'll hear yourself better without killing the mains.

[Teahead]

Geenard speaks with a very informed tongue here! I would have to agree, the sound of a good amp and well placed microphone will give a better and ultimately more consistent tone all round.

However, I get the feeling that you are not wanting to compromise the sound of your GNX3, in which case this may not appeal to you.

You should at least give his suggestion a try, you may well be surprised!

[Caevan O’Shite]

Huh, I thought that you liked that Tech 21 PE combo; or wasn't that you that recommended them to me?

 

Could you be more specific, what in particular is wrong? What don't you like about the sound, and what DO you like that you wouldn't want to change or lose with a given "solution"?

 

Perhaps you could e-mail Tech 21 and/or Digitech, and ask them about this.

Do either Tech 21 or Digitech have any kind of a 'user's group forum'?

[mstreck]

Originally posted by Geenard:

I listened to one of your soundbytes, and as soon as the bass came in, your guitar was buried.

Yeah. All of those soundbytes were recorded with a cheap camcorder. Not at all ideal. But all that we had at the time.

 

I like the Tech21 PE because it does not add any tone "color" to the signal that my Fender did. This allows me to "mold" the sound at home and know what I'm going to get out of the PA. What the Tech 21 seems to be lacking is "presence". The sound is not "in your face" like it is when it comes through the PA. I think it should be. I also think there has to be some kind of a simple solution that I'm not thinking of. I want to hear the awesome tone that the GNX3 is sending out to the crowd. A powered monitor may be a good thing to try.

 

Mike

[strat0124]

What didn't you like about putting your effects multi stomper through a guitar amp?

 

The key is to tweak it, if you can. I had one of the earlier multistompers by digitech, and it sounded terrible until I tweaked it a bit....real tinny. So maybe thats the thing....dunno

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by mstreck:

"A powered monitor may be a good thing "to try."

..."??"

 

I thought that the PE was, essentially, a "powered monitor".

 

What's more "in your face" about the sound from the P.A.?? More dynamic 'punch', more lows (and/or highs), more sheer volume? More omnidirectional 'spread'?

 

What exactly is your signal chain, what's different about the connection to the PA compared to the connection to the T-21 PE?

 

Which specific T-21 PE do you have, the 60-watt model? Don't they make a more powerful version?

 

What's the color of the ceiling in your garage? Why do birds fly? What did the last fortune cookie you cracked open have to tell you?

[mstreck]

What I didn't like about using my Fender amp was that it always had that "Fender" amp sound to it. When I wanted the sound of a JCM800, I couldn't achieve it, because the tone of the Fender amp got "in the way". Does that make any sense?

 

Running the GNX3 through the PA I can still get that "blackface" sound if I want it or hit my JCM800 patch and there it is - sounds like I'm playing through a Marshall! Yes, it really sounds pretty darn accurate! I want a personal amp that will accurately reproduce what I'm hearing through the PA instead of vice-verca. Maybe I'm just being too idealistic? I don't know.

 

The Tech21 has three tone controls, those don't seem to help much. I'm thinking of trying to find a speaker that has a wider dynamic range and see if that helps. There has to be something.

 

I'm definitely going to contact Tech21 and see if they have any suggestions.

 

Mike

[Caevan O’Shite]

Ask some Digitech folks about it, as well.

 

Hell, post a question explaining all this on that "Feel free to ask Myles" thread. Myles can probably figure it out right nicely.

 

Maybe something like one of those Aphex "Exciter" pedals would help? Or a similar BBE Sonic Maximizer unit?

 

Is the signal stereo through the P.A., and summed to mono into the T-21 PE?

 

That just might have something to do with it...

[mstreck]

Actually, it could be a stereo signal if I went straight to the board, but since I run through the amp then to the PA, it is just mono (the Tech21 has only a mono output jack).

 

What exactly does an "exciter" pedal do? I don't know anything about them.

 

Mike

[mstreck]

Originally posted by Passed-Out Presence Under the Tree:

Originally posted by mstreck:

"A powered monitor may be a good thing "to try."

..."??"

 

I thought that the PE was, essentially, a "powered monitor".

 

What's more "in your face" about the sound from the P.A.?? More dynamic 'punch', more lows (and/or highs), more sheer volume? More omnidirectional 'spread'?

Yep. All of the above.

 

 

What exactly is your signal chain, what's different about the connection to the PA compared to the connection to the T-21 PE?

The Tech21 is actually in the signal chain.

Strat (1/4")-> GNX3 (1/4")-> Tech21 (XLR)-> Mackie 808s.

 

Which specific T-21 PE do you have, the 60-watt model? Don't they make a more powerful version?

It's the 60 watt model. I'm pretty sure that's all the punch that they offer.

 

What's the color of the ceiling in your garage?

Plywood brown.

 

Why do birds fly?

So they don't crash into the earth.

 

What did the last fortune cookie you cracked open have to tell you?

I think it said "ouch" at first, then it died before it had a chance to say anything. Just as well. I don't speak Chinese.

 

Mike

[Caevan O’Shite]

I believe that they ("exciter"-type gizmos) use phase and time correction amongst lows, mids, highs and enhances the perceived "presence" and over all tone, kind of a "more and better" button, or a fancy EQ.

 

O.K., just for comparison sake, try plugging into the P.A. directly, bypassing the T-21's circuitry, and see if it sounds the same as it does when the PE is between the GNX and the P.A.

 

Maybe the PE makes the signal to the P.A. sound more "more"?

[mstreck]

Originally posted by Passed-Out Presence Under the Tree:

I believe that they ("exciter"-type gizmos) use phase and time correction amongst lows, mids, highs and enhances the perceived "presence" and over all tone, kind of a "more and better" button, or a fancy EQ.

 

O.K., just for comparison sake, try plugging into the P.A. directly, bypassing the T-21's circuitry, and see if it sounds the same as it does when the PE is between the GNX and the P.A.

 

Maybe the PE makes the signal to the P.A. sound more "more"?

I'll try that on Sunday. I'm getting together with a few people for a jam. The PA will be fired up and ready to go so it'd be the perfect time.

 

Thanks!

 

Mike

[mstreck]

Someone suggested to me that since the Tech21 is an open-back cabinet, it may need more EQ'ing from me to get the desired sound. I never thought of that. Is there some truth to this?

 

Now, the PE has a 3 band para EQ. Well, high, mid, low. Maybe I just need to play with it some more until I make it "fit" the room.

 

Does this theory hold water?

 

Mike

[Caevan O’Shite]

Maybe. Try it, see if you can get your hands on what you'd need, or buy with the opportunity to return if it simply doesn't do it in "real world" use.

 

Maybe you should try it powering a another, different cab, like a closed-back, and see if that's more to your liking. (That may make it sound more like the sound in the mains).

 

Still... (if you haven't already) post a question explaining all this on that "Feel free to ask Myles" thread. Myles can probably figure it out right nicely.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by mstreck:

Someone suggested to me that since the Tech21 is an open-back cabinet, it may need more EQ'ing from me to get the desired sound. I never thought of that. Is there some truth to this?

 

Now, the PE has a 3 band para EQ. Well, high, mid, low. Maybe I just need to play with it some more until I make it "fit" the room.

 

Does this theory hold water?

 

Mike

An open backed cabinet will sound very different from a closed back cab. The open back is more omni-directional, and the closed back is more focused. The open backed cab will also be a bit brighter with the same speakers. I personally like closed back speaker cabinets.

 

Doesn't the PE-60 have a extension speaker output jack? If so, you could try it through a 4 x 12" cab or a 2 x 12". You could also mount some wooden blocks inside the cabinet of the PE-60 and cut a board to cover the back of your cab. It has to fit almost air-tight.

[mstreck]

I'll have to wait a few days to try the "hands on" approach. I just posted to Myles. Hopefully, he has a few tips, too.

 

Thanks!

 

Mike

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

"An open backed cabinet will sound very different from a closed back cab."

 

"Doesn't the PE-60 have a extension speaker output jack? If so, you could try it through a 4x12" cab or a 2x12"."

Yeah, a closed-back extension-cab might help; the P.A. speakers are closed-back, right? Maybe that would sound more like the mains.

[doc taz]

Originally posted by mstreck:

What do I have to do to get it to sound better through the Tech 21 PE? Tweak every freakin' patch?

Just curious... for most of the patches you have, do you use the speaker simulations? I know that with my ZOOM GFX-5, if I run it direct to the power amp of my Fender Deluxe 85, that the amp sims sound much better without any speaker sims on. That way, I'm getting the direct sound of the amp + any effects hitting my combo without it going up front through the 85's preamp. It's also earsplittingly loud, yet very clean, as in very little hum or hiss, and that's with most of my distorted patches.

 

I guess Geenard does have the best suggestion about miking the amp cab, that is, rather than relying totally on a direct signal.

 

Okay... off to enjoy some Star Trek, Unreal style. Good night.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by Dr. Taz:

"Just curious... for most of the patches you have, do you use the speaker simulations? I know that with my ZOOM GFX-5, if I run it direct to the power amp of my Fender Deluxe 85, that the amp sims sound much better without any speaker sims on."

 

"I guess Geenard does have the best suggestion about miking the amp cab, that is, rather than relying totally on a direct signal."

The thing is, he (Mike/mstreck) likes the sound that is coming from the P.A. mains, which is just the "Direct"-out from the Tech-21 Power Engine combo-amp, which, in turn, is coming from the Digitech GNX3, however he's got it set, speaker sims or no.

 

He's going: Strat (1/4")-> GNX3 (1/4")-> Tech21 (XLR)-> Mackie 808s.

 

The Tech21 is actually in the signal chain.

 

He doesn't need to mic the amp, that would merely mic what he doesn't like. He doesn't need to change the sound in the PA mains, that's what he already likes and is satisfied with. He needs to figure out why the sound from the T-21 PE doesn't please him the way the P.A. mains' sound does.

 

The Tech 21 Power Engine is essentially the same as running into the power-amp in on your Fender, Taz; it's a SS combo designed to cleanly replicate a modeler or preamp or whatever, more like a little bass-amp or keyboard-amp than a "guitar amp". For some reason, the sound that comes from taking its line-out through the P.A. sounds great, while the sound from the PE's speaker is sounding "like crap" to him.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Passed-Out Presence Under the Tree:

Originally posted by bluestrat:

"An open backed cabinet will sound very different from a closed back cab."

 

"Doesn't the PE-60 have a extension speaker output jack? If so, you could try it through a 4x12" cab or a 2x12"."

Yeah, a closed-back extension-cab might help; the P.A. speakers are closed-back, right? Maybe that would sound more like the mains.

Also, speakers that can handle more power are better, because they won't color the tone as much (not as much cone distortion at higher volumes). If you look for new speakers, look for some for bass amps or "sound reinforcement". I thought that the PE-60 was more for analog effects, like single-unit stomp boxes?

[doc taz]

Originally posted by Passed-Out Presence Under the Tree:

The Tech 21 Power Engine is essentially the same as running into the power-amp in on your Fender, Taz; it's a SS combo designed to cleanly replicate a modeler or preamp or whatever, more like a little bass-amp or keyboard-amp than a "guitar amp". For some reason, the sound that comes from taking its line-out through the P.A. sounds great, while the sound from the PE's speaker is sounding "like crap" to him.

Okay, I meant the speaker sim functions of his GNX. If he has the speaker sims from the GNX turned OFF, then he should get a better sound out of the PE cab. Having the speaker sim ON from within the GNX might be adding some coloration to the sound, which may affect what he's hearing from the PE.

 

Doing this may or may not improve the sound going from the PE's line out, to the PA. Only he can find out for sure.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Oh, yeah, I understand that, good Dr. Taz; but any changes "upstream" of the T-21 PE will also affect the signal going to the P.A., which he's said he likes alot the way it is, that's all.

[Caevan O’Shite]

So, mstreck, how have things been going for you sound-wise, what have you since found concerning your GNX3, PE 60, and the PA?

[mstreck]

I started over from scratch and designed some patches that sounded great. Then at practice on Friday, my punch (and volume) seemed to disappear. At this point I'm guessing that it's the amp.

 

I was so disgusted that I just left everything at practice. I'll see what happens on Friday.

 

Mike

[Caevan O’Shite]

I wonder if the PE just lacks the dynamic response, horsepower, chutzpa, whatever, to deliver the response as well as the basic "EQ" that you need?

 

The PA is (obviously) a lot more powerful, and thus would have the means to deliver both.

 

Sorry to hear of your ongoing troubles there! I was hoping for a "happy ending" reply...