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Do you ever foresee a time when...


Tedster

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I remember back in the early 80s, Ibanez came out with damn-near-perfect copies of the Korina Explorer and Flying V. Gibson got p.o.ed, and either threatened to sue them or actually did. Those guitars, hence, became quite collectible, as Ibanez had to pull 'em.

 

We all know of the hefty price tags fetched by old Gibsons, Fenders, Gretsches, etc...U.S. made guitars. My first Gibson was a '66 non-reverse Firebird, three P-90s. I sold it to buy a '64 reverse, because at the time, the non-reverse model wasn't sought after.

 

Do you ever foresee a time when foreign-made guitars will become sought after collectibles? And, before you answer, consider that most sought after collectibles are in fact thus because no one would have thought a few years prior they would become sought after collectibles...

"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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The early Squiers and Fender of Japan Strats are sought after now, so I guess foreign guitars are already collectors items. I'll make the prediction that the early, Korean made Squier Strats will become collectors guitars. They're relatively rare and well made guitars.

BlueStrat

a.k.a. "El Guapo" ;)

 

...Better fuzz through science...

 

http://geocities.com/teleman28056/index.html

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You almost have to make two categories, instruments that are sought after by players for their playability and tone, thus increasing demand, and instruments that are sought after by collectors due to rarity and historical significance.

 

Instruments often start out in the first category and wind up in the second, but how often do they move in the opposite direction?

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite:

You almost have to make two categories, instruments that are sought after by players for their playability and tone, thus increasing demand, and instruments that are sought after by collectors due to rarity and historical significance.

 

Instruments often start out in the first category and wind up in the second, but how often do they move in the opposite direction?

I don't know, I don't collect 'em. I just play 'em!

BlueStrat

a.k.a. "El Guapo" ;)

 

...Better fuzz through science...

 

http://geocities.com/teleman28056/index.html

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As much as I hate to say it, ebay has changed the whole world view on marketing. All you have to do is go into the electric guitars section of ebay and do a search for "lawsuit". If you have been browsing ebay for any length of time, that phrase will ring a bell.

 

I think that exposing the buying public to that (or any) phrase paints items in a new light. Even though some sellers try to paint their items with an optimistic price, the buying public(also known as Joe Consumer) will, after being hit in the head with it for long enough, begin to believe this and "buy" into the perceived value. Auctions of any kind put a lot of emphasis on the emotions(and emotional value) of the bidder. I am sure that there could be some great papers written on the buying habits and social behaviour of Joe Consumer just through ebay.

 

I am not saying this is right or wrong, but just trying to point out that advertising, no matter how subtle, can have a tremendous impact on buying decisions.

 

Perhaps a buyer might, at first, justify the purchase a Explorer copy by the price that he can afford. Once that level is reached, it is not a far step to be able to rationalize the collectibilty value after being bombarded of inflated pricing the perceived value of the "lawsuit" instrument.

 

Human nature is a fickle thing, and I think it can be dangerous to try and understand too much. This brings to mind a favorite line of mine:

 

"When you see through love's illusion, there lies the danger. And your perfect lover just looks like a perfect fool"(Jackson Brown, Fountain of Sorrow.

 

I hope I do not offend or hurt anyone's feelings with these ideas of purchase justification, perceived value, or power of advertising. For I, too would love to have an Explorer, something about an Explorer. Sorry to ramble.

Check out some handcrafted guitars:

http://home.mindspring.com/~grus/guitars.htm

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I have an Ibanez Silver Series Strat copy from the late 70s. Had I ever imagined it would become 'collectible' I'd never have made any modifications - nor would I have banged it against the amps so much :D

 

I replaced the stock pickups with Dimarzio HS3s about 15 years ago. It also has a graphite nut & roller saddles. If anyone wants to buy this banged-up old thing for $600, I'll gladly sell it.

I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist.

 

This ain't no track meet; this is football.

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Several companies, Gibson foremost, have "re-issued" several discontinued models, probably to cash in on those customers who have trouble tracking down an original. As US made guitars get rarer, and Japanese made axes are being undercut by Korean models, time will shift to when the Japanese models become rare. And so then colllectible. Who can tell...someday, the Korean made guitars will be collecter's items because all the major manufacturers start building them in Sri Lanka!

 

Whitefang

I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
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I had to go before I finished my last post on this thread, and just hit "Add reply"...

 

Some foreign made guitars have become sought after collectables, to a point; like the Ibanez George Benson models of the '70s. Granted, they're still fairly good deals, almost bargains for what you get, but their value is pretty healthy, and probably going to continue to rise.

 

I see no reason that more and more instruments of "offshore" origins won't slide into group one, and even group two, from my previous post. It's really always a seller's market now, and that market will be artificially influenced as much as possible by the sellers. Prices will always be what the market will bear, pushed and prodded by them.

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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Was ESP a Japanese comapny? They made great strat copies in the early to mid 80s. Charvel, which I guess is or was American, also made great copies. That was before they started doing more of their on thing. My early 80s Zion was, for years, completely out-of-style. But now, everybody loves that guitar. My point is that I think we're seeing a new breed of vintage starting to come around.
Everybody knows rock attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact. - Homer Simpson
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Regarding ESP, I think their LTD models, like the sig models, could definitely be collectible.

 

As for the Jacksons, many are quite collectable. Any of their guitars with the custom artwork certainly can fetch near the amount of many pre-1980s guitars made by older, more established brands (gibson, fender, etc).

 

Heck, even the original Steinbergers easily fetch in the thousands, if not the ten thousands. Don't even mention rarities like the Gittler

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Who knows, maybe some Americans will start collecting certain Japanese models, and then some Japanese collecters will follow suit, combing the 'States for their exports!

 

"New (breed of) Vintage"... ain't that wunna them oxy-morons? ;)

 

I think that good guitars will always be sought after, and when a particularly good model tends to be a killer deal, a "sleeper", it will eventually become a very well-known secret. And then the price will go up!

 

I bet that'll happen with those Cort larry Coryell models, among others.

 

Look how those old Tube Screamers used to be dirt cheap. Now, no matter how many different excellent alternatives there are, from dead-ringer reissues to boutique pedals, some people still want the original oldies, and that demand keeps the prices for them up.

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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Originally posted by Dr. Taz:

Don't even mention rarities like the Gittler

You said not to mention it, but I'm gonna. I remember the Gittler! A guitar mag came out with a "buyers guide" every year and the Gittler is in it. Maybe '85 or so? It's funny to see the designs and read about guitars that were so-called "cutting edge" back then.
Everybody knows rock attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact. - Homer Simpson
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Do you ever foresee a time when foreign-made guitars will become sought after collectibles?
They already are. Tokai Strat and Les Paul copies were sought after by players for years as an affordable alternative to real vintage Strats and LPs (Tokai was one of the companies that copied the guitars down to the threading on the screws).

 

In the last couple of years, collectors have caught on and no the prices for these have gone through the roof.

 

The higher-end Ibanez guitars from the mid-late 70s are becoming expensive as well.

"You never can vouch for your own consciousness." - Norman Mailer
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Yeah, I remember the Gittler being used by Andy Summers in a Police video. I had already seen it in an issue of Guitar Player and so I recognized it.

 

I don't think I'd like having so little "neck" to position my hand on, though. But I bet they sound cool! "Different", at least!

 

Thanks for the cool link, Tazz'! I'll have to add their home-page to my "favorites" list.

 

I bet that those Japanese made "Orville" Les Pauls will go up in demand, and certain years and models will be alleged to be the most desirable.

 

Yeah, Gabes, I've only had the pleasure of briefly playing one of those Tokai vintage-Strat-styled "copies" once, as their "collectibility" status had already begun to catch on. I haven't seen very many of them...

 

Fortunately, I think there will always be some good guitars out there, new and used and old and "vintage", that aren't tagged with insane and unreasonable prices.

 

Man, I wish like Hell that one friend hadn't forgotten that I had asked for "first dibs" if he changed his mind and wanted to sell a really sweet, pristine Ibanez George Benson model; he did, it got e-bayed, and I never even knew it had been for sale! The prices on those are always going to go up, I'm sure, and I'll not likely see as reasonable a deal as that again soon...

 

This "collector's item" and "vintage" stuff kinda chaps my @$$, really, as prices get further inflated out of proportion! Guitars that should just be "used" and "old", not "vintage" and "collecter's", are too often overpriced as everybody wants to get rich quick and too many people buy into the B.S. hype. Why on earth are late '60s and '70s Strats, Teles, and Les Pauls even remotely considered "vintage"? Those were the very guitars that made players want the '50s and early '60s axes! They're just old! They should be cheap, for beginners and intermediates to have more options among "affordable" guitars! And, though I lump them all together in my slam, I'm sure that good ones can be found that are exceptionally better than the majority.

 

The same thing will eventually happen to "offshores" of all kinds, as well.

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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I hear ya, Caveman. Part of my purpose in tossing this out for discussion was to encourage us as guitar players to be happy when finding good deals today on something that may be out of reach tomorrow.

 

And I was thinking about the Orvilles, too. I kinda want one...

"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Well, will anything that you might want to change about it be easily reversable?

 

And, what will you want to do with it in the future? Resell it, keep it as a player, leave it to family?

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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Originally posted by revolead:

My old Epiphone Scroll 550 isn't exactly a collectors item yet, but its 1977 model year will certainly have an effect. (The ebony/gold hardware model) And the guitar is very rare. I'm lucky to have one. I'm thinking after this thread, that maybe I should leave it stock after all. Any thoughts on this?

I'd never seen one of those before! I thought I'd seen everything.

 

Who knows? I'd leave it stock.

 

I remember when Gibson came out with the "RD" series. Dogs. But I saw a guy playing one last summer and it sounded quite nice, and reminded me of the "Good ol' days".

"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Oh, yeah, Tedster- I'll forever associate Hagstroms with that old poster showing Frank Zappa holding a herkin' Hagstrom twelve-string electric in a sorta "violin" grip, with that humongous headstock right up in the camera lens. "Shame on you; you haven't listened to your Mothers!"

 

So, d'yathink that yer ol' Talman'll be a hot-tickett collectable someday? Or just a great guitar, for a decent price?

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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All I was planning on doing was switching out the pickups, if I decided to do that. But I think my current plan is to wait until I get a better amp, and leave it. Thanks for your help.

BTW - I don't ever plan to sell it. When I die, and that's gonna be awhile probably, I'll probably just leave it with my guitar playing son/daughter, and trust me I will have one of those. :):D

Shut up and play.
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Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite:

So, d'yathink that yer ol' Talman'll be a hot-tickett collectable someday? Or just a great guitar, for a decent price?

Doesn't matter, I think right now a great guitar at a decent price. But they didn't make 'em for too long...and they are a rather distinctive body style. I've got another guitar that fits into this category, a Japanese-made Washburn A-20 (the Howard Leese type one). It's a killer guitar as well.
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Originally posted by Tedster Claus:

Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite:

So, d'yathink that yer ol' Talman'll be a hot-tickett collectable someday? Or just a great guitar, for a decent price?

Doesn't matter, I think right now a great guitar at a decent price. But they didn't make 'em for too long...and they are a rather distinctive body style. I've got another guitar that fits into this category, a Japanese-made Washburn A-20 (the Howard Leese type one). It's a killer guitar as well.
Maybe my Epiphone Del Rey will be a collectors item one day. It's rather rare, and it's a great guitar. Mine is in the cherry sunburst finish. The only mods I've made are a pickup change and a .01uF tone control cap - easily reversible.

BlueStrat

a.k.a. "El Guapo" ;)

 

...Better fuzz through science...

 

http://geocities.com/teleman28056/index.html

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I bought a used '77 Gibson ES175-D back in 1979 for $400. My '83 Gibson ES335-Dot cost me $575 brand new. Now I see both models listing at well over $3,000 new. As long as there are people willing to pay outrageous prices, anything and everything will become "collectible".

 

Paul

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Caevan,

You almost have to make two categories, instruments that are sought after by players for their playability and tone, thus increasing demand, and instruments that are sought after by collectors due to rarity and historical significance.
I agree. Some very collectible guitars are not the very best in sound, just a precursor to an era though.

 

When I researched my (Japanese) 1983 Phoenix by Electra, the Electra Forum webmaster mentioned that it was the last year Electra manufactured (under the Electra name) guitars and they were in line to be the next collectible since the Fenders and Gibsons (true vintage) were getting so expensive. I hope he is right! But in any case, it's a good player too.

 

I was looking at Hagstrom (and other European mfgs) when deciding what to get the big, fat LP sound. The European guitars are available at what IMHO are very reasonable prices, though probably not going to be my choice.

 

(More than) my two cents. :rolleyes:

 

Dave

Gotta' geetar... got the amp. There must be SOMEthing else I... "need".
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Originally posted by Tedster Claus:

What a fun discussion this is turning out to be...cool!!!

 

How about Hagstroms? Some well made, some so-so...but some of the European guitars are intriguing as well...

Most Hagstroms fall in the well-made category. I've played several, and the playability was beyond compare. But I can't vouch for the electronics. Somebody else will need to fill that in. I'm still trying to find out just why they went under. Nothing on a couple of websites about them says anything. Last one I played was one I found at a pawnshop, of all places. The body needed some work, and the strings were old, but it played like a dream. I could have bought it a week later, but it was gone! Damn!

 

Whitefang

I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
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Yeah somebody will speculate the value of an old Mustang and make it unreachable to the people it was designed for. I personally think its a shame that instrument prices are through the roof. Props to those who have a collectable, I just don't like the mark ups of guitars that used to be bare bones el cheapo's......ie the Melody Maker, the Telecaster, the SG.......ect ect ect.
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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Originally posted by whitefang:

Originally posted by Tedster Claus:

What a fun discussion this is turning out to be...cool!!!

 

How about Hagstroms? Some well made, some so-so...but some of the European guitars are intriguing as well...

Most Hagstroms fall in the well-made category. I've played several, and the playability was beyond compare. But I can't vouch for the electronics. Somebody else will need to fill that in. I'm still trying to find out just why they went under.

 

Whitefang

.

SSSHHHHHH!!!! HAGS may be one of the few remaining Pawnshop Prizes

;) One of the other guys in the Geezers plays a Hagstrom 335 style - and it is AWESOME. he can squeeze so many tones out of it! :eek: And he picked it up for @$150!

Lynn G
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