pauldil Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 I've got an Ibanez George Benson GB-10 that I hadn't played in a few years. A couple of years ago I opened the case and founds this green ooze on almost all the metal parts of the body - the pickup covers, the trim on the tailpiece, even the screws on the pick guard, all badly corroded. Moisture must have gotten in somehow. I've thought about replacing those parts with new hardware, but I think that might get expensive. I wonder if it's possible to have these pieces stripped and re-plated? Have any of you ever had this done? Is it expensive? Where would I go to do it? Thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitar Geezer Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Originally posted by pauldil: I've got an Ibanez George Benson GB-10 that I hadn't played in a few years. SIGH...That's NOT getting any sympathy from me But seriously, look for a Small Manufacturing Jeweler (should be a few in CHI) and they can probably replate the stuff for you. Lynn G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarzan Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 it may not be moisture. it may have been caused by gasses from the plastic pieces.i recall Dan Erlewine doing a clean up on a gibson that had that happen to. lots of buffing. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193274 rock it, i will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 (When I started this reply, Guitarzan's post had not yet shown up; I got sidetracked with our delayed Thanksgiving stuff (visited family in hospitol yesterday; they're O.K.) and came back to this after awhile, finished it, and posted. Sorry, Guitarzan!) O.K.; I think I know exactly what this is, and I've even seen this on another Ibanez GB- one that I didn't buy because of this, and the fact that the storeowner gave me some bogus B.S. about its cause and wouldn't budge a penny on the ridiculous price- and it's not good news. Does the pickguard, binding/purfling inlay, tailpiece insert, or any other plastic part- in particular, faux-tortoise-shell material- show any signs of deterioration? Flaking, wrinkling, warping, shrinking, bubbling, anything? If so, the material is undergoing a chemical breakdown that was unforeseen way back when some of these materials were concocted, that only time could reveal. As this progresses, gasses are released and contained in the case, that will destroy gold and nickel plating, and perhaps other metals. The worst part is, the plastic-material will have to be replaced, as any parts made of it will eventually go straight to Hell in a handbasket. Not good for binding! I've read of expensive old arch-tops that used this stuff in the binding and backstrip falling apart. (Now you know why I wouldn't shell out over two-grand for that otherwise wonderful GB of my dreams! It would have fast become a moneyhole, and only worth it if the price reflected the cost of innevitible repairs.) The metal parts can be cleaned up, as long as all of the green, corroded stuff is removed completely. Then you can replate it if you see fit, or just leave it that way, with some of the plating gone, for that "vintage" thing. (Some folks'll envy you that "look", though I don't think they'd want to get it the same way!) Keep it OUTSIDE of its case for now, on a stand (one that has inert pads, too; you've probably heard about some stands eating away at lacquer finishes) and out of direct sunlight. This will keep those gasses from further being trapped around the guitar, and keep further metal damage to a minimum. The deterioration of those plastic parts will unfortunately continue, so they will, unfortunately, need to be replaced. The metal parts must be cleaned of the green, and then replated or lightly sealed with a protective coat of lacquer, at your discretion. I first read of this in Dan Erlewine's excellent column in Guitar Player magzine years ago; if I can find out which issue this particular entry was in, I'll post it and PM you with it. Dan himself can be querried via the auspices of the Les Paul Forum ; he hangs- where else?- at "Dan's Guitar Shop", one of the "pubs" there. Perhaps you should contact Ibanez about this, as well; at the very least, they should be able to provide you with correct part numbers and sources, perhaps even more info. They've almost gotta be aware of this phenom, by now. Though I don't think that it's a case of shoddy or shady production by any means; nobody expected this, and I belive that Gibsons, Strombergs, Gretcshes, DeAngelicos, and more have all had these problems. It was the new wonder material at the time, nobody knew that this could even happen! If you do talk to Ibanez, please let me (and all of us) know what they have to say on the matter. Please keep us posted on this; and, if I'm wrong, and it's something simpler and easier to fix, great! I'd be glad for you. Best of luck, I'm sorry if I'm the bearer of bad news... Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitar Geezer Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 If so, the material is undergoing a chemical breakdown that was unforeseen way back when some of these materials were concocted, that only time could reveal. As this progresses, gasses are released and contained in the case, that will destroy gold and nickel plating, and perhaps other metals. The worst part is, the plastic-material will have to be replaced, as any parts made of it will eventually go straight to Hell in a handbasket. Not good for binding! I've read of expensive old arch-tops that used this stuff in the binding and backstrip falling apart. Caevin - great Info. Jaime ( our resident guitar repair guru) just came in and said the same exact thing. he's noticed it on several Joe Pass models that he has had to pass on Any more info on the name of this EVIL PLASTIC, and the time frame it was used. (Just to keep in mind should I ecer have the chance to pick up a Killer Archtop) Lynn G Lynn G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 There's the rub... Dan Erlewine has observed that some guitars will exhibit the breakdown in some of the plastic, but not all of it. Guitars from the same year, same model, same production runs will result in SOME having this and SOME NOT. It doesn't seem to be restricted to any one color or type of "plastic", either! I'd hazard a guess that the root of this is some component material, an ingrediant or catalyst, like a thinner or hardener or something, used by the manufacturers of the raw materials, that may have changed source vendors or variations on the "recipe" from time to time. These Ibanez models seem to be the newest guitars to suffer these symptoms, though that too seems to be all over the board. No particular era or brand is unique to this unfortunate crap! At least it's not like brakes failing or cars exploding in flames or anything; though I'm still sorry for anyone who's guitars develop this slimy green crust causing corrossive gas attack meltdown! Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted November 28, 2003 Author Share Posted November 28, 2003 Thanks so much for the info guys! I was told about the plastic breakdown before, and I actually wrote to Ibanez asking them about it. They came back and said it wasn't true, and that's why I thought it must have been moisture. Based on what you've told me, though, I think you guys are correct and that's exactly what's happened. I'll leave it out of the case and see if I can replace the parts. So far, the binding looks ok, as do the frets. It's just the metal that was gold-plated that has really turned ugly . I bought it new in '78. http://hometown.aol.com/pdl6247/myhomepage/gb2.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Well, on the one hand, it's true, and definitely so, that this happens. Whether or not this is the case with your guitar is another matter, though. I am quite sure that it was the case with the one Ibanez GB that I saw firsthand, as the pickguard, tailpiece inserts, and some of the binding layers ALL were warping, wrinkling, bubbling, and flaking away too, and the gold plating was taking on a gritty, crusty, green lichen-like appearance. That is lame and unbecoming of whomever told you that on behalf of Ibanez; they shouldn't be held responsible for expenses on guitars past their warranty terms, as everything ages and nothing lasts forever. But they should readily offer advisory assistance and customer support, even to un-original owners of older instruments. It is these older instruments that these companies' reputations are built upon, regardless of warranties and sales of used guitars. Suggestions of how best to deal with these problems, parts specs, recommendations for repair persons, parts numbers for replacements, even warnings to those whose guitars are seemingly fine now of what to watch out for, should all be just pouring from their PR/Customer Support personnel! Back to your guitar- does it show any signs of deterioration in the plastic parts anywhere? (It looks like it in the picture, but that's somewhat subjective and hard to tell for sure.) I think that the amount of "moisture" that would be required to do that degree of damage to the metal parts would have had a far more catastrophic effect on the wooden parts of this hollowbodied guitar! When this eventually happens to George Benson's GB's, you can bet they'll fix'em up right, with no B.S.! Maybe, unfortunately, that's what it'll take... Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarzan Posted November 29, 2003 Share Posted November 29, 2003 good recall Caevan, that was my thought about the whole corrosion thing. i over simplified because i needed to take the boys to parent/teacher day at school.if i remember correctly the binding was ok and Dan trimmed the binding off to save it. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193274 rock it, i will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 Good info Mr. O'Shite - I wasn't aware of that. Kinda dampens my desire to buy vintage guitars; particularly the fancy-schmantzy ones with binding, that would be an expensive repair indeed. I wonder if any guitars being manufactured today might still be using any of those materials? Or other plastics that might do something even more sinister, like break down the molecular structure of the wood or its finish - one day you're using it at some important gig, right in the middle of your screamin' solo, the thing turns into a pile of sawdust... Guess I gotta figure out how to put a ventilation system in my guitar cases now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted November 30, 2003 Author Share Posted November 30, 2003 Caevan, the plastic does have some deterioration. Unfortunately, I did not keep the email from Ibanez. I did find the replacement parts on the Ibanez site. No prices, though. I'll start checking at some stores next week. All of a sudden, I've just gotta restore this guitar. I think this will be my christmas present. http://www.ibanez.com/parts/2003_PARTS/el_guitar/parts/images/2TP1GB10.JPG Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 Just for the record, in case I've given the oportunuty for someone to misunderstand me, I think Ibanez GB's are great guitars. The two that've crossed my path both made me want to own them; one had this same nasty problem, and was otherwise very, uhmn, "broken in", very worn. While the other, of a similar "vintage- heh heh- was quite pristine. Just seeing that tailpiece makes me regret not scoring one of them! Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted December 19, 2003 Author Share Posted December 19, 2003 Well, I just ordered a new tailpiece, bridge, pick guard & pickup covers for my Benson from Guitar Center. Total cost was $230. While I was there, I saw a used GB10 in 10 times worse condition than mine. It had one Bartolini pickup instead of the originals, and the wiring was not connected, it was just hanging from the pickup. Also, the pick guard was missing. The body was all scratched up, had all the holes from the missing parts, and the neck looked really worn. At first, from where I was standing, I thought the price tag said $599, which I thought was too high for it in that condition. But when I took a closer look I couldnt believe that they were actually asking $1599 for it ! I seriously doubt they'll get even half that. Other than the gold-plate metal problems, the body & neck on mine are in excellent shape. Maybe after I restore it, Ill sell it for (Dr. Evil voice) One Million Dollars!!! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitar Geezer Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Thanks for the update...Wondering what ever became of this thread One million sounds good to me Lynn G Lynn G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Originally posted by pauldil: Well, I just ordered a new tailpiece, bridge, pick guard & pickup covers for my Benson from Guitar Center... PaulWhich GC did you visit? (I worked at Central Chicago in late '91, early '92, when it was located on Clark St., just north of Belmont. Lived around the corner from the original North location on Milwaukee Ave. Before they moved it to Arlington Heights.) It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted December 19, 2003 Author Share Posted December 19, 2003 Neil, the one on Clark St. moved 2 or 3 years ago to a bigger spot on Halsted St. between Fullerton & Diversey. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Maybe you could sell all the replaced parts from your GB to them for putting on that ol' derelict in the store. At least it'd be a match! A "Relic" GB! For... well, a stupidly overblown price. Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted April 25, 2004 Author Share Posted April 25, 2004 Well, it's been quite a while, but the parts for my GB10 have been slowly trickling in over the last several months. I got 2 new pickups, a new bridge, a new tailpiece, and today the new pickguard finaly came in . I just picked it up and I can't wait to have all the parts replaced and get the guitar back to its original conditon. Unfortunately I have to go out of town on business for several days starting tomorrow, so I won't have a chance to have it done until after next week. I'll try to get some before and after pictures posted once it's complete. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted May 26, 2004 Author Share Posted May 26, 2004 I picked up my newly refurbished GB10 today!! I had all the metal parts replaced. It looks brand new and feels & plays great ! I picked it up during lunch, but right now I'm back at work, so I can't play it. It's driving me crazy to have it right here and not be able to play. I may just have to leave early today. I can't wait to get it home! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Pics and soundlcips! We demands them! Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoes Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 I've gotta see what this looks like all cleaned up. I read through this thread and saw the images of the corrosion! That was some nasty slime eating away there. Should have been a factory recall on those parts or at least a great deal on replacing them for you. Ya.. it never happens that way does it. Let's see what she looks like all polished up. I still think guitars are like shoes, but louder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted May 27, 2004 Author Share Posted May 27, 2004 Here are some before & after pictures. I wish I had a better camera... GB10 Before & After Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billster Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 Originally posted by pauldil: Here are some before & after pictures. I wish I had a better camera... GB10 Before & After PaulThat's a sweet piece. I am now officially torn between seeking one of those or a 335 for my jazzbo excursions. Buy my CD on CD Baby! Bill Hartzell - the website MySpace?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 pauldil- that's beautiful! You must be psyched! Now, we wanna hear it, too! billster- those GBs are seriously "jazz"-sounding, especially with flatwounds; moreso than an ES-335, in my humble but honest opinion. Of course, I'd say that 'jazz iz az jazz doez', that is, anybody could play convincing jazz on any axe, with a deft touch... But a guitar can affect how you play, and the times I've picked up a good GB, it made me want to roll off the highs a bit and play lots of ffaaatt notes 'n' chords! Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted May 27, 2004 Author Share Posted May 27, 2004 Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite: pauldil- that's beautiful! You must be psyched! Now, we wanna hear it, too! billster- those GBs are seriously "jazz"-sounding, especially with flatwounds; moreso than an ES-335, in my humble but honest opinion. Of course, I'd say that 'jazz iz az jazz doez', that is, anybody could play convincing jazz on any axe, with a deft touch... But a guitar can affect how you play, and the times I've picked up a good GB, it made me want to roll off the highs a bit and play lots of ffaaatt notes 'n' chords!Thanks Caevan. I'll try to record something in the next day or so. Billster, Ive got both a GB10 and a 335. I got the 335 back when I used to do jobbing gigs and needed a guitar to play both rock & jazz. It's more versatile than a strictly hollow or solid body. And with light strings on it I could get a fairly decent jazz tone. It also gets a great bluesy tone. I got the GB10 new in 78, when my only other guitar was a gold top Les Paul. I was really getting into jazz at the time and wanted a jazz box, but I didnt want a huge guitar. I was so used the size of my Les Paul that all the arch tops I tried felt way too big. Since the GB10 is shaped similar to a Les Paul, its very comfortable and light. And it gets a great warm, full sound. It doesnt handle higher volumes like the 335 and it doesnt sound good distorted. I look at it as more of a jazz box. IMHO, if youre looking for more of a jazz/arch-top type of sound, the GB10 is going to get you closer tha the 335. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billster Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 Paul: Thanks for the tips on how versatile a 335 is compared to your Benson. I'm thinking right now that I'm happy with my SG for jazz/rock type stuff (check out "Windows" on my music post site - plug, plug, plug), but that will never approach the big-box ES-175 type sounds for real straight-up jazz. Do you think the Benson sounds bad on overdrive because of the body or the pickups? We have now officially hi-jacked this thread to the "What kind of guitar should I buy?" Buy my CD on CD Baby! Bill Hartzell - the website MySpace?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted May 28, 2004 Author Share Posted May 28, 2004 Here's a short tune I did with the GB10 this morning. It's a transcription of Wes Montgomery's Tear it Down that I'm working on. I know...needs lots more work, but at least you can hear how the GB10 sounds. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMcGuitar Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Originally posted by pauldil: Here's a short tune I did with the GB10 this morning. It's a transcription of Wes Montgomery's Tear it Down that I'm working on. I know...needs lots more work, but at least you can hear how the GB10 sounds. Paul May all your thoughts be random! - Neil www.McFaddenArts.com www.MikesGarageRocks.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 pauldil- Ibanez (or the Vintage Guitar Dealers Association ) should pay you for "Tear it Down". Between that clip (excellent playing and tone! ), and those pics, I want a dark sunburst GB of my own! Whadja string 'er up with? Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted May 29, 2004 Author Share Posted May 29, 2004 Thanks Neil & Caevan . I've got D'addario Jazz Lights on it (12-52). Billster, my guess is that it's a little of both body & pickups. You should really try one out. I had forgotten how much fun this guitar was to play Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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