Pre-CBS, CBS, POST CBS......

[webe123]

OK, I know that CBS bought fender on Jan 4th 1965 for $13 milliom dollars and sold it in 1985. So I guess all fenders made before Jan. 4th 1965 is Pre-CBS? and the CBS era owning fender would be from 1965 to 1985. and the Post-CBS era would be 1985 to present time. OK then, that brings me to a very good question.......if the 1980 JAPANESE strats are so wanted by musicians....WHY is that? Because I have heard stories about how the quality overall for fender went DOWN when CBS took over the company! I know they were made in Japan, but (CBS owned) fender still owned the company and was still responsible for making the decisions that affected the production of the guitars! So what is so special about the 1980 Japanese strats?? Do people mean the strats that were built AFTER 1985 when CBS sold the company?? Of course, Pre-CBS models were without question quality instruments.....but it just makes me wonder what is so special about these Jap starts?? Also, how would you rate the quality of strats made today, AFTER CBS has sold the company?? better....or worse???

[Blue Strat]

I think the thing was that quality was allowed to slip at the time that CBS took over from Leo Fender, but was brought back up to Leo's standards in a couple of years. By then Fender's reputation had taken a hit, and it's been a long hard road to recovery.

[webe123]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

I think the thing was that quality was allowed to slip at the time that CBS took over from Leo Fender, but was brought back up to Leo's standards in a couple of years. By then Fender's reputation had taken a hit, and it's been a long hard road to recovery.

Yeah everyone I have talked to that pretty much recalls CBS taking over from Leo, say that the quality went way down because of the transition! But todays fenders seem to be doing alright in way of quality. They say the highway 51 strats are very well made US guitars and kind of like the faded models of gibson cost around 600 dollars!

[michael saulnier]

Some of the deticated Fender forums probably have more "experts" on various models... but it's my understanding that the reason the Japanese models from various periods are still in demand is that they are both modestly priced, and made with great quality and care...

 

Fender STILL has a manufacturing setup in Japan, and the guitars made there STILL are considered high quality and even with the import shipping costs, a good value.

 

I think one of our members who lives in Japan... now SkipClone1, has at least one Japanese made strat and he's said good things about it.

 

The guys at this forum about Fenders seem to know a lot about it and have many members who have imported guitars directly from the factory.

 

guitplayer

[Guitarzan]

i had a 85 japanese fender strat and i totally had it apart to do mods( added a humbucker and locking trem). i was blown away by the quality. to put the neck in you had to slide it straight in (it was a perfect fit) if you didn't hold it perfectly straight it would jam. it couldn't have been any tighter.it was built like a brick. and felt like heaven. i had my hands on a few friends strats built around the same time(american models) and they were questionable on the build quality: big old bathtub routing for the pickup area, sloppy neck pockets and cheesy fret work. i got my japanese strat for 550 in 85 and an american went for 1500 in my neck of the woods. thats a big difference. the only thing the american had on mine was the pickups. on the other hand my fellow guitar player in our band has a 2001 strat deluxe, and it is immaculate. i played it the other night for an extended period and now i am wishing i could get a new strat. man the neck is like heaven. the only negative thing i could say about my buds strat is fender should use longer screws for the strap lock pins, his fell out within 2 months. i think fender is making awesome strats now regardless of some of the past problems.

[Gabriel E.]

So what is so special about the 1980 Japanese strats?? Do people mean the strats that were built AFTER 1985 when CBS sold the company??

No. They mean the first Japanese-made Squires from the early-mid 80s. As guitarzan pointed out, the quality control and construction techniques on these guitars were superior to the American models.

 

After the CBS bought Fender, quality control slid gradually. Towards the late-70s, Fender guitars had a reputation for being spotty. The Japanese Fenders were the first "good" Fenders built in a long time. That's why they are sought after.

 

Note that it IS possible to find American Fenders from that period that are good. The Japanese ones are more of a sure bet though.

[Dawill]

In 1981, my best friend gave me an early 70,s strat (1972 I think). He had bought it from a friend who wanted to sound like EVH and had put a very hot DM humbucker in it. He had taken out the original pickups and replaced the pickguard so the guitar only had the DM in it. The guitar was unusable for the kind of music both he and I played at the time. I asked my friend if he had gotten the original pickups and pickguard when he bought the guitar, and he had. I put the originals back in and it has been my main performing axe ever since. I love it! It has the best tone of any strat I have ever played. I don't know if it is because of the routing for the humbucker, but I don't care!

[Caevan O’Shite]

It really boils down to what works for you as a player. What I think is a perfect rendition of the Strat theme and what you think is may well be two very different things, to the point of seeming like different guitars altogether.

 

I, for one, have not liked most of the '70s Fenders (and Gibsons) very much. When I've gotten to play original '50s models, I've liked a lot about most of'em. Same goes for many '90s to present models of Fenders and Gibsons.

 

Probably the two most outstanding "new" Fenders that I've played were a gold-sparkle Don Rich commemorative Telecaster (a "Custom Shop" model, perhaps?) and a Custom Shop "Relic" Stratocaster in the "Mary Kay" blonde-with-gold-hardware getup. (It had nothing to do with the "Relic" artificial aging, I don't care for that kind of thing too much, but it was a damn nice playing and sounding guitar, both "plugged" and "unplugged"!)

[BiC]

As most of you know by now, I owned a 1985 MIJ Contemporary Standard 22. It was stolen in 2000.

 

But I am "on the hunt" for an exact model 27-4302.

 

Why? Why not just invest in a NEW one? I'll tell you, "why"... it's because I absolutely loved that Strat! I had it for 15 years before it was stolen, and it was a "workhorse".

 

VERY smooth playing... an axe which "molded" to my hands. Hopefully I can find another!

 

Peace

[jetboy]

I think what most strat guys would say about the jap strats of that era (mid 80's) is that the jap[anese factory was very conscious of making the best possible exact replica of the 50's fender axe's. It's not that they are better than the classic's, it's more that they were really trying to capture the magic of those guitars and felt like if they copy make an exact copy it would be close. The quires from that time are a good example, they were veru good build quality but imported for a short time. Why? Because they were generally a better made guitar than the us made fenders at the time. They were only imported until fender could get it's low price goods on the market. After that they were only sold in the Asian market except under grey market.

 

The jap 50's replicas are excellent because of the same concern's the Japanese builder's examined the old fender's and did a whale of a job copying every exact detail and then sold them for less than us fender, who were at that time not making their relpicas to the exact some standard, they were building their replica's to a more generalized spec, and selling them for more $.

 

The diference is the attitude of the builders, at the time the Japanese build was a labor of love and respect and us fender was profit. Tell me which axe you would rather have for the same $

 

that is not to say that things are that way now but back then they were.

[jetboy]

I think what most strat guys would say about the jap strats of that era (mid 80's) is that the jap[anese factory was very conscious of making the best possible exact replica of the 50's fender axe's. It's not that they are better than the classic's, it's more that they were really trying to capture the magic of those guitars and felt like if they copy make an exact copy it would be close. The quires from that time are a good example, they were veru good build quality but imported for a short time. Why? Because they were generally a better made guitar than the us made fenders at the time. They were only imported until fender could get it's low price goods on the market. After that they were only sold in the Asian market except under grey market.

 

The jap 50's replicas are excellent because of the same concern's the Japanese builder's examined the old fender's and did a whale of a job copying every exact detail and then sold them for less than us fender, who were at that time not making their relpicas to the exact some standard, they were building their replica's to a more generalized spec, and selling them for more $.

 

The diference is the attitude of the builders, at the time the Japanese build was a labor of love and respect and us fender was profit. Tell me which axe you would rather have for the same $

 

that is not to say that things are that way now but back then they were.

[webe123]

Originally posted by jetboy:

I think what most strat guys would say about the jap strats of that era (mid 80's) is that the jap[anese factory was very conscious of making the best possible exact replica of the 50's fender axe's. It's not that they are better than the classic's, it's more that they were really trying to capture the magic of those guitars and felt like if they copy make an exact copy it would be close. The quires from that time are a good example, they were veru good build quality but imported for a short time. Why? Because they were generally a better made guitar than the us made fenders at the time. They were only imported until fender could get it's low price goods on the market. After that they were only sold in the Asian market except under grey market.

 

The jap 50's replicas are excellent because of the same concern's the Japanese builder's examined the old fender's and did a whale of a job copying every exact detail and then sold them for less than us fender, who were at that time not making their relpicas to the exact some standard, they were building their replica's to a more generalized spec, and selling them for more $.

 

The diference is the attitude of the builders, at the time the Japanese build was a labor of love and respect and us fender was profit. Tell me which axe you would rather have for the same $

 

that is not to say that things are that way now but back then they were.

Yeah, I have a US made fender 57 reissue and I love that guitar! I am getting a Les Paul Studio, but it WON'T replace my strat, it will just be a guitar that I use in conjunction with my strat! I may check out the jap strats someday....could use one to practice with.

[doc taz]

Well, I'm just glad after all the shenanigans that Fender's been through, they can still produce quality instruments on every price level. I can walk into a store now, and find that most of their stuff, regardless of price, is usually worth taking home. Couldn't say that before 1990 IMHO.

 

Of course, I wish they didn't have to buy Jackson, Gretsch, and Guild, among other companies. In a way, if it does help improve those brands' visibility and individual flavor while maintaining high standards, then I'm all for it.

[alguit]

My first Strat was a '79; awfully heavy, glassy-sounding pickups, thick poly finish...on a sentimental level, I love it-it was my first-but I rarely play it.

 

On the other hand, I've played some MIJ Strats that had me spellbound.

 

I don't think I have much new to add here that others haven't already said well- the Jap strats of this period generally were wonderful guitars, and although sometimes it bothers some folks that for a time period they were superior to the US models and the only choice for a while, without them and their quality, investors might not have bothered to acquire the company and restart production in the US.

 

Now, here's something that hasn't been mentioned yet. Those interested in used MIJ Fenders should check out guitargai.com. He posts really nice photos of the MIJ Fenders he has for sale, and of interest, he sells used Orvilles - Gibson's MIJ equivalent to Fender, and a company of which many people in the states seem unaware. I played an Orville Les Paul that stood up against any modern LP I've tried, including my 7.8 lb '59 reissue, which is a killer guitar.

[freddynl]

Well what I missed in most comments is SOUND difference.

The early Fenders 1965 or earlier have a complete different sound as their later models, this includes the reissues and japanese ones.

I compared a lot of them side by side.

 

I don't know why (in other words what is the exact technical difference besides old p.u.) but the old fenders sound much better for MY Taste.

[george costanza]

All the comments so far have concerned the guitars or pickups.

I wonder whether the controversy extended to early CBS-era amplifiers, too.

 

I'm 50 years old & at the time of this controversy (late 1960s/early 70s) was a beginner.

I wonder what the opinions of those who been around for a while at that time (& might be familiar with the alledged, um, individuality (& I mean variability not industrial distinction) of Fender products in the early days) might've been, compared to those who'd dealt with the seasoned instruments & amps that were available to them...?

[Although I'm sure that there are not many pros from the 50s/60s here often.]

 

Certainly it's a historical (or vintage market) issue now; I think most guitar construction problems occured in mass-production transitions involving shifts from well-trained, involved workers to those hired in large numbers to fill production needs.

In our time the regularity of CAD methods makes it increasingly hard to find a really poorly built instrument.

[Gabriel E.]

All the comments so far have concerned the guitars or pickups.

I wonder whether the controversy extended to early CBS-era amplifiers, too.

It certainly did - "blackface" Fender Amps from the mid-60s have always been more sought after than the "silverface" amps Fender introduced in the late 60s.

 

This has less to do with quality of construction (obviously there are a TON of silverface Fenders that still work great after 30+ years) than with circuit design. Seems that it had more to do with CBS management not understanding the market and directing the engineers to build more powerful amps that didn't distort easily since "distortion is a flaw".

 

Players thought otherwise and held onto the blackface amps.

[webe123]

Originally posted by BiC:

As most of you know by now, I owned a 1985 MIJ Contemporary Standard 22. It was stolen in 2000.

 

But I am "on the hunt" for an exact model 27-4302.

 

Why? Why not just invest in a NEW one? I'll tell you, "why"... it's because I absolutely loved that Strat! I had it for 15 years before it was stolen, and it was a "workhorse".

 

VERY smooth playing... an axe which "molded" to my hands. Hopefully I can find another!

 

Peace

BUT.....Even IF you find the exact same make and model....that is no guarantee that it will feel like the one that was stolen! It might have the same woods, electronics, etc. but there really is no easy answer to why one instrument sounds different from another made at the same factory on the same day...etc. I wish you luck in finding one, but even if you do remember that different things can affect a guitars tone. Wood is a fickle thing!

[fantasticsound]

What hasn't been mentioned is that companies in the mid to late 1960's decided diversification was paramount to large corporation success. In the process, the largest guitar companies, whose sales had blossomed with the age of electric guitars, became prime targets for corporate buyouts. CBS bought Fender, and another company, Norlin, bought Gibson.

 

Of course, when these conglomerates bought companies they immediately assumed they knew how to streamline the smaller companies' management, design and production. They knew nothing of instrument construction, but assumed that cheap parts would save money without a significant change in quality. They were dead wrong.

 

Both Fender and Gibson suffered at the micro-managing hands of the corporate parents. That's not to say there weren't decent products manufactured during these eras, but they were few and far between, with very spotty quality control.

 

And remember, the wonderful 1970's LP or CBS-era Strat or Tele are the survivors of 30+ years of play and, in most cases, superior care by their owners. The guitar equivalent of the cream rising to the top. They're the good instruments in a predominantly mediocre lot.

 

So don't dismiss instruments from these eras without playing them. You may find a relatively low cost gem.

[george costanza]

Likewise Vox & Ampeg are examples of successful (in both meanings of the term) companies that up til purchase by larger, no-music oriented corporations had been directed by the original designers 7 manufacturers & whose products were revamped (with productions being relocated, too).

This is the relevance of my mention of how production shifted from a smaller group of, perhaps more carefully trained, perhaps more interested workers to a larger, more-rapidly trained workforce as a key cause of such "quality drift".

[fantasticsound]

Agreed, George.

[strat0124]

Originally posted by Gabriel E. Vil:

All the comments so far have concerned the guitars or pickups.

I wonder whether the controversy extended to early CBS-era amplifiers, too.

It certainly did - "blackface" Fender Amps from the mid-60s have always been more sought after than the "silverface" amps Fender introduced in the late 60s.

 

This has less to do with quality of construction (obviously there are a TON of silverface Fenders that still work great after 30+ years) than with circuit design. Seems that it had more to do with CBS management not understanding the market and directing the engineers to build more powerful amps that didn't distort easily since "distortion is a flaw".

 

Players thought otherwise and held onto the blackface amps.

Actually I've heard this argument mostly applied to Fender amps rather than guitars.

On Silverface amps. I had a Super Six, which was a silverface, and it walked the dog. They still sound great, and are point to point wired. To me its the best deal out there with respect to vintage gear. A super reverb, twin, Super six, or whathaveyou.....from the silver face era.....are GREAT amps. I've never understood the dislike of those amps by some. And you know, I gather that not many people, in fact very few, could tell the difference in tone.

[Dave da Dude]

BiC,

As most of you know by now, I owned a 1985 MIJ Contemporary Standard 22. It was stolen in 2000.

webe123,

BUT.....Even IF you find the exact same make and model....that is no guarantee that it will feel like the one that was stolen! It might have the same woods, electronics, etc. but there really is no easy answer to why one instrument sounds different from another made at the same factory on the same day...etc. I wish you luck in finding one, but even if you do remember that different things can affect a guitars tone. Wood is a fickle thing!

BiC, This may be a fruitless search with the outcome, IF one is found, unsure. Try a Highway 1 Strat Or else! Or else what? They would "lose face", or be dishonered, the worst thing that can happen to a Japanese man at that time. However, times are slowly changing, not necessarily for the good.

 

Dave

[DIAMOND DUST]

I had a "65 blackface BASSMAN and A "68 silverface BANDMASTER. Belive it or not the "68" Bandmaster sounded better. I asked a few AMP guys, and they said that the Circuit design of the "68 BANDMASTER was almost identical to the "59 BASSMAN. I know that VICTORIA uses this circuit for their best amps.

[Dave da Dude]

Diamond Dust,

I had a "65 blackface BASSMAN and A "68 silverface BANDMASTER. Belive it or not the "68" Bandmaster sounded better. I asked a few AMP guys, and they said that the Circuit design of the "68 BANDMASTER was almost identical to the "59 BASSMAN. I know that VICTORIA uses this circuit for their best amps.

Sometimes the best new idea is an old idea. Or, "Don't re-invent the wheel." Or, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[Darklava]

I wasn't happy when CBS lost the NFL a few

years back.But it's back oooooooooooops sorry!

I always liked the big pig head strat,and

the pro-sonic amp.What ever happen to that?