Hip-Hop, ARRRRRRGH

[RichardAshkenazi]

Originally posted by revolead:

I've never liked rap. Maybe has something to do with the fact that I'm a real musician.

I'm a real musician, too, and I like a lot of rap. It's got groove. Interesting rhythm is almost always appealing to me.

[henryrobinett]

I'd keep the I'm a real musician so I don't like rap out of the discission. I know a lot of real musicians who like it. There's an open canvas for trying new and original ideas. You can accept a lot of polytonality, for instance,in rap with no questions asked. Deep, deep grooves. There are some things to admire, as there are in any music. Hey, I can't use the language and the violence, but not all rap has those.

 

I'll go back to writing music now. Semi-lurk mode back on.

[henryrobinett]

Sorry I haven't read all the posts. But one thing, Rap has very little NECESSARY use for guitars. I mean you CAN utilize it quite a bit if you want to create some grooves yourself, like how DJs have been incorporated in a lot of rock music, etc. But since it relies on samples, normally accepted musicianship isn't a requirement, which is what I think revolead was saying.

 

So why would a GUITARIST, who loves to listen to guitar music, listen to rap? You won't find much of a role for it there, unless you just wanted to work on your dope, slammin', skankin', funk chank.

 

Back to writing - I promise.

[RichardAshkenazi]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

So why would a GUITARIST, who loves to listen to guitar music, listen to rap?

What, are there actually people out there who only listen to music with guitar in it? That seems rather limiting...

[strat0124]

.....in Austin making a statement like that! I understand what you meant, but thats odd for one of the guitar capitals of the world!

[revolead]

Sorry guys, wasn't meaning to be offensive if you play guitar and like rap. But I think henry hit the nail on the head about the musicianship involved.

If you like rap, fine. But I hate it and that's never going to change. I guess that's more of my point. And its not because I'm racist, discriminatory, or whatever bull$1ht people try to come up with. I just don't see any talent in it. It's poetry, not music.

[RichardAshkenazi]

Austin likes to call itself the "Live Music Capitol of the World," but that's not true anymore at all. The only ones who still think that are the Chamber of Commerce. Too many of the venues downtown have become shot bars. Bah! (Sure it has a guitar legacy, what with SRV and all, but I don't think it's quite as important as some think it is.)

 

Anyway, yeah, so if you don't like hip hop, whatever. But it's not a genre lacking in musicianship.

[revolead]

Richard, I get the impression you don't get along with me very well.

So let's just save some trouble and forget the rap being music or not argument. It's obvious we both have our minds made up. No sense in trying to change it. Here's to a truce.

[RichardAshkenazi]

What, we were at war? I was just defending a genre from which I've gotten great joy recently. It wasn't personal.

 

If a truce is needed, though, then sure.

[Marc_Lafrance]

Most of the new bands that I like are some small groups from Canada. Cuff The Duke just came to the sault and I was blown away. I really like these guys. It's kind of a rockin' country sound that they have which I normally don't like but there is just something about these guys. Here's a link to some of their recent studio stuff if any one is interested. Cuff The Duke (Sorry if this is spam).

 

I've also been listening to alot of danny michel recently. He's an independent Canadian artist. My guitar teacher taught me some of his tunes and got me hooked. He picked me up a copy of one of his cd's when he went down to Toronto. Here's a link to his page as well. Danny Michel Again sorry if this is spam but I just wanna show you some of the new stuff that I've been listening to.

 

But sadly none of this would probaply ever get played on the radio just because it isn't "pop" music. The only good radio stations I have in the Sault are the bear which is a classic rock station and the college radio station from sault michigan.

[Marc_Lafrance]

I'm bad with these message boards and all these double posts and what not.

[doc taz]

Dr. Taz likes the rap... does that mean I should throw away my prog/metal/classical/blues/jazz/fusion/acoustic/oldies/standards music collection?

 

Umm... NO!!! You don't like it, leave it alone. Which reminds me, Pantera's "Five Minutes Alone" would sound great as a rap... sorta. At least it grooves along nicely. I mean, check out the main riff to that song. *sings main riff* There are a few notes in there that sound like record scratches.

 

Does this mean that I've been dumbed down as a person? You decide. First person that figures it out better buy me a six pack of Yuengling porter beer for tonight's World Series game. And a babe of my choice.

[Franknputer]

There's good rap & bad rap, just like any other genre. A lot of guys in the came have a lot of musical talent, too.

 

I think the real problem within rap lies with the proliferation of the gangsta & pimpin' crap. Sure, the stories need to be told - but it does matter how you do the telling.

 

I always respected Ice-T for pointing out that there's a price (sometimes a really high one) to being a gangster. (I do have issues with his views on pimping...but that's not the point here.) Too many guys, though, just jump on the bandwagon, & it's all about being strapped, throwing around money, screwing over women, etc. etc. - and from what I've heard, a lot of those guys' tracks don't have a lot to offer musically, either.

 

But you can't discount the whole thing by any means. There's lots of good shit out there (and it's a damn shame that radio ignores it in favor of the cheap stuff) that'll really expand your musical horizons, if you let it.

[Gabriel E.]

A sampler is simply a tool that can be used creatively or poorly. The "sample a famous song to get an easy hit" thing was started by MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice. P.Diddy and others have continued this and I agree that it results in bad music.

 

If you want to listen to sampling used really creatively, listen to "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back" by Public Enemy. That's an awesome record that holds it's own against any other music out there. Also check out Massive Attack, John Oswald, Dan The Automator and DJ Shadow for really interesting and musical sampling.

 

I also think that sampling something is more honest than simply stealing it. Led Zeppelin stole Willie Dixon's "You Need Love" and George Harrison ripped the Shirelle's "He's So Fine" without acnowledging the original writer.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by Gabriel E. Vil:

A sampler is simply a tool that can be used creatively or poorly. The "sample a famous song to get an easy hit" thing was started by MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice. P.Diddy and others have continued this and I agree that it results in bad music.

 

If you want to listen to sampling used really creatively, listen to "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back" by Public Enemy. That's an awesome record that holds it's own against any other music out there. Also check out Massive Attack, John Oswald, Dan The Automator and DJ Shadow for really interesting and musical sampling.

 

I also think that sampling something is more honest than simply stealing it. Led Zeppelin stole Willie Dixon's "You Need Love" and George Harrison ripped the Shirelle's "He's So Fine" without acnowledging the original writer.

APPLES&ORANGES-HOE LOT OF LOVIN

[Mike Gug]

Ah... the horse is dead.

[revolead]

Originally posted by RichardAshkenazi:

What, we were at war? I was just defending a genre from which I've gotten great joy recently. It wasn't personal.

 

If a truce is needed, though, then sure.

No hard feelings Richard. Just seems like for some reason we always disagree on things. I don't want to have hard feelings with anyone in this forum, especially because we're all like family.

[Blue Strat]

Good Rap: House of Pain, Cypress Hill, Clutch.

 

Bad Rap: Vanilla Ice.

 

Clutch has some awesome rap lyrics in their songs "Careful with that Mic" and "Escape from the Prison Planet", as well as some killer riffs. Probably my favorite new band, in addition to System of a Down. Of course, Clutch isn't really a rap band...

[skipclone 1]

I wonder if this (the poor guys not being able to afford instruments) is a hook in itself.

 

I am interest in understanding the music, so I can understand my son. Maybe an impossible task, my father certainly found it so, but I'd like to try.

 

skipclone1,

It`s certainly not my thing, but if I think about it, there`s a long tradition of people who are surrounded by violent circumstances making poetry in one form or another. It`s an outlet for part on one`s soul which may not be available otherwise. Hip-hop is mostly never going to be pretty and euphonious, that`s not the environment it`s coming from.

Poetry is one thing, music another. Maybe it's a valid art form, just not music? Seriously! It has a beat, but so does poetry, just look at the "Beatnicks" of the early '50's(?). Used a bongo drum, had a beat, some rythm, but no instruments. But they didn't "cop" to doing it because they didn't have the money to buy instruments.

 

Again, I'm not bashing (well maybe I was initially in tone), just trying to understand. But, pop music without a guitar!?

 

Hey Richard, I'm not trying to "bash" the genre, just understand the REAL reason for things and not just some "posturing" to add to marketing appeal, as in "Gee, we're just to poo® to afford real instruments like you "establishment" rich guys."

 

Dave[/QB]

 

If all that is just a marketing hook, it has been done-can you say `sex pistols`? `the clash`? what was their attitude if not, `we got no future like you establishment types? we don`t need no steenkin music lesons`?

[Dave da Dude]

WOW!

 

I didn't realize that this was going to turn into such a controversial thread. I was just trying to understand it.

 

And, actually, it has helped me to understand it. It's not my cup of tea, but SRV, EVH, EC are not my son's cup of tea either.

 

Thaks for all the in, hic .. in .. put.

 

D, D, D ... ave

[snoz65]

I admit my reply was a little biased in that I don't identify with the lack of guitars and the American street culture (whatever that is). I know that I have only heard the top 40 crap.

However, It's dissapointing to see young kids here dressing and acting like New York gangsters because they are so influenced by TV, the foreign culture is transplanted into my own country but what we get is the media marketed version. It sells Adidas and Nike.

I can respect the opinion that there is a more 'real' version of Hip-Hop but all I see is the hype. This must be very damaging to the 'real' version.

 

So who were the first rappers?

 

I am of the opinion that they were the Square Dance callers, you know, 'swing yer pardners' and all that. So maybe rap is not that new.

[skipclone 1]

You should get a load of the hip-hoppers here. Some of them were my students a year ot two ago.

It`s weird, my folks have made sure we lived in good neighborhoods since I was a kid, to get themselves and myself away from street culture and make sure we got a decent education. I`ve worked my ass off for artistic success, and here are the same type of guys who used to beat me up in high school all over the radio and the movies.

Don`t even get me started on that shit...

[RichardAshkenazi]

Originally posted by revolead:

I don't want to have hard feelings with anyone in this forum, especially because we're all like family.

Depending on who's family we're comparing it to...

[TieDyedDevil]

A lot of it is selective memory and reinforcement. Some of my favorite music came out of the late 1960s and early 1970s when I was a teenager. However, I still remember that even then 90% of what was on the radio was crap. The difference between then and now is that I'm no longer willing to wade through the 90% to get to the 10% that's good. I just don't have as much free time, and I'd rather spend my time playing.

[exactopposite]

At the age of 26, i am a part of the first generation to grow up hearing rap music all my life. i am a rapper as well as a guitar player. i have heard rap all my life and so the whole question of "is it music" doesn't appear to be relavant to me. as with anyforem of musi, rap cannot be judged by what is on the radio. i am a rapper and i don't listen to rap on the radio unless i'm in the car with someone else driving.

 

rap has been around for at least 30 years now so i don't understand why people still treat it like a fad. it's not going anywhere. there is no explanation needed as to why there is a shortage of live instrumentation in rap. it has been working quite effectivelly the way it is. i can be done with the instruments but it can also be done without it. rap is repetative because it needs to be for the lyrics to work properly. most musicians aren't willing to play the kind of loops that rappers want to rap on. trust me i know this first hand because i have rapped in a band before. you can set up a beat on a drum machine and it can play for as long as u want it to, but not many musicians are willing to play the same loop for 5 minits. in the band i was in we broke it up by having guitar solos between the verses instead of hooks.

 

i grew up on rap, funk, r&b, blues, and various other forms of soul music. i didn't hear much guitar based music in growing up like most of the other people here did, so the lack of guitars isn't a concern to me. i personally prefer to rap with a live band but it can work just as well without it.

 

anyway, rap is no more or less valid than any other genre. judging rap by what you hear on the radio is like judging jazz by kenny g, or judging rock by korn. there are plenty of rappers including myself who have ADULT lyrics. for those interested listen to people like the roots, gza, common (formelly known as common sense), mos def (who plays the bass), talib kweli, aesop rock............just too many to name.

 

i'm not expecting to make anyone who doesn't like rap to start liking it, but there is no need to bash something just because u don't like it. for that matter i don't really dig rock music that much, buti still respect it as a form of expression. rap deserves the same respect.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by exactopposite:

At the age of 26, i am a part of the first generation to grow up hearing rap music all my life. i am a rapper as well as a guitar player. i have heard rap all my life and so the whole question of "is it music" doesn't appear to be relavant to me. as with anyforem of musi, rap cannot be judged by what is on the radio. i am a rapper and i don't listen to rap on the radio unless i'm in the car with someone else driving.

 

rap has been around for at least 30 years now so i don't understand why people still treat it like a fad. it's not going anywhere. there is no explanation needed as to why there is a shortage of live instrumentation in rap. it has been working quite effectivelly the way it is. i can be done with the instruments but it can also be done without it. rap is repetative because it needs to be for the lyrics to work properly. most musicians aren't willing to play the kind of loops that rappers want to rap on. trust me i know this first hand because i have rapped in a band before. you can set up a beat on a drum machine and it can play for as long as u want it to, but not many musicians are willing to play the same loop for 5 minits. in the band i was in we broke it up by having guitar solos between the verses instead of hooks.

 

i grew up on rap, funk, r&b, blues, and various other forms of soul music. i didn't hear much guitar based music in growing up like most of the other people here did, so the lack of guitars isn't a concern to me. i personally prefer to rap with a live band but it can work just as well without it.

 

anyway, rap is no more or less valid than any other genre. judging rap by what you hear on the radio is like judging jazz by kenny g, or judging rock by korn. there are plenty of rappers including myself who have ADULT lyrics. for those interested listen to people like the roots, gza, common (formelly known as common sense), mos def (who plays the bass), talib kweli, aesop rock............just too many to name.

 

i'm not expecting to make anyone who doesn't like rap to start liking it, but there is no need to bash something just because u don't like it. for that matter i don't really dig rock music that much, buti still respect it as a form of expression. rap deserves the same respect.

You go on witcha bad self!

U R CORRECTAMUNDO!

[Dave da Dude]

exactopposite,

i didn't hear much guitar based music in growing up like most of the other people here did, so the lack of guitars isn't a concern to me.

I mentioned the lack of guitar as a joke! Beethoven and Bach seemed to do okay without a guitar. It was a joke!!!

 

Also, how come all the talk is about rap? I asked about Hip-Hop, Rap and the combination Rap Hip-Hop. Only one of the two genres is getting any talk. What about Hip-Hop?

 

Is this horse dead yet? This is a JOKE!!!!

 

Dave

[Darklava]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

exactopposite,

i didn't hear much guitar based music in growing up like most of the other people here did, so the lack of guitars isn't a concern to me.

I mentioned the lack of guitar as a joke! Beethoven and Bach seemed to do okay without a guitar. It was a joke!!!

 

Also, how come all the talk is about rap? I asked about Hip-Hop, Rap and the combination Rap Hip-Hop. Only one of the two genres is getting any talk. What about Hip-Hop?

 

Is this horse dead yet? This is a JOKE!!!!

 

Dave[/quote DEAD!!

[exactopposite]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

exactopposite,

i didn't hear much guitar based music in growing up like most of the other people here did, so the lack of guitars isn't a concern to me.

I mentioned the lack of guitar as a joke! Beethoven and Bach seemed to do okay without a guitar. It was a joke!!!

 

Also, how come all the talk is about rap? I asked about Hip-Hop, Rap and the combination Rap Hip-Hop. Only one of the two genres is getting any talk. What about Hip-Hop?

 

Is this horse dead yet? This is a JOKE!!!!

 

Dave

well rap and hip hop are two different things but they are related. rap is a genre of music and hip hop is a culture. you were asking about rap which is the predominant musical element in hip hop culture. hip hop in and of itself is not a form of music, although music can be influenced by hip hop culture. for example reggae is a form of music whereas rastafari is a religion and/or culture. if you want to discuss hip hop culture we can get into that but i was keeping it on the musical level.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by exactopposite:

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

exactopposite,

i didn't hear much guitar based music in growing up like most of the other people here did, so the lack of guitars isn't a concern to me.

I mentioned the lack of guitar as a joke! Beethoven and Bach seemed to do okay without a guitar. It was a joke!!!

 

Also, how come all the talk is about rap? I asked about Hip-Hop, Rap and the combination Rap Hip-Hop. Only one of the two genres is getting any talk. What about Hip-Hop?

 

Is this horse dead yet? This is a JOKE!!!!

 

Dave

well rap and hip hop are two different things but they are related. rap is a genre of music and hip hop is a culture. you were asking about rap which is the predominant musical element in hip hop culture. hip hop in and of itself is not a form of music, although music can be influenced by hip hop culture. for example reggae is a form of music whereas rastafari is a religion and/or culture. if you want to discuss hip hop culture we can get into that but i was keeping it on the musical level.

NO PLEASE STOP WE HAVE HEARD ENOUGH!