How do YOU define theory?

[Teahead]

Hello, I'm playing with the idea of getting some books, or such educational media, with which to expand my musical brain. My problem is that theory scares me, akin to the feeling I would imagine developing if I were to stare into a bottomless pit!

The original band I play in is pretty much straight Rock and Roll, and I have a strong blues grounding which enables me to contribute what I consider to be a satisfying offering. I am under no external pressure to learn, but sort of feel like I owe it to myself, and our music, to gain as complete an understanding as I can about what we're making.

I am not aware of how much I actually know, I can transpose chords and key quite comfortably, but feel that my understanding of scales is my weakest point. I have no problem finding something to play, and can usually understand why it works within the music, but lately I find myself longing to trust something other than my ears when it comes to creating sound.

Would anyone recommend something which would allow me to evaluate what I know, and perhaps point me in the new direction I am craving?

Should I invest in a course of instruction? Maybe private lessons, a group class?

I'd just like to hear some experiences on this before I make my mind up, thanks for listening, T.

[henryrobinett]

Hey Tea. I think theory is the mind or philosphy behind how music is played. Everybody knows some theory, if it's merely as simple as why you choose the notes to play you do. But this isn't what is called traditional theory. And there are various kinds of that. You won't find most legitimate "classical" theory too useful. But jazz whether you want to play that or not, is the kind you probably need, at least a good sprinklings worth.

 

I'd suggest a good teacher. Good teachers are hard to find though. Often the best players make the worst teachers. For you purposes I would imagine you need to understand the basics like scales and what chords go with what scales and why. Rhythm fundamentals. Reading may or may not be required, although it will help in trying to decipher the language of theory; just a little.

 

Basics: The Major scale - composed of whole steps and half steps. Seven notes in all. Whole step, whole step, half step, Whole step, whole step, whole step. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. Half steps between 3 and 4 and 7 and 8 (1). Now the significance of this scale cannot be over estimated. All chords are derived from scales, not the other way around. The primary scales we use come from the Major scale. Once you know the basic chord types, how they're constructed, why, what scales they come from and which ones they're related to, you will then know how to create (solo for example, write for another)on any chord imaginable which gets pretty fun creatively.

[Teahead]

Henry, I was hoping you would see the relevance in my post to our little discussion we had last week. I appreciate your response, and should probably explain that I do have an understanding of major and minor scales, and kind of grasp how the respective chords are constructed.

What I think I may be missing is the influence mathematics seems to have. Or the ability to articulate my knowledge in any way other than playing. What I mean by this is, where numbers come into play, sevenths and ninths etc, I lose my grasp of how the note selection is altered.

 

I know this is probably really hard for you to prescribe a cure when I'm being so vague about where it hurts! I'm thinking that a good book or tutorial cd/video might help me to figure out where I am, and if I would like to expand on that. Your jazz suggestion appeals to me, as most of my home doodles seem to revolve around self discovered chords that lean in that direction. Could you suggest any relevant candidates?

Again, thanks for your time Henry, with your help I'll beat this ignorance!

Best Wishes, Tea.

[henryrobinett]

Well if you have a basic understanding of major minor scales you're part way there. 9ths, 11ths, 13ths and various other extensions are all part of the same thing.

 

I'd rather see you get a good teacher as on ones own you can easily find excuses to not see through to the end of a book or fall prey to misunderstandings that because of an ill written book or other holes in your understand that the writer assumes you know already, don't get fully explained and leave you confused and feeling that theory sucks. And I'm embarrassed to say, but I don't know of any books. I know they're out there, I just don't know what they are.

 

All the best! If I can be of any service don't hestitate to let me know.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Don't let "Theory" intimidate you, Tea'. You and I are probably close to the same level of knoledge and intuitive grasp of the harmony/scalar "matrix"; a little reading just gave me enough polish and buzzwords to appear edge-a-cated.

 

I can assure you that learning more about it will be an empowering change, not a cosmic monkeywrench that will mess with your musicality. What little I know has helped me to understand or work out some of my own music, when I didn't readily "hear" the answer in my mind's ear.

 

Now, on the one hand, I believe that years of being somewhat in the dark on theorey and (especially) technique have had a lot to do with what is "different" in my playing and music, and I don't regret it. However, I now feel strongly that I want to take some lessons and learn (and practice and apply) reading and writing and theory in general. I would regret it someday if I don't do that relatively soon.

 

Again, don't let it scare you, it's all really just tools and reference points. It will probably help suggest and inspire new ideas, rather than forcing you to conform to some musical bit and bridle. That's how I'm looking at it, anyways.

 

What fascinates me is the arbitrary nature of the whole thing- not in the details and "rules" within being in any way arbitrary, but the whole construct being peiced together over so long a time, and other music theory systems utilizing entirely different divisions of the octave. You know, how Western music divides the octave into twelve semi-tones, and others, notably Eastern (covering a LOT of ground there, more like simply "all-NON-Western") music topologies that may use fewer, and often many more, semi-tones to build scales and harmony from. Some allowance is made for "microtones", for Viol-family, slide-trombone, Dobro/pedal-steel, and B.B. King. But, once you can deal with Western theory, the door begs to be opened to harmony a la Mo' 'n' Les' Halfsteps.

 

The preceding blathering amounts to... go for it, Teahead... !

 

Oh, yeah- I wanted to post the observation that it's one thing to learn some theory by rote, and even understand it, and quite another to be able to apply it in actual playing and composition, especially on the guitar. Further evidence that points towards hooking up with a good teacher, one-on-one, in real life!

[pauldil]

Regarding theory, one of the things I struggled with when I was younger was that I used to try to “think” as I played. I tried to remember all the theory I had ever learned as I was actually playing over changes. Needless to say, it was overwhelming, I couldn't keep up and I sounded really bad when improvising over changes. My playing sounded forced and unnatural, and worse, I wasn't listening because I was too busy thinking. Eventually, I had one of the “duh!” moments when I realized that I didn't need to do this. For me, the trick is to apply "theory" as soon as I learn it, and practice it again and again, over various situations. As one of many examples, I know I can play a Db major idea over a G7 chord that's resolving to a C Major. I could think that it works because the Db major has Db, which is the b5 of G, F, which is the b7 of G, and Ab, which is the b9. Or I could think that it works because I'm approaching the C major from a half-step above. Instead, I just practiced this device over and over in various songs that contain V7-IM progressions, in various durations (1,2,4 measures, etc) until the sound was drilled into my ears. Instead of memorizing “rules”, I memorized the sounds and they just became part of my playing. Now I hear it and I can just play it. Don't get me wrong – I still suck, but at least it sounds more natural.

 

Paul

[Darklava]

I remember when I was about twelve there was a kid down the street playing his teisco a little plastic cry baby and a little cheap amp.This kid was a couple years older.He was ripping this guitar up.He was great! I can bet this kid did not know the word theory.I say fuck theory,throw it out the window,and do your thing.Remember theory not fact. Don't be a clone,do what you know don't be slow.

[dougsthang]

I don't know about "f*ck" theory but I can tell you from personal experience it's worth knowing. It's well worth getting your head around the concepts and then you can choose to apply it or not.

 

I'm glad I learned theory in college and applied it enough to score a few piece's of music for a small orchestra.

 

The thing I didn't really dig about theory, I should say "classical" theory is you'd study your rules "no parallel fifths......" then you'd study a Bach piece and he would break the rules everywhere and the teacher would say "oh that's Bach"...????? What's the point, if it sounds good go for it. Their is knowledge that you need to understand as far as ranges and applications of instruments within a score.

 

I learned to play guitar by dropping a needle on my records over and over and picking it up by ear. I played quite well and was in working bands from 8th grade on.. It wasn't until I went to college and majored in Music that my playing grew ten fold.

 

The best thing you could do is take a theory class at a local college and then draw your own conclusions from that.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by dougsthang':

I don't know about "f*ck" theory but I can tell you from personal experience it's worth knowing. It's well worth getting your head around the concepts and then you can choose to apply it or not.

 

I'm glad I learned theory in college and applied it enough to score a few piece's of music for a small orchestra.

 

The thing I didn't really dig about theory, I should say "classical" theory is you'd study your rules "no parallel fifths......" then you'd study a Bach piece and he would break the rules everywhere and the teacher would say "oh that's Bach"...????? What's the point, if it sounds good go for it. Their is knowledge that you need to understand as far as ranges and applications of instruments within a score.

 

I learned to play guitar by dropping a needle on my records over and over and picking it up by ear. I played quite well and was in working bands from 8th grade on.. It wasn't until I went to college and majored in Music that my playing grew ten fold.

 

The best thing you could do is take a theory class at a local college and then draw your own conclusions from that.

Sorry Mr Salty! I didn't mean too ruffle your ridges.A little conceded are we?

[Caevan O’Shite]

Yep, conceded. That's it.

 

Actually, I thought that dougsthang' was friendly and thoughtful in his last post there... he's just speaking from his experience, having been on both sides of the fence.

 

If someone says to you that they've played by ear for years, and then tried learning a little and finding great results, and further tells you to "draw your own conclusions" for yourself, why in the Hell would you consider them to have been "ruffled" and conceited?

 

If a dude up the street from you learned to play by ear and was tearin' it up, doubtless from listening to CDs, etc., and someone else has played professionally for years and studied music theory and learned how the peices work and fit together- and how to "break the rules" and create their own original music, instead of just blatting out other people's tried'n'true licks, which one is the clone then?

 

How can you "do what you know", when you don't know Jack $h!t?

 

Don't be slow.

[pauldil]

Originally posted by dougsthang':

...you'd study your rules "no parallel fifths......" then you'd study a Bach piece and he would break the rules everywhere and the teacher would say "oh that's Bach"...????? What's the point, if it sounds good go for it.

Yes, exactly, your ears are the final judge. However, knowing theory will allow you to try things you may not have thought of trying otherwise. It will let you recognize devices used by your favorite players so that you can learn their approach faster. You can't learn music in a vaccum, so even if you learn just by copying off recordings, you're still developing theory. Theory is just a way of mentally organizing the way you understand music.

 

Paul

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by pauldil:

Regarding theory, one of the things I struggled with when I was younger was that I used to try to “think” as I played.

Yes! Thinking has no place in "playing". This is the most misunderstood thing about applying theory I think. Creative playing involves virtually no thought, not if thought requires effort in any way.

 

Paul, you're right of course. All THINKING should be done ahead of time and repeatedly until no more thinking is required to pull off the technique in question. Guitar is great because it's such a visual instrument. Those theories and thoughts and techniques when thought of in the practice room should then be committed to memory and visualized on the guitar neck.

 

Let's say you're given a chord sequence to play on a chart. Someone says improvise over this. It's 16 bars of Eminor. No problem. Suddenly there's a middle section that goes (I'm just making this up now) Eb7+11, A7b5, Abmin7, Cmin9. Now I don't think about this any more, but I did at one time. I can visualize myself through the terrain. If I have to stop and explain it, now it becomes THINKING. It seems so complex, but it's not at all. I see the notes on the neck. E7+11 I see the arpeggiated notes and it's extensions. I KNOW that the parent scale I'll play will be an F Melodic Minor or you could call it Eb Mixolydian #4. Same thing. I can also see other possibilities, including blues scales. But because I can see and HEAR these possibilities I'm less limited than I used to be before I knew of these possibilities.

 

But none of this involves thinking in real time. It involves looking, intuition and creativity with by itself I think necessarily involves NO THINKING.

[dougsthang]

Mr. Salty here...I had to laugh at that one.

 

I think you missed the message Mr. Bitter, My point was don't close your mind to other issues. I learned to play by ear but not until I learned to read music and undertstand theory did my playing really excel. Nothing conceeded about that, it's fact.

 

I think Teaheads original question was "he wanted to expand his musical brain". Learning to read music is not for everybody and you don't need to do it to be a decent player. It will open a ton of doors for you as a player if you take the time to understand it.

 

The one thing I took away from Music School is open your ears and mind, listen to all types of music and get something from it. It will make you a more rounded better musician.

 

Don't take this as preaching it's just I've been on both sides of the fence. There's no doubt you can learn to play the guitar by friends showing you chords and picking stuff up of off CD's but it's a fact you'll only get so far. If you want to go further, it's your choice. If you want to play three chord rock, cool..turn it up and rip..whatever rocks your world. It's funny because with all the theory and practice and real world gigging I've come full circle and love the simpliciy of G-C-D...also the beauty of space, not playing at all...

[NMcGuitar]

I've said it before: Knowing theory and being able to read music are tools . How you use them is up to you.

I can't see any way that have more tools at your disposal can be a bad thing. Just because you don't use all your tools all the time doesn't mean there isn't a time & place for them (I may not use a crescent wrench every day, but when I need one I'm glad that I'm not stuck with nothing but a hammer).

[revolead]

Knowing theory will always help. I started with quite a bnit of knowledge coming off trumpet and a classical background, but I can't begin to tell you how much it shocked me when I moved over to guitar. I never realized how scales fit so well into chords and how modes actually meant something. I'm thankful I learned all of this.

Only about 2 years ago I remember just starting guitar. I wanted to play. Forget theory that was for people who wanted more than just pleasant sounds. But all of a sudden a wall hit me about 5 months into playing. You can download all the Hendrix tablature and listen to all the metal and jazz you want, but without the theory you'll be lost. An although we can name guys who don't read music or understand theory all day who get along perefctly, those people will never be musicians.

This is where the fence splits. The theory people will always be better musicians, but not necessarily better players. The non-theory people may or may not be better players, but they will never be as good of musicians. Its that simple.

[Teahead]

Nice to see emotions are still running high on this one...

I think the general, (rational) opinion seems to be that knowledge can never really be a bad thing. So you may have a perfect touch when it comes to playing, but without knowing how to nurture that gift, and apply it to the best of your ability, you're wasting it.

The great exceptions that stand to prove this rule to me are legendary players who spent their whole lives devoted to playing guitar.

I don't think it could be put any better than it has been, I need to make that distinction between the natural playing that comes in rehearsal, and applying new theory. But without thinking about it.

That's the part that really scares me. I am proud of so much of what our band has achieved, but I also know that much of it was done without thought. So the natural concern was, will this quest to learn chase my beautiful muse from my side? I think I have to be confident enough in the fact that I am what I play, and that I can nurture my ability without somehow spoiling it by having to start thinking again!

Thanks for the points of view, I am still all ears, Tea

[strat0124]

I never understood the term Music Theory. Because, haven't those principles been proved???? Its not like other theoretical subjects in that light.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by Teahead:

So the natural concern was, will this quest to learn chase my beautiful muse from my side? I think I have to be confident enough in the fact that I am what I play, and that I can nurture my ability without somehow spoiling it by having to start thinking again!

Thanks for the points of view, I am still all ears, Tea

Well that's it! Of course it won't chase the muse away. But also don't let theory cause you to second guess yourself. In most ways it's merely a way to explain what you do naturally already.

 

There is often an awkward juggling period when you try to think as oppose too just play. You might begin questioning your choices and what you play might seem very strange. This will pass if you continue and blow past it.

 

geenard skeenard:

I never understood the term Music Theory. Because, haven't those principles been proved???? Its not like other theoretical subjects in that light.

LOL! Just to be clear, although you were being tongue in cheek, I'm sure. Theory in this sense is defined as "A set of statements or principles used to explain a group of facts or phenomena".

 

So it merely explains the functioning principles we all accept as music: notes, harmony, rhythm, structure, etc..

[Darklava]

Originally posted by dougsthang':

Mr. Salty here...I had to laugh at that one.

 

I think you missed the message Mr. Bitter, My point was don't close your mind to other issues. I learned to play by ear but not until I learned to read music and undertstand theory did my playing really excel. Nothing conceeded about that, it's fact.

 

I think Teaheads original question was "he wanted to expand his musical brain". Learning to read music is not for everybody and you don't need to do it to be a decent player. It will open a ton of doors for you as a player if you take the time to understand it.

 

The one thing I took away from Music School is open your ears and mind, listen to all types of music and get something from it. It will make you a more rounded better musician.

 

Don't take this as preaching it's just I've been on both sides of the fence. There's no doubt you can learn to play the guitar by friends showing you chords and picking stuff up of off CD's but it's a fact you'll only get so far. If you want to go further, it's your choice. If you want to play three chord rock, cool..turn it up and rip..whatever rocks your world. It's funny because with all the theory and practice and real world gigging I've come full circle and love the simpliciy of G-C-D...also the beauty of space, not playing at all...

Mr bitter here, guess I owe you an apology.Thank's for tuning me in.Your last word's were beautful.