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Stereotypes


revolead

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A sax player I know tried to claim guitarists don't know anything about complex chords and scales, or at least rock guitarists. I know a lot of you on here like and play jazz, but it really irritates me when people automatically assume rock guitarists have no talent and never no how to read music. Obviously they never listened to anyone. Even Hendrix and SRV, who both admit to not being able to read music know some theory and play complex chords. Not to mention even metal guitarists do as well. Ever looked at anything by Petrucci? Looks as complex as any jazz chromatics I've ever seen. I think people who have been lead to believe rock is all about sex, drugs, and lack of knowlegde need to get a reality check and stop watching MTV or anything else that plays a bunch of talentless wannabees.

Here's to the real rock and the real musicians. :evil:

Shut up and play.
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I agree with you. There are so many rock players who do have ample theory, but more importantly, even some of those who don't have great ears, fingers hard-wired to their souls, and rise above the genre labels and stand simply as great musicians. Miles Davis recognized that about Hendrix, as has John McLaughlin, Larry Coryell, and other great Jazz players.

 

Also, I know players who know quite a bit about complex chords and scales but do not exactly create anything musical with them. I hate to hear someone and immediately think, "wow, that person sure does practice a lot." I want instead to immediately feel something from what they played...and then, like any guitarist worth his/her picks, say, "Oh, I could do that," and then secretly wonder, "How DID he do that?"

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Unfortunately, and I hate to say it, but it tends to be true. It was precisely this attitude from other musicians that made me work so hard.

 

Most guitarists don't know how to read, or spell chords or how to play on complex chords or chord changes, how to change keys or even play in various styles not typical for guitar. Horn players who arrange music are stymied by guitar players. Let's say a chart is given with a progression Eb7+9 - A7+11 - AbMaj7+11 - B/G - cmin9. Most guitar players would have no idea how to handle that sightreading and forget about improvising over it. Most tenor sax jazz players would eat it up.

 

Let's say you're playing a tune and the singer says can we try this in Eb instead of G? Most musicians would have little problem transposing on the spot. Not so most guitar players.

 

Now obviously there are rock musicians who are schooled and know how to read and know their fundamentals, but believe me, they're far and few between. But guitarists have given musicianship a bad name. Guitarists have the reputation of being the blonds in the band. All glam and no substance. Arrogant, loud airheads.

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Most guitarists don't know how to read, or spell chords or how to play on complex chords or chord changes, how to change keys or even play in various styles not typical for guitar. Horn players who arrange music are stymied by guitar players. Let's say a chart is given with a progression Eb7+9 - A7+11 - AbMaj7+11 - B/G - cmin9. Most guitar players would have no idea how to handle that sightreading and forget about improvising over it. Most tenor sax jazz players would eat it up.

 

Let's say you're playing a tune and the singer says can we try this in Eb instead of G? Most musicians would have little problem transposing on the spot. Not so most guitar players.

To be fair to guitarists, it does have a little bit to do with the type of instrument. Very few instruments are as easy to pick up and get a desirable sound out of as a guitar is; most take years of formal training. (Such as violin, tenor sax, oboe, etc.) The fact that society has elevated guitar playing to "extremely cool" status, making almost everyone want to play guitar. If everyone's doing it, you're bound to get a few losers in the bunch.

 

Consider your average guitarist and your average violinist. What do you think the age of those average players would have been when they started to play their instruments? I'd be willing to be that the violinist was much, much younger, and that the violinist had much, much more formal instruction.

 

Personally, it seems to me that guitarists (note I said guitarists, not guitar players) are the symptom rather than the disease.

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I think you also need to consider that the instrument fosters this to some extent. To many guitarists, chords are shapes - they move up and down the neck accordingly. An E-flatmaj7 is "the same" as an Fmaj7, just two frets lower; you don't have to think about the notes that comprise the chord.

I think it's also reinforced by the fact that (for example) our music will be notated "Fmaj7", and not as specific notes written on a musical staff.

 

All that said, it drives me kind of nuts too. If I hear the "joke" about "How do you make a guitarist shut up?" ("Put sheet music in front of him") one more time from some arrogant trumpet player I'll lose my mind. :evil:

May all your thoughts be random!

- Neil

www.McFaddenArts.com

www.MikesGarageRocks.com

 

 

 

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I believe that written music is nothing more than a throw back to the days when recording your composition was impossible.

Classical composers had no other way of transporting the labours of their love to audiences across distances, they had no way even of remembering the piece unless it was written down, so they 'recorded' in that way.

Nowadays we have the luxury of digital recording which enables all of us to document our creations without having to deal with this kind of snobbery.

Thinking less of a person because they do not read or write your language as fluently as you do does not have a place in music, and especially not in Rock and Roll.

Let these prejudices eat the ones who harbour them, a closed mind never made great, meaningful music for anyone.

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Originally posted by Teahead:

I believe that written music is nothing more than a throw back to the days when recording your composition was impossible.

How are you going to get an orchestra to play your music EFFICIENTLY without writing it down? How are you going to get 10 people to accuratley play without a lot of wasted time, forcing them to memorize your parts, without writing it down?

 

I don't know, I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm not overly fond of rehearsals. It's a bad habit of mine. I like them done efficiently and quickly and I lose patience real quick with guys who don't get it fast. I mean most times they'll never know how thin my patience has run. I play with guys, 99% who can read, better than me. I bring a chart, they bring a chart. It can be incredibly complex or numbingly stupid. Doesn't matter. In sheer moments we're playing music, or recording, or making money having fun gigging.

 

So for me you saying that "written music is nothing more than a throw back to the days when recording your composition was impossible" is just laughable. Does everyone have to read? Certainly not. Most guitar players don't. But don't you make the mistake you're accusing others of. Namely letting "these prejudices eat the ones who harbour them, a closed mind never made great, meaningful music for anyone."

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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I have dreadlocks, so I must smoke weed.

That guy has no hair, so he must be a racist.

That guy is black, so he must listen to hip-hop and r&b.

That guy is Asian, so he must be a lousy driver.

That guy plays bass in a rock band, so he must be a moron with a lousy job and a primer-coated vehicle.

 

Stereotypes of any kind are usually based on some kernel of truth, but are infrequently 100% accurate in every case.

\m/

Erik

"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

--Sun Tzu

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Originally posted by NMcGuitar:

I think you also need to consider that the instrument fosters this to some extent. To many guitarists, chords are shapes - they move up and down the neck accordingly. An E-flatmaj7 is "the same" as an Fmaj7, just two frets lower; you don't have to think about the notes that comprise the chord.

More than anything I think that hits the nail on the head.

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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Henry, my friend, I did not intend to insult anyone with my flippant remarks, nor do I insist that my theory holds true for everyone out there reading this thread.

What I do stand by however, is my contempt for the snobbery that exists amongst musicians when it comes to matters of written music. I may have overstated my point somewhat, and even undermined my own argument through my eagerness, but it was intended only to illustrate that times have changed.

The importance of reading music is almost always greatly overstated by those who can, and therefore it stands to reason that it will be understated by those who cannot.

 

For me personally, I have to admit that it is no more important to me than Latin. In that I will forever be in debt for the achievements it has accomplished in our world. I do not underestimate how much our modern language is derived from it, or how much we use it everyday,

but, do I need to know how to read and write this language to be able to effectively communicate with others through the sound that it notates?

As I said, I'm not one of those aforementioned closed minds, and therefore I am keen to be convinced otherwise, but writing music seems like whistling Shakespearean. Just my free thinking opinion, not intended as a personal attack on any level, I appreciate the debate, best wishes,

Tea, :thu:

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Originally posted by CMDN:

I have dreadlocks, so I must smoke weed.

That guy has no hair, so he must be a racist.

That guy is black, so he must listen to hip-hop and r&b.

That guy is Asian, so he must be a lousy driver.

That guy plays bass in a rock band, so he must be a moron with a lousy job and a primer-coated vehicle.

 

Stereotypes of any kind are usually based on some kernel of truth, but are infrequently 100% accurate in every case.

In Ghent, wearing dreadlocks might mean you're a civil liberties lawyer, or if you're a black dude that you're in one of premier punk bands in the area...ect ect ect.....

I remember being stopped by the cops after a gig, when I had longer hair. I'm sure he thought he had a bust, cause the first words out of his mouth were how much have I had to drink. I told him..."oh eleven or twelve................ICED TEAS!" Somehow he didn't appreciate my slant on humor! :)

Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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Tea, I have a feeling I'm going to piss a lot of people off here. Hold on. :)

 

Originally posted by Teahead:

Henry, my friend, I did not intend to insult anyone with my flippant remarks, nor do I insist that my theory holds true for everyone out there reading this thread.

Totally understood. All in the spirit of debate.

 

What I do stand by however, is my contempt for the snobbery that exists amongst musicians when it comes to matters of written music. I may have overstated my point somewhat, and even undermined my own argument through my eagerness, but it was intended only to illustrate that times have changed.
Well that's just what I was trying to say. Times have changed FOR YOU, but FOR ME they have remained the same. All the musicians I play with, virtually all I associate with, read music. Not because I'm a snob, but rather because the music I play would be all but impossible otherwise. Further more, and again I hate to say it, but I think music has taken a mean left turn and a steep descent into virtual oblivion. Now that's just my point of view. I think much music today has lost it's foothold. One of the reasons is lack of musicians ability too read, or to do much anything of complexity. Things have become simpler to equal out the lower common denominator of slacker ability musicians. :)

 

Musicians can still PLAY phenomenally well. But if a musicians wanted to write something very complex, developed, large or with a form somewhat more involved than AABA, communicating it through written form is the easiest and most obvious method. PLUS LEARNING HOW TO DO IT will only be found easily by studying how composers/arrangers/orchestrators have done it in the past. Learning by ear ALONE takes too long and frankly you just won't get it. There are great resources in libraries, schools, music stores that explain it all, but you have to be able to read to get it.

 

To me it's more than a little like an illiterate justifying why he doesn't need to read. It's just ridiculous. As I said, one doesn't HAVE to be able to read music to play music, or even to play music well. But to on the other hand to PUT DOWN THOSE WHO DO just doesn't make any sense. Those who do read just shake their head knowing that the critic will never get it, because he can't see the advantage because he has no clue. He's merely justifying is inability. You'll never find a person who reads music well and uses reading telling you how useless it is. I don't think you will anyway. If he plays in a r&R band where nobody else reads, sure maybe.

 

I don't know, I just think music has gone to hell in a handbasket (where the hell did that saying come from?). But you see we're talking two different things. If you play 3-4 chords and give somebody a "tape" and have no problem sitting down with the bass player, another guitar player, drummer and just dictate it to them, OK well fine. Boy I have no patience for that. I like guys who I just give a chart to. I've worked out MOST of the problems ahead of time. Endings, intros, verse, bridge, chorus. Open always for input. But there's NOTHING BETTER than to spend a little time writing it down as detailed as you can, giving it to some musicians and it sounds great right then. It's music. No wasted time. Then you craft it as a group from there.

 

It's only becoming like reading LATIN because it is becoming lost. And it's becoming lost NOT because it's no longer useful, but because musicians are becoming stupider. Please don't take offense.

:D

But useful technology falls into disuse simply because of disuse, not always because it's no longer useful.

 

When I was a kid learning to play I hated the feeling of getting zero respect from other musicians simply because they knew I played guitar. It's a hateful form of stereotyping. But they have a point in that most are illiterate and know little about music, its structure, form, make up and theory, let alone reading. So to a trained pianist, saxophone player, etc there's already little room for communicating with this fellow musician who seems to not understand even the most basic elements of music beyond the blues, power chords or those certain shapes on the fretboard.

 

Whew boy have I just pissed off everbody here, or what? :D

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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I'm not pissed!

Henry you made some good points in a very eloquent manner. I've no wish to sink deeper into this quicksand like debate, but I would love to know if you can define the point where you believe music jumped in the handcart and shouted "Straight to Hell please driver, and don't spare the horses!" :D

I'm just curious, it's not for me to construct a timeline and begin picking exceptions to your comments, as you have so rightly said, we are fighting different arguments here! It's purely curiosity.

Again Henry, thanks so much for taking my comments in the spirit they were intended, and thanks for taking the time to respond to them.

Best of luck, Tea.

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I understand what you're saying Henry. It really is hard to find guitar players that read music. I find you get two types.

1. Those who won't read music because they're lazy.

2. Those who won't read music because they're too good.

And after that they break down into another category.

1. Those who admit it.

2. Those who won't or try to avoid it.

I've worked with actual music reading musicians in bands, and they tend to be easier to communicate with, but they also tend to be snobby too. Always have to have everything prefect and their way. Even I can be guilty of that sometimes.

And to those of you who don't read music or you won't or whatever, what's your excuse?

I hate the stereotypes of rockers and any guitarist, but if we don't try to make an effort here no ones going to change the truth about most guitar players.

In regards to where that truth comes from I think its partiallay a symptom, but also partially a hypchondriatic condition.

"Well Hendrix never read sheet music, why should I."

Its this attitude that seperates progressive musicians from the regular cover song at the coffeehouse guys. And the progressive musician is always the one who gets to be in the December GP.

Shut up and play.
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I think we need to put some things in historical perspective.

 

Since the prehistoric times, "folk" music styles have existed that were easy to play and did not require music theory or the ability to read music(or even read at all - widespread literacy is a 20th century phenomenon). These forms of music were enjoyed at home and in other informal environments. For most people, this was the only music they heard until the advent of recorded music.

 

From the late 1800s (when the record industry was born) until the 1950s, most "pop" music was jazz-based music performed by orchestras and ensembles. This music was difficult to play and musicians needed to read since it's all but impossible for an orchestra to play together if they're not reading charts.

 

In the 1950s, rock n' roll, soul, and country music became more popular (and have remained so ever since). They do not require the ability to read music or more than a basic understanding of theory. Yes, they are less-complex than jazz or classical. Yes they are more primitive.

 

Essentially, "folk" music has superceded other forms of music in popularity.

 

I don't think that musical ignorance ever helped anyone. You can never be too good at your instrument and anyone who says that they don't practice because it will "hurt the music" is full of shit.

 

However, LOTS of great music has been produced by people who couldn't read and didn't know much theory. So I disagree that music is going to hell in a handbasket.

 

Jazz and classical musicians will always need to read and understand theory (jazz cannot be played without this knowledge). However, years of training is not required to get out there and just make some noise and no one should be dissuaded from doing so.

 

Things have become simpler to equal out the lower common denominator of slacker ability musicians.
Is it the slacker ability of the musicians or the slacker taste of the record-buying public who have opted to listen to less-complex music?
"You never can vouch for your own consciousness." - Norman Mailer
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Yeah...but the day Yngwie gets his picture on the cover of TapeOp, No Depression, or Blues Revue is the day I'm selling all my guitars!!!!!!!!! Being progressive isn't all about Prog-Rock....it is way beyond that. I think Gillian Welch is progresssive, as is Sam Phillips, as is Keb Mo, as well as the Derailers. Progressive Rock in the thinest description of the term, to me is pretty tedious to listen to, technically its fucking incredible, but sounds like my description of a sax player: "I never knew a sax player who WOULDN'T take a solo". I'll betcha the ratio of women to men is a helluva lot greater at Son Volt show than at a Steve Vai show. Just a wild ass guess. :)
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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And to those of you who don't read music or you won't or whatever, what's your excuse?
Because when I was young I focused on learn how to technically play well instead of read well. That was my priority. Always figured I'd make time to learn how to read well later on (I can currently read a little but not well). I do know my theory though.
"You never can vouch for your own consciousness." - Norman Mailer
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Henry, you are correct even though you discriminate against pointy headstocks. I think the main issue is genre. I wouldn't dream of trying to play in a Jazz ensemble or a classical group if I couldn't sight read efficently and accurately. People that do are idiots and cause the stereotyping. It's like a guitarist showing up to a metal bands tryout that does not know how to palm mute 64th notes. It's all about showing up with the skills required to do the job you are there to do.

Reach out and grab a clue.

 

Something Vicious

My solo crap

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I understand why I get stereotyped sometimes...

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nmcfadden/C-N-Jhair1mini.JPG

 

but it does bug me when I am playing in a pit orchestra and I get "the attitude".

I usually just make a point of playing better (including reading) than those with their noses in the air.

 

To comment on the whole reading vs not reading, I'll simply say this: The more you know, and the more tools you have in your arsenal the better equipped you are to serve the music you are trying to play.

May all your thoughts be random!

- Neil

www.McFaddenArts.com

www.MikesGarageRocks.com

 

 

 

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Neil... Dude...

Did anyone ever tell you that you resemble Floyd from Electric Mayhem, the pit band from The Muppet Show?

\m/

Erik

"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

--Sun Tzu

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Originally posted by revolead:

And to those of you who don't read music or you won't or whatever, what's your excuse?.

Do we really need an excuse to choose not to follow an example? Especially an example that some of us have already questioned. How Draconian of you to ask.

I think your churlish question illustrates the snobbish attitude which taints those who do read. One rotten apple and all that.

"What's your excuse?" for not being like me? Listen to yourself revolead, listen to yourself.

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Originally posted by CMDN:

Neil... Dude...

Did anyone ever tell you that you resemble Floyd from Electric Mayhem, the pit band from The Muppet Show?

I played for a show a number of years ago where I was actually on stage for part of the time. The stage manager immediately nicknamed me "Muppet" for precisely that reason. I don't think she ever refered to me by any other name.

:cool:

 

(BTW, I always loved The Electric Mayhem!!)

May all your thoughts be random!

- Neil

www.McFaddenArts.com

www.MikesGarageRocks.com

 

 

 

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Originally posted by Teahead:

Originally posted by revolead:

And to those of you who don't read music or you won't or whatever, what's your excuse?.

Do we really need an excuse to choose not to follow an example? Especially an example that some of us have already questioned. How Draconian of you to ask.

I think your churlish question illustrates the snobbish attitude which taints those who do read. One rotten apple and all that.

"What's your excuse?" for not being like me? Listen to yourself revolead, listen to yourself.

Tea, don't worry. I already admitted people who read can be snobbish with their playing. I know plenty of people who can't read music but can play guitar like none other.

I started playing guitar being able to read, coming out of trumpet, and trust me it has helped. I still can't sight-read guitar music very well. I struggle with it. But I'm trying. That's my point.

Shut up and play.
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rev -

It just occured to me while reading your last post (mentioning your trumpet background) that I might have caused offense earlier with my previous statment:

All that said, it drives me kind of nuts too. If I hear the "joke" about "How do you make a guitarist shut up?" ("Put sheet music in front of him") one more time from some arrogant trumpet player I'll lose my mind
.

 

Believe me, none was intended (to you or virtually all other trumpet players). I picked "trumpet" because the most recent experience I've had of this was with this total jerk who kept going on with these kind of jokes --until we actually started playing and he really looked like a fool. It just so happened that he was a trumpet player.

 

Sorry.

:)

May all your thoughts be random!

- Neil

www.McFaddenArts.com

www.MikesGarageRocks.com

 

 

 

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Originally posted by CMDN:

I have dreadlocks, so I must smoke weed.

That guy has no hair, so he must be a racist.

That guy is black, so he must listen to hip-hop and r&b.

That guy is Asian, so he must be a lousy driver.

That guy plays bass in a rock band, so he must be a moron with a lousy job and a primer-coated vehicle.

 

Stereotypes of any kind are usually based on some kernel of truth, but are infrequently 100% accurate in every case.

That guy has dreadlocks and plays guitar in a loud band. He must like kicking bus doors.
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Originally posted by Teahead:

I'm not pissed!

Whew! Good Tea. Got past the main one. Now if I can just keep the floodgates from opening up on me . . .

 

 

I would love to know if you can define the point where you believe music jumped in the handcart and shouted "Straight to Hell please driver, and don't spare the horses!" :D
Interesting question and another opportunity to dig my grave. :D

 

Where did it begin in my estimation? Hold on. Buddy Holly. Then the Beatles. Then Peter Frampton, Sex Pistols, The Ramones, Run DMC, NWA, Nirvana.

 

The true quest to do your own music, write your own music, play your own music WHICH WAS A WONDERFUL THING also carried the component of "nothing else matters" with it. Whereas before songwriters, studio musicians, trained arrangers were used and valued, kind of as musical experts; Hell The Beatles had George Martin even, now there is no sense of quality control besides a producer who very often doesn't know any more about music. But the record companies finally realized and had to admit how painfully out of touch they were with their buying public. They'd turn a perfectly good r&R artist into Tommy Rowe bubblegum (OK this last comment shows how really out of touch I am).

 

But when Frampton went platinum forget it. All bets were off. Music was ruined from then on. It was ALL about the money. Ramones/Sex Pistols said "Fuck it!" re learning to play or the significance of knowing music at all. And they proved their point to a certain extent. They made it big, but still beyond playing phenomenal angst really convincingly well, sucked big time IMNSHO.

 

Along with this great surge of bands doing it themselves regardless of ability went the great songwriters out the window. I'm ALL for self expression. But just not throwing the baby out too.

 

What happened to music? Baby Boomers gone bad. Spoiled, self rightegeous, self absorbed. Then it only got worse with Gen Xers and the nihilistic bombast, dull meandering, my life sucks, all night loud whine.

 

The attitude that it only matters if it's me. I don't have to learn anything. Nothing that happened before me has any significance or value.

 

But I've said it before. I've listened to some music of the early part of the LAST century fully expecting it to be simple, arcane, tin pan alley drivel. This was a show where a guy researched music he found in the piano benches of old homes. Man some of that stuff was ASTOUNDING musically. I had thought music was a continual stream, a timeline where progress was made and assured. Like the concept of atheletes where it got better through the years. I realized that it seems to be this concept in reverse. Things seem to get worse. Music got stupider. Folks back then read music. As you said, this was their distribution system. There was no Victrola or 78 lps. No tape recorders. If people wanted to hear music they had to hear live musicians playing it. It meant necessarily a higher educated musician. Most every body was trained in some form of music, at least in middle class homes and many lower class homes as well. Both my parents and grand parents and great grandparents were most all able to read music. It was something that was valued and taught.

 

Now music is distributed by free downloads and most people learn by having someone show them licks and chord patterns on a guitar. It's like H.G.Wells "Time Machine" where the future representative of mankind is stupid, know nothing, do nothing, controlled by . . . well I forget. It's been a long time since I read that book.

 

I'm droning on and on. Forgive me. I've lost the point.

 

But what did this mean, these 'more trained musicians in homes than we are today'? It meant in turn that there were more well trained musicians who composed as well. Songwriters knew the craft of putting pen to paper. You had to know something about what you did, beyond the "I can play this chord and sing this song and record it therefore it's valid" type thing.

 

Now it's great we can do this. Democracy is great and all. Common man/woman has rights to express whatever he or she wishes. Let Freedom Ring and all that crap. But we're throwing out what makes things great by settling for beyond mediocre because most people no longer know what greatness is, or care. "I can write a tune!" Good for you. Now so in the fuck what? Is it great? Does it compare to greatness of the past? How does it stack up? Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just because you can write a fucking SONG.

 

There are people who've spent their whole lives studying what makes music GREAT. I mean really studying. Not that their opinion is necessarilly correct, but don't you think there should be some consideration given to an educated point of view? Do we think music was invented in 1954?

 

It'd be like Rembrant or his comtemporaries studying their whole lives to paint a portrait and some guy comes along, draws a stick figure or worse Andy Warhol drops by with his Campbell Soup cans, or someone else comes along and makes a ton of money and says "You don't need to draw and paint! All you need is Freehand and Photoshop!" Sometimes I think my kids actually think they're playing basketball when they're playing a video game of playing basketball!

 

We as a society are forgetting how to DO. Not just do music, but do ANYTHING but sit in front of a TV or computer terminal. I resemble that remark.

 

End of rant for now. I've got to go do.

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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That guy has dreadlocks and plays guitar in a loud band. He must like kicking bus doors.
See, there ya go... there's the kernel of truth.

 

I went and ruined public transportation for all the other dreadlocked rock guitarists everywhere. Now, all the bus drivers in Philly refuse to give rides to all dreadlocked musicians who try to catch the bus.

\m/

Erik

"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

--Sun Tzu

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to the original poster....

 

that sax player was being really myopic in his estimation. first of all, the neo-classical, and others in the metal genre have and do explore various scales. and regarding complex chords, they don't work well with tons of gain. the sound gets muddied-up. that's why 5 chords are so popular with metal. different techniques for different needs. that sax player should put his broad brush away before he gets paint all over himself too.

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