Pure Amp Tone pickle I'm in

[alanfc]

Hello-

 

I've been refining and tweaking for days & days now, trying to get my ideal guitar sound from straight amp tone. That is, just Marshall>SM 57>Vtb-1 preamp> soundcard. I think I've got it down the way I want it, but there's one last hitch.

 

I think I'm hearing a tiny amount of distortion that may be digital- I don't know. It wouldn't be my monitors because all other instruments sound fine. I'm afraid I MIGHT have to do something in addition to pure amp tone, I concede.

 

Here's what I did: when I changed from tracking at -6db (on 24-bit) to tracking instead at

-6db to -3db, my guitar sound was more lively and ballsy. I tested this with just upping the volume on a channel recorded at lower input level, thinking it was just a pure volume issue, and it did not give me the same result. It was louder but thinner... So in my situation, with my gear, even though I'm doing 24-bit, I want to stay with that hotter input level.

 

I cannot come off the gain any more than I have already. I need the wetness on the single picked notes, and for the chunka-chunka rythmic things I need to do.

 

So does this leave me with cutting the high end off somewhere? On the Amp if I do it, the whole sound becomes dry muffly rumbly crap.

 

How about 1)using my RNC after the VTB-1, a tiny amount during tracking? 2)Or EQ after the tracking? 3)Or compression after the tracking.

 

What I'm hearing is ever so slight, and while I can hear it clearly when soloed, in the mix is where it really counts. I can still hear it in the mix just barely. It could masquerade as legitimate rockin guitar distortion I guess- But I hear it !

 

So since I'm still a ways under -0 db I'm hoping its not digital distortion. Its almost like a slight sizzling sound.

 

any diagnosis?

Thanks

[James-Italy]

AlanFC,

Oh man, but if this isn't the classic pickle that's been dogging professionals, and us home recorders, for years- Recording Guitar! If the guitar is distorted then how can you record without the grit. You don't say if what type of guitar sound you're recording, but I'm assuming because of the Marshall there is distortion.

 

First off, you're link from "Marshall>SM 57>Vtb-1 preamp> soundcard" doesn't tell us what soundcard. If it's a generic soundblaster or soundcard that's built into your PC's motherboard this would be the number one place to look IMO. As you know there are thousands of variables that come into play. Every knob on your amp, placement of the SM57, preamp settings, and recording levels (as you've mentioned) all have a direct impact on the sound you record. Also, any effects like compression add to the picture. Sorry I can't be more help. There are just too many possibilities....

 

Guitplayer has done some excellent recordings lately and does a great job of getting his guitar down on tape (or hard disk these days).

Check out this thread:

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=005099

 

 

Stratosauros posted a link in the above thread and it is really interesting reading (it's in his quote below). After I read this I went back and tried to read the original threads, but all the info is condensed (so to speak- it's very long) in this thread by a guy called "ckerian". It's the rantings of a certain "Slipperman" who I'm assuming is some really good professional recording engineer. Good reading believe me. When you listen to the detail he goes into only on mic placement.... well you'll see.

 

Originally posted by Stratasaurus:

I ran across this thread a while back at the prosound recpit forum. It may not be exactly what your looking for in that it's not considering whether you have neighbors within a half-hour drive of your recording location.

 

It's a forum that's oriented for more of the pro engineering type and how a proper studio would go about collecting nasty guitar sounds. It's not very inviting to newbies. (That's all the warning I'll give)

 

http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=7486

Sorry I couldn't be more help. Good luck!

[alanfc]

Thank you sir-

I finally solved my own problem

 

By the way, yes it is dirty crunch guitar with a good level of Mids like at 6 on the dial, (no scooping mids here) and going into an Edirol UA-5 with AKM converters into Cakewalk HS XL

 

Anyway I solved the problem. =Input levels=.

 

Despite what people have always told me about getting as close to 0 db as possible, whenever I went around -3db input level recording, the sound would happen. Then, voila- I changed back to -6db as a peak for input level and all was solved. Digital distortion ? Before clipping? Well, whatever it was , its solved now. Doesn't matter how the numbers look. The odd thing is that when I record my drum machine line-in mono, and my bass the same, there is never any of this distortion when I push the level to near 0 db.

 

thanks alot for that link, that is fascinating..

[loubeck]

Originally posted by alanfc:

Thank you sir-

I finally solved my own problem

 

By the way, yes it is dirty crunch guitar with a good level of Mids like at 6 on the dial, (no scooping mids here) and going into an Edirol UA-5 with AKM converters into Cakewalk HS XL

 

Anyway I solved the problem. =Input levels=.

 

Despite what people have always told me about getting as close to 0 db as possible, whenever I went around -3db input level recording, the sound would happen. Then, voila- I changed back to -6db as a peak for input level and all was solved. Digital distortion ? Before clipping? Well, whatever it was , its solved now. Doesn't matter how the numbers look. The odd thing is that when I record my drum machine line-in mono, and my bass the same, there is never any of this distortion when I push the level to near 0 db.

 

thanks alot for that link, that is fascinating..

You were most definitely clipping your inputs. Contrary to what a lot of people think, you don't need incredibly "hot" levels while recording in digital. Even if it doesn't look like it's getting to 0db, transients (like pick attack) might clip without you even noticing. I typically track at -10 db and never have clipping problems.

 

It makes sense that the drum machine wouldn't clip becase the drum machine is putting out consistent levels. It is a bit strange that the bass wasn't clipping- were you recording the bass direct? Were you using compression?

[Lee Flier]

Yes, you should always aim for -6 to -12 peaks, you definitely CAN clip on digital gear without knowing it. This is because digital meters take their readings from the sample values, which can be as much as 6 dB lower than the actual waveform when it's reconstructed by the D/A converter!

 

So yes, you need to watch your input levels and make sure they're below -6. This will also give you more headroom when mixing so you don't clip your stereo bus. Just be sure to watch your levels at every stage of input and output (even digital ins and outs like plugins).

 

Don't be afraid to use a little of the RNC after the preamp to get a more consistent level going into the converter. The RNC is pretty transparent and may help you get some of the ballsiness you're after.

 

Another tip for recording amps: don't point the mic right into the speaker. Put it off axis a bit, otherwise most of the headroom will be used up by all the air being moved by the speaker, and the actual signal will sound thin. Same thing goes for kick drums. Move the mic around and listen to each position - you'll be surprised at how much changing the position or angle of the mic even a little bit makes a big difference for better or worse. Oh, and don't point the mic toward the center of the speaker either, point it closer to an edge. The center is nearly always too "woofy."