Killing onstage volume with tube amps

[Lee Flier]

Hey all,

 

We all know the age-old problem of guitarists who play with tube amps: they're highly directional, which means some of your audience (in a small club) is getting blasted out while others (perhaps including you) can't hear it properly. The obvious solution would be to mic it and have most of the sound come from the PA, but at the normal volume where you have to crank up a tube amp to get your tone, the sound man is usually loathe to turn up your mic.

 

So what do you do? Do you:

 

1) Use a smaller tube amp (and if so, which one, and does it really sound as good as your favorite amp?)

 

2) Use a power soak of some sort? (again, if so, which one, and doesn't it drastically affect the tone?)

 

3) Build an enclosure around your amp (how would you keep it from overheating?)

 

Or something else entirely?

[tld]

I used to play out in a blues band using a 100 watt Marshall that was unspeakably loud...but sounded great. I used a real hot Telecaster and an Echoplex and a 4x12 cabinet. We used to play pretty small places as well. I used to hang a really heavy wool army blanket (folded so it was at least double thickness) covering all but the bottom half or so of the lower two speakers. Then we'd mic it enough to bring out the high end that the blanket tended to muffle.

 

Sounds a bit off the wall, but it really did sound great without loosening the fillings it would have otherwise

 

Tom

[Blue Strat]

I'd probably opt for the small mic'ed amp solution. As far as what amp, they probably don't make the one I'd want to use. I'd build my own.

[Caevan O’Shite]

I've used an old GT Electronics (as in Groove Tubes) Speaker Emulator to great effect before... you may recall my gushing about them to you before, Lee. The newer models do both a "slaved"/DI thing that turns your tube amp into a big, monster direct preamp, and a "power soak" attenuation of your live speaker, if you like. Either or both; and it's just like connecting an old Celestion to your amp, by itself or in a parallel or series configuration with real speakers.

 

These, and the Marshall SE unit that was out a few years back, use a reactive load that is essentially a real speaker voice-coil without a cone. If you lean down near the enclosure, you can hear what sounds like the world's smallest and meanest Marshall 4x12 cab inside as you crank and wail through your amp!

 

Myles owns some of these too, you really should talk with him about them. He's also pretty juiced about some other power soak style attenuators on the market, but these GT E SE's and the Marshall SE's (Marshall liscenced the technology from Aspen Pittman/Groove Tubes) are the foremost, if not the only, units to use a real speaker voice coil and reactive-load design.

 

Like I say, with the new model GT E SE and Marshall SE units, you can go direct, attenuate, or both. And I swear, even if you just connect the unit to your amp's speaker out, and don't use it, and just use your usual compliment of speakers- as long as all the impedences are correct (the GT SE's have a selectable 4- 8- or 16-ohms)- it actually benefits the natural sound of your amp, bringing out the touch-sensitivity and feel just a little bit more. Honest!

 

The onliest bug I can think of is having to spend a little time finding the "sweet spot" for setting the input and output levels on the unit; but, I'd start with your amp set just the way it sounds best. And this doesn't even apply if you use it for attenuation, instead of the DI.

 

And there's absolutely NO digital this or modeling that involved at all, just vintage technology re-routed very imaginatively. How about that?

 

I highly recommend that you talk with Myles about these. He'll steer you right, for sure.

[freddynl]

I use some side legs (fender) to give the amp an angle of approx 65o

 

Helps a lot both for yourselve and the audience.

 

(I use a fender concert 60 watt most of the time)

 

Fred

[Caevan O’Shite]

Oh, Lee- I was thinking, in the case of that Pro Reverb of yours, you could swap out the output transformer for another Fender BF era OT, that would be 8 ohms, and just run one speaker in the cabinet. That might bring down the volume some, especially along with any of the other methods here, and push the speaker cone just a little bit harder, too. Just a thought.

[Lee Flier]

Ah, Cavean, I remember you talking about that thing! And yes, I'll call Myles about it. That may be just what I need. For some gigs I really need to kill the volume a lot more than I could even by just using one speaker.

[Lee Flier]

Well, I talked to Myles (who, as usual, ROCKS!!), and I think I may have my answer.

 

I'll report back with actual results tomorrow.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Yeah, Myles does rock!

 

Waitin' in suspense to hear what you two are cookin' up...

 

...as well as what that reference you made concerning PA systems, etc. on that "Stereo or mono" thread on the "for the band" forum is all about!

 

Of course, keep us posted!

[RangerJay]

What guitar/amp combination makes your "signature" sound?

 

If it's a LP and a Marshall, and you want that sound in a lower-volume setup, then I recommend the Carr Hammerhead.

 

You gotta crank it, and it doesn't do clean worth a shit, but it gives up the goods at a lower sound level.

 

I just got through practicing with a LP Standard DC, with humbuckers, through my Hammerhead. Loud. Gritty. Kick-ass.

 

Carr makes the Hammerhead with either a single 12" (which I have) or a 2 X 10" combination. Unfortunately, Carr does not offer a "head" deal, 'cause this thing kicks ass through either 2 X 12" or 4 X 12" cabinets.

 

However, in a club (100 people or less) setting, or in a recording studio, the Hammerhead 1 X 12" makes a damned fine sound. It sounds really great if you turn it UP! Really UP! When you make the EL34s work, they sound fantastic.

 

It depends on if you need to move air, whether you go with the standard 12" speaker or not.

 

This amp handles single-coils quite well, to boot.

[michael saulnier]

I've seen Larry Mitchell play with two really small amps, Pro Juniors, and he got a GREAT sound with a modest volume. Both amps were mic'd and the stage volume was low enough that the PA did most of the work for the main audience area. It's amazing how much sound they DO put out when they're turned up pretty far.

 

He used a variety of pedals to get different sounds and to kick up the overdrive, but it all sounded great, no problem with stage volume, and I can't see any reason that he would need a real loud amp to get his sound.

 

In another vein...

 

Although the effect of the "attenuation" devices like the THD Hot Plate are noticable, the trade-off in volume control and the ability to drive your poweramp tubes to whatever level makes them perform the best and still control that output makes up for it imho.

 

If you've never tried one of these, (there are several makers of different types), you may be happy enough to when you use it whenever you're doing that sort of gig.

 

I almost ALWAYS use it on my UniValve, and I can get some nice live sound at very reasonable volumes.

 

They cost much less than a new amp, don't require you to modify anything permanently, and if you buy one from one of the retailers who offers a 30 day return policy, you can play with it enough to see if you like it.

 

Or you could go with whatever MYLES suggested!

 

That's probably better!

 

guitplayer

[coyote]

Uhhhh, get a new soundman?

 

Seriously, there is something called unity gain. The soundman doesn't need to turn you up much, just enough to put the sound into the sides of the hall. If the mic is positioned correctly, you don't get feedback issues. And there are mics designed to handle such volume. Shure SM57s do just fine.

 

After 20+ years of this, I've arrived at these conclusions about soundmen:

a) Some are great, and know what they are doing. They are the ones who take whatever you present to them, and get it out into the venue. They're easy to work with, and the sound at their gigs is usually very good. I've found about 50% of soundmen fall into this category.

b) THE REST ARE IDIOTS. They labor under the illusion that their job is to control the band. They're the ones who constantly bitch about "man, all the bands who come through here suck and have crappy sound and are too loud - I can't make them sound good no matter how hard I try." These guys simply try too hard, or are desperate for attention. Otherwise they'd understand that, if they are doing their job well, they're essentially transparent.

 

The soundman you don't notice is the one most worthy of acclaim. The best ones I've worked with tend to be *musicians* from wedding bands. They know how to get things sounding good very quickly and unobtrusively

 

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

but at the normal volume where you have to crank up a tube amp to get your tone, the sound man is usually loathe to turn up your mic.

[Lee Flier]

coyote, I agree a lot of soundmen are idiots. However, that's not really what I meant. What I mean is that the soundman is quite often RIGHT in the path of the guitar amp's directional sound. He hears it louder than anybody, and therefore often doesn't want to turn it up in the PA so that the rest of the house can hear it. Sure, if he's good he might walk around the house and realize that most people can't hear it, and turn it up. But your average soundman at your average club ain't that great, and we've never had our own to this point.

 

However, we ARE going to be solving the soundman problem very soon, so I feel it will be "safe" to play at low volume and mic my amp... thus, my question.

 

RangerJay, what I usually use onstage is my '52 Les Paul and a blackface Fender Pro Reverb. So a Marshall type sound doesn't do it for me. I did look into the Carr Mercury which looks better suited to my purpose, but geez, it's $2100.

 

But, I think Myles gave me a winner suggestion here, and I'll let ya know in just a few hours! Headed over to my local dealer now...

[daddyelmis]

I personally think lower watt amps is the first key. I run either my Bassman RI (40 watt) or my Marshall DSL201 (20 watt) through a Weber Mass attentuator, and use both an SM57 on the speaker plus the DI output of the Mass. The amp is on an angled stand so it's aimed up at my ears instead of the considerably larger target of my posterior . I think that helps some, as well as using something (cases, racks) to block some of the speakers to protect the close in audience.

 

At the board, we mix the DI and SM57 to get what I think is a very good approximation of the straight cabinet.

[Sylver]

If you're using a combo, how about bucking tradition and using an amp stand and play facing your amp ... monitor style. Mic it up, and the sound guy can have a great tone with a controlable volume.

 

I've always wanted to try out a setup like that.

[philbo_Tangent]

Lee,

 

One option would be to get a small additional cab and a couple of power soaks.

 

Put the one power soak on your main cab (to keep stage volume reasonable), and set up the additional cab at ear level, setting it's power soak for your desired amount of earwax-loosening. One of those little mic-stand mounted monitors might be enough if it's close enough to you...

 

Regards,

Phil

[Lee Flier]

DUUUUUUDES!!!!

 

OK, I've found the answer and it's right here:

 

The Z Air Brake!

 

Myles said I should get this thing (even recommending over GT's own Speaker Emulator ) so I did, and all I can say is IT ROCKS. Does exactly what it's supposed to do, no more, no less: It'll attenuate your volume all the way down to practically nothing, and you still get your amp's tone! Plus, dig all this:

 

• Does not require any AC power or battery.
  
• Doesn't matter what your amp's impedence is or anything special like that, unlike the THD Hot Plate etc. It will work with any amp!
  
• Doesn't even seem to give off much heat!
  
• Even has feet on the bottom so it can sit on top of your amp and clear the handle.
  
• It's built like a tank, pretty indestructible. The casing, knobs and everything are just rock solid.
  

It really does retain all the characteristics and sensitivity of your amp, including the reverb and all. I've been messing around with it and my Pro Reverb for quite awhile now, and next I'm gonna try it with my big ol' Ampeg next! I can't believe this thing!

As usual, Myles is the man! He recommended exactly what I wanted and what I probably would not like. This thing is simple, relatively inexpensive and actually does the job. I'm psyched!

[michael saulnier]

 

Glad it worked out!

 

Let us know when you try it live the first time!

 

guitplayer

[Caevan O’Shite]

Lee, that's great!! I'm so happy for the... er... all of yez! (Wondering how many guitars, amps, Air Brakes, and Lee Fliers to count.)

 

Definitely return to this thread to update us on how it works out for you "live", with the Ampeg, etc.

 

If you get results with your BF Pro Reverb like I did with mine (and the GT SE), you'll know what I meant!

[daddyelmis]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Doesn't matter what your amp's impedence is or anything special like that, unlike the THD Hot Plate etc. It will work with any amp!

The folks at Dr. Z indicated the Airbrake will not work with a 2ohm load . . . ruling it out for my Bassman and some other Fender amps. It does however work with 16, 8 and 4 ohm.

 

This caused me to go with the Weber Mass (http://www.webervst.com/mass.html), which also includes a DI with tone/vol controls, and Ted can install an impedence selector (mine goes, 2/4/8/16 so it works with my marshall as well).

 

I previously owned an Alessandro Muzzle attenuator, which is fixed impedence like the Hot Plate (not sure why they don't make these all selectable since it doesn't strike me as reasonable to have separate $250 attentuators for each different impedance amp).

 

I really like both the Weber and the Allesandro. The Weber, IMHO, is a better value at it's price point, though it is a bigger package.

 

I personally think the attenuator market is just going to keep growing as the desire for cranked tube tone at reasonable, even small venue, voluem increases. This is great news for all tube junkies.

[stanner]

i am glad there is a solution for the problem that was posed...but fer me

i cannot get past this: guitar-tubes-amp-spkr.

it starts there and ends there for me-anything that gets in between any of that affects tone for me, anyway.

one setup(@ home!) i have is : strat-no pots-smokey amp-no pots-JBL D130F 15" spkr-about as pure as i can get...wonder if there is a tube guitar amp w/ one or less potentiometers?

[Lee Flier]

daddyelmis, thanks for the info on the Weber, will have to check out that one too!

 

Stanner, yeah I know what ya mean about getting the purest tone possible... it's REALLY tough for me to make the decision to put any other device inline. I've considered disconnecting the tone controls on my Les Paul, etc. But, every now and then I come across a stompbox or something that doesn't color the tone too much, and allows me to get a wider range of tones (or in this case, allows me to take my favorite amp to a wider range of gigs!), so I make a few compromises. But only a few!

 

I think I'll be recording some samples of the fully cranked amp vs. attenuated amp so you can decide for yourself!

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by stanner:

i am glad there is a solution for the problem that was posed...but fer me

i cannot get past this: guitar-tubes-amp-spkr.

it starts there and ends there for me-anything that gets in between any of that affects tone for me, anyway.

one setup(@ home!) i have is : strat-no pots-smokey amp-no pots-JBL D130F 15" spkr-about as pure as i can get...wonder if there is a tube guitar amp w/ one or less potentiometers?

Why not build your own? I think that the early Fender Champ's only have a volume control. Very simple circuit. Here's a schematic:

http://www.ampwares.com/ffg/schem/champ_5f1_schem.gif

[murfbass]

Hi Lee,

Some of the guys might have already hit on this. I haven't read the whole string.

Tube amps are no more directional than solid state amps. They are just louder for their rating. Amps, both solid state and tube, are rated at the watts RMS put out before distortion. That's important because a tube hase plenty more current to send before it maxes out. The transistor or chip does not. Also, tube amps produce even harmonic distortion which the ear hears as pleasant. Solid state distortion is odd-harmonic and harsh to the ear. That means that a tube amp can sound clean even past the point when the sound wave begins to square off. That is how old sound reinforcement rigs could power arena shows with only a few hundred watts. The audience didn't know that they were hearing distortion and the equipment was putting out way more power than it was rated at.

 

Anyway, the problem is that closer is louder no matter what. If you have play your onstage sound for the audience, you should point your amp over the audiences head, at an angle so that it will hit the ceiling and rebound to the back row. Since the sound does not hit bodies on the way past, it is not absorbed and volume lost. Make sure that some of the peripheral angles of your speaker cone still can hit the front row. The depth and angle of the cone walls can effect the throw power of the amp. I forget the name of the cone cure but some PA speakers have a convex shape that disperses sound more evenly.

 

Please do not change the output transformer of your amp. It has to be matched to your power transformer and the plate impedence of your output tubes. The output tranny only steps down the impedance to the load of your voice coil. If you changed to an 8 ohm or 16 ohm winding with the corresponding speaker, your amp would run exactly the same. If you use a speaker load different than the tranny winding on a tube amp, there is little change because tubes are self-regulating and will eventually pinch off excess current.

Hope I didn't bore you with too much useless info.

 

Murf

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by murfbass:

Tube amps are no more directional than solid state amps. They are just louder for their rating.

Yes, I know that. I was just referring to tube amps specifically because that's what I use, and because their directionality is an even bigger problem due to their volume.

 

Anyway, the problem is that closer is louder no matter what.

Yes, agreed. So what I'm trying to do is run the amp at low volume and face it away from the stage, and mic it. That way most of the sound is distributed through the PA, and the audience hears it more evenly throughout the house. This Air Brake seems to give me the ability to do that.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Many classic Fenders are virtually identical, with the exception of their OT's and speaker compliments (and the ensuing cabinet size).

 

Perfectly compatible OT's in a variety of impedances and overall masses* are available, both new, N.O.S., and "pulls", to enable you to tailor a tube-amp to your needs.

 

A common upgrade for bf Fender Pro Reverbs is to replace the OT with one from a bf or sf Bassman head to tighten and strengthen the low-end, yielding a "bigger" sound, even more like that of a Twin Reverb.

 

* (For instance, one might use an OT with similar specs but a decidedly smaller size and weight to deliberately induce more OT saturation and "grind"; or, the reverse for greater headroom and a more robust bottom-end.)

[strat0124]

My solution has always been to place the amps right on the floor, and turn it up loud enough to get a decent tone. If possible position it where you won't kill the drummer or cause the singer to go hoarse trying to sing above your amp. Nothing is worse to me than using a device to "make" your overdrive rather than letting your amp speak. I have even used a smaller tube amp, and guess what, even they can be way loud once you get them up enough to get some good natural overdrive. I used to have a Super Six, and it was impossible to get a good overdrive unless it was concert stage loud. A Super Reverb is about the same, just about impossible for club play. I get really good service from my Hot Rod Deville, its got 4 tens and the clean channel when turned up, sounds pretty blackface-ish. Also used a Blues Jr/Pro Jr together for a really honking ballsy tone, again even they can be oppressively loud in a three peice. I've posted a rough live recording a while back that a fan recorded with a minidisc at the back of the room when I was leaning on that Blues jr/Pro Jr combination on a song called "4X4 Girl". I defy anyone to match that tone for the dollar. Its worth checking into.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Geenard Skeenard:

My solution has always been to place the amps right on the floor, and turn it up loud enough to get a decent tone.

Yeah, that's been mine to this point, too. However, "loud enough to get a decent tone" is often still really loud in the house. I have to turn my Pro up to about 5 to get a good tone and that's already pushing 115 dB in the sweet spot. I do use a volume pedal, which helps a lot, but still. It's just too loud for a lotta places.

 

Nothing is worse to me than using a device to "make" your overdrive rather than letting your amp speak.

Yeah I agree, except for occasionally using a fuzz box. But that's different.

 

I have even used a smaller tube amp, and guess what, even they can be way loud once you get them up enough to get some good natural overdrive.

Yep.

[coyote]

This is why a full stack, even though it looks monstrous and is difficult to move, is so important. The speakers on the floor help immensely in rounding out your tone. But if that's all you have, they are firing at your butt instead of your ears. With a full band, your sound naturally seems to get 'lost'.

 

Now put that second cabinet up top.... you get the round 'bottom' tone AND you get the sound straight at your head. Now you know how loud you really are! And you can therefore turn down, and not blast your soundman into oblivion.

 

BTW, a "full stack" doesn't have to be 2 Marshall cabinets. It can be a 2x12 stood vertically, with a good 1x12 tube combo up top.

 

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Geenard Skeenard:

My solution has always been to place the amps right on the floor, and turn it up loud enough to get a decent tone.

Yeah, that's been mine to this point, too.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by coyote:

This is why a full stack, even though it looks monstrous and is difficult to move, is so important. The speakers on the floor help immensely in rounding out your tone. But if that's all you have, they are firing at your butt instead of your ears. With a full band, your sound naturally seems to get 'lost'.

Yeah, but the house is still getting blasted, because you really do have to turn up a big tube amp quite a bit in order to get any tone. And I really don't like to have an amp pointed right in my face - then all I hear is myself, and not my bandmates. I don't play as aggressively then OR as sensitively, I just have to play the song and trust that my bandmates are doing what they're supposed to do. Which works in a pinch, but I don't enjoy it.