Stop The World, I Want To Get Off....

[Wrave]

Phaeton, very, very well put. Last week I heard a review on NPR about a German movie "Blind Spot - Hitler's Secretary" that is soon to be released in the US. The documentarians interviewed Hitler's secretary and the entire film is that interview. I wish I could remember exactly how she put it but I'll have to paraphrase. She looks back at her days with Hitler.. "I am amazed at how naieve, unaware and unthinking we were. We looked upon him as a father figure." The Reviewer summed up his feelings on this important film by saying... "No one should be so certain of their moral correctness." ...and then quotes Santayana "those who do not learn from the past are forced to repeat it." For me it seems the leaders of this country have assumed the moral high ground with little other than the strength of force to give that stance credence. I understand phaeton very well.

[phaeton]

I seriously expected to come in this morning and find this on the second page with one or two "you're an ass" or "yawn" type responses. Wow. I'm completely bowled over with your responses. Really. I went out on a limb to spill my guts. And not only did you guys listen, but you've lessened my pain. Told me it was "Ok". I don't feel so alone now. Thanks. Thanks to everyone. I'm at work now and i'm fighting back the tears welling in my eyes. And it feels as though i've been carrying something very heavy for a long time, but it's not so heavy now.

[Uh Clem]

A few things crossed my mind after sleeping on this... First, let me say that I have not made up my mind on where I stand on our government's current action toward war. I don't think that being American obligates me to agree with it, either. Second, if we as Americans are not responsible and are not going to be responsible for our governments actions, then who should be? Reminds me of when my Dad used to say, "if you don't clean your room, I'm going to clean it for you" - and he did not mean that as a favor. I think it behooves us as Americans to sort it out. Third... [quote] I stay home at night. I surf the web. I play my guitar. I help people in a Linux Support Channel on IRC. When it snows, i help my landlady shovel the sidewalks, because she's in her 70s. I try to walk lightly in my second floor apartment, because i'm trying to be nice to the lady that lives below me. I keep my music turned down to a respectable level. I say "please" and "thankyou" when appropriate. [/quote]You know, that sounds nice, but it seems like you'd prefer everyone esle to take care of the big picture for you - hell, I would too, but then I'm thinking about cleaning my room and all and well, maybe I need to be involved as much as I can after all. I do agree that it is difficult to know what is going on and what is driving this war. It bothers me that world leaders who presumedly have access to much better information than I do, are not behind it. Somewhere there is a disconnect. [quote] I am very sorry when someone says people are dying in thier country because of the United States Government. I am also sorry that i didn't know about it. I have never been there. And I am not The United States Government. [/quote]I'm not sure how you meant this - maybe I took it literally and you meant something else. Literally, though, that doesn't work for me. We as Americans, in looking out for ourselves, have to understand and own these issues - no matter how difficult or overwhelming they seem. Here's a quote from another group that was mentioned recently in a post here - one of my all time favorite lines: "Sometimes, I hear, it's up to you" and another quote from the same writer: [quote] [from a Lifesong biography sheet, circa 1978] You can observe for so long," writes Palumbo, "and then it all starts to look the same and you become an alien. To dive into the absurdity and swallow the nonsense and swim in the peace and violence ... that's the thing. There is no such thing as an innocent bystander. [/quote]Exactly what I was trying to say.

[phaeton]

[b] First, let me say that I have not made up my mind on where I stand on our government's current action toward war. I don't think that being American obligates me to agree with it, either.[/b] Exactly. [b] Second, if we as Americans are not responsible and are not going to be responsible for our governments actions, then who should be? Reminds me of when my Dad used to say, "if you don't clean your room, I'm going to clean it for you" - and he did not mean that as a favor. I think it behooves us as Americans to sort it out.[/b] This does make sense to a certain degree. In the case of your room, it's your mess, so of course it's your responsibility to clean it up. In the case of world events, sure it is *my* government that is trying to force Iraq to comply with UN Weapons Inspectors. I'm not telling the U.S. Government to do this. In fact, I'd prefer that the U.S. backs off a little bit, and allows the U.N. to handle it. At least for a little while. This will make it look less like "Bush is bullying Iraq". It's been covered before how hypocritical that appears. But i really don't know if there is anything that i can say, sing or do that would change what the U.S. Government, the U.N. and Iraq are doing right now. I realise that this is somewhat of a cop out. But on the same token, any actions that i can think up as something for me to do will only have an affect in a very small way locally. Not only that, all i would be able to do is stir the pot and exacerbate and already fraught situation. I don't think that would help anything at all. [b] Third... quote: I stay home at night. I surf the web. I play my guitar. I help people in a Linux Support Channel on IRC. When it snows, i help my landlady shovel the sidewalks, because she's in her 70s. I try to walk lightly in my second floor apartment, because i'm trying to be nice to the lady that lives below me. I keep my music turned down to a respectable level. I say "please" and "thankyou" when appropriate. You know, that sounds nice, but it seems like you'd prefer everyone esle to take care of the big picture for you - hell, I would too, but then I'm thinking about cleaning my room and all and well, maybe I need to be involved as much as I can after all. [/b] Okay yes. I *would* actually prefer that other people would take care of the "Big Picture". I'll agree this is actually a rather selfish attitude. But the bottom line is that i don't know what part i have to play in this. Me. My part. I'm trying to figure it out, i really am. But for me go running around protesting, or spreading propaganda, or ridiculing the actions of others would be very wrong when i don't know my ass from a hole in the wood. The last thing we all need is another loud idiot. It won't help anything. I guess the real crux of what i was getting at in the whole opening post, is "Please don't judge every American Citizen by what The American Government is doing." No different than "Please don't judge a person of colour by what one or several people of colour do." And of course: "Please don't judge a citizen of ANY country by the actions of their other citizens or government." I think the propaganda in this entire event, and even leading up to this event is going in all directions. I think a lot of the people of the world shouting accusations and pointing fingers are going about things half-cocked. But i don't know that for sure. I'm really not sure of anything anymore. [b]a little Deep Purple there?[/b] Indeed. That song is full of a lot of excellent points that i can relate to. Both in this situation, and many others. It's funny, they sang about these things years before i was even born, but it's just as relevant today. I probably also should have included the "It's only the glitter and shine gets through" as well. But we can save that one for the Music Industry. :) Thankyou Steve, for taking the time to read what i have to say, think about it, and offer your thoughts :)

[revdiablo]

Let me start off by saying I am not a regular here. I have read a few threads, all of which phaeton directed me towards. I have known him for a long time on IRC (in fact, I am a regular in the IRC channel he mentions), but I am a newbie here. I apologize if I break any customs or anger anybody with my possible 'outsider' status. I would not normally post at all in a forum with which I am not accustomed and acclimated to, but there's something about this post that I can't resist. It was in the wee hours of a Sunday morning (or Saturday night, depending on one's perspective) that this url was coyly pasted to my via a /msg in irc, with the added note that "this isn't funny." As I read, it dawned on me how true that statement was. This post was not funny. It was not a political statement. It was not intended to shock or incense anybody. It was poetry, pure and simple. The physical embodiment of emotion, in the form of words. I also think the message itself is very important. I read it as "I Do Not Have All The Answers." In an age when we have instant access to thousands of sources of information, and it's even pumped into our senses by the truckload, it's still very possible to not know something. And not only is it possible, it's good. A world with perfect knowledge would be dull indeed. These thoughts, combined with the discussion that followed the Pasting of the Link, combined to put me in what can only be described as quite a gooey mood. The more I thought about it, the gooeier it got. I began thinking of appropriate song lyrics, such as "you're worried there might not be / anything at all inside / but that you're worried / should tell ya that's not right" by the inevitable Ben Folds. This made it simply impossible to pass the opportunity to get these feelings recorded. I apologize for unloading my ramblings upon you, but I had to put them somewhere. :) psst: The depressed/drive-the-truck-into-a-train undertone made me extremely sad. It should be obvious from the replies that someone *would* care if phaeton died, and to think otherwise is just untrue.

[the stranger]

[quote]Originally posted by C.M.: [b]Maybe I am stupid, maybe I am ignorant, the world is in a BAD place right now and the only thing I know is to give MY government the benefit of the doubt. Some might say that is stupid, but I sure as hell am not going to give my "way of life" to the U.N.. The U.N. will be irrelevant in a month and the world will be different. Will it be a better place? I have no idea, but I WILL NOT put my future in the hands of MR. Annon or Mr. Blix. My vote is for Bush, and YES if al gore WOULD have won then I would be backing him. (as we all know, if gore had won,9-11 would have come and gone by now). [b]I thank god everyday that GWB "stole" the election![/b][/b][/quote]I think it could be argued that 9/11 might not have happened had Al Gore won. You think the terrorists didn't consider the response would be clearly one way or another depending on which party was in power?

[Mark Borland]

Elloquent, heartfelt and honest. All the best phaeton

[Super 8]

A fantastic piece, Phaeton! Thanks so much for sharing. One thing we are not lacking are critics who sit in their EZ chairs and rant about what's wrong with everybody else. I NEVER ONCE got the impression from you that you were "stupid". You know what you know. You might believe what you are told, but 'believing' and 'knowing' are NOT the same things. You prefer to operate on what you 'know', and you seem to maintain a healthy level of skepticism (NOT cynicism) about what you are told. This does not sound like a "stupid" person to me. Quite the opposite, actually... I really appreciated the way you presented all of the conflicting information you are given. I feel the same way. One person says America is hated by all. Another person says, the world loves America. One person says the war is wrong. Another person says it's right. Both sides can go on and on presenting information to bolster their argument. Then it comes down to the whole Liberal versus Conservative thing... And if you go so far as to make up your mind, someone else comes in and tells you that you've been brainwashed. Given that, you are made to feel that you REALLY can't even trust your own judgement. And yet, through it all there HAS to be a RIGHT and a WRONG side to this. So THAT means you can't just throw your hands up and say 'screw it, who cares?'... I have often wished I could walk up to Master Yoda, or that blind dude on Kung Fu, and say "Please, straighten this out for me. Tell me what to belive!". But it doesn't work that way does it...? I mean, you can ask people and you'll likely get an answer -but it will be their opinion, and that's all... I wish I could offer you some comforting words, but unfortunately I have none. I'm in the same boat you are! About the only thing I can say with any degree of certainty, is that razorblades, bombs, and driving into trains is a BAD idea. Don't do those things. You are on this earth for a reason. You may not know what that reason is yet, but there is one. Don't go checking out until your time is up. I always loved that movie "It's a Wonderful Life", because it's true; we really don't know the full effect of our actions on others. That smile you give to a stranger on the street could be the one thing that changes their life for the better -you just don't know...

[ulven]

Phaeton, that was one of the best post I have read here ever. I was deeply touched by it. Thank you. This world needs more people like you. [quote]Originally posted by phaeton: [b][b] I guess the real crux of what i was getting at in the whole opening post, is "Please don't judge every American Citizen by what The American Government is doing." [/b][/quote]For what its worth, I want you all to know that regardless of what the media wants you to belive, very, very few European Citizens (none that I know of) does that. Its been said before, but it deserves to be repeated again and again. Best regards, Ulven :wave: