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Acoustic Guitar Advice Req'd


Ronin

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Hi all,

I'm over here in the states from Sydney, and I've been playing a few acoustic-only gigs around where I'm staying - enough to warrant me to get my own acoustic. Currently, I'm just using a basic Martin that I'm borrowing from a friend of mine, and want to purchase my own in the immediate future, so I need some advice on a good acoustic guitar @ a fairly competitive price (let's say that means between the USD$1000 to $2000 dollar range). Most importantly, it must have that nice, sharp high end sizzle, along with a pronounced, round bottem end punch, and be able to get that sound plugged straight into a mixer.

 

FWIW, the actual acoustic sound un-plugged doesn't have to be so great, b/c pretty much all of my gigs are for audiences of around 100 or so people where I'm going D.I into a mixer....

 

Any ideas ? If so, thx in advance.

 

Rs,

Ronin

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Originally posted by Ronin:

Hi all,

I'm over here in the states from Sydney, and I've been playing a few acoustic-only gigs around where I'm staying - enough to warrant me to get my own acoustic. Currently, I'm just using a basic Martin that I'm borrowing from a friend of mine, and want to purchase my own in the immediate future, so I need some advice on a good acoustic guitar @ a fairly competitive price (let's say that means between the USD$1000 to $2000 dollar range). Most importantly, it must have that nice, sharp high end sizzle, along with a pronounced, round bottem end punch, and be able to get that sound plugged straight into a mixer.

 

FWIW, the actual acoustic sound un-plugged doesn't have to be so great, b/c pretty much all of my gigs are for audiences of around 100 or so people where I'm going D.I into a mixer....

 

Any ideas ? If so, thx in advance.

 

Rs,

Ronin

I may be partial here, but I prefer the sound of a Taylor to a martin! The martins are OK for strumming, but the way I play is fingerpicking. I use a taylor 312 CE (smaller body) (electric/accoustic with the fishman EQ and pickups) I paid $1180 (list for $1,800) at Chuck Levins Washington Music Center....the cheapest place I have seen on the net in the US for Taylor guitars!! By the way, all the Taylors come with their own fitted hardshell case! You can go to www.taylorguitars.com to read about them. All I can tell you is that I was in a music store one day and picked up one....I never wanted a Martin again! From then on, a year later I FINALLY got up enough money to get one! I have not been dissapionted since! You can go to www.washingtonmusic.com to check out the prices on Taylors.
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Originally posted by Fingerstyle_Jim:

I think you should be able to find a Takemine that works for you, I'm not up on the model names/numbers for the steel string guitars but I've had an electric/classical Takemine for several years that works great, especially plugged in(for live work),

 

Jim

For live performance, it's hard to beat a Takamine or a gibson Chet Aktins CE (the "Dave Matthews" axe).

 

If you look at most live bands that play an acoustic guitar, you'll see a lot of Takamine's. they are built like tanks and sound really nice through a PA. Higher quality acoustics (Martin, Taylor, Lowden, etc) sound fantastic, but (IMHO) unless you're doing fingerstyle work, their subtleties can be lost in a PA.

 

I play one of the Chet Atkins because you effectively eliminate the feedback problem you can get with a traditional acoustic on stage (and I'm not playing at loud volumes).

 

My $0.02 :)

www.ruleradio.com

"Fame is like death: We will never know what it looks like until we've reached the other side. Then it will be impossible to describe and no one will believe you if you try."

- Sloane Crosley, Village Voice

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Check out Guild guitars if you want a solid road worthy acoustic. Guild quality is world known and my F47CE has proved itself time and time again.
And as always...remember...This is just my road weary opinion.
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and be able to get that sound plugged straight into a mixer.

 

Not possible. The preamps and under the saddle pickups built into acoustic guitars arent very good and are unusable for anything but simple strumming. This is something Ive been working at for years. Ive gone through at least 6 or 8 different pickups and not a few preamps. There are only 2 systems worthy of mention as of this writing. The one Im having the best success with is a Sunrise soundhole pickup through a Boss AD5 preamp with a DBX 160XT compressor. The Boss can be a tad noisy if you boost the high end but you generally dont need to do that with most guitars. Its almost good enough to record with in conjunction with the Sunrise. I also have an LR Baggs flexible under the saddle pickup for getting a better 5th fret harmonic and a little extra high end. I do some very delicate fingerpicking and its quite good for that. It has the added bonus of being microphone free so volume isnt an issue at all.

 

The other system is a little trickier to use. Ive tried a Taylor Grand Auditorium with a built in Fishman system through a Yamaha AG Stomp and its also great sounding. This particular Fishman system incorporates an under the saddle pickup along with a mini-mic built onto the side of the built-in preamp, just under the corner of the soundhole. Using the mini-mic and the saddle pickup together through the AG Stomp is terrific but...the problem is that youre using a mic in this system and like all mics itll feedback with very much volume. Often youll find yourself using just the pickup itself and that doesnt sound very good. It might work for a solo gig in a small club but if you need more volume in a bigger place you end up going ala the mini-mic.

 

I read somewhere awhile back that Taylor has joined with Rupert Neve and is incorporating a new kind of pickup system along with a custom made preamp that Neve designed specifically for this system. By all accounts its noting short of magical. I think Taylors going to be putting this system in all of their acoustic/electric models in the future. They arent out yet but I cant wait to try it. I just found a link about it:

 

http://www.pro-music-news.com/html/03/e30114ta.htm

 

In the meantime, do look into the two systems I mentioned above. I think that right now a Sunrise through a Boss AD5 is the best combination and Boss quit making the AD5 last year so you can find them at closeouts here and there really cheap. Otherwise its a $400 dollar unit. Heres what my system looks like and of course you can use it in any guitar. Ill post a little 30-second recording of it also that I made an hour ago. This is without the Baggs pickup, which is on the blink, but it doesnt add much to the sound anyway. The reverb is also coming from the Boss unit and sounds incredible. If anybody else has a good sounding pickup and/or preamp system please post a small mp3 file if you can. Im always looking for a better way to do things....

 

http://spring.phpwebhosting.com/~hackett/sunrise_yairi_dy71.jpg

 

http://spring.phpwebhosting.com/~hackett/boss_ad5.jpg

 

http://spring.phpwebhosting.com/~hackett/sunrise.mp3

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It's been a while since I seriously checked out good acoustics, but when I bought my 12-string, I found that the Ovation (Elite) sounded much fuller across the whole range than the Martin (don't remember the model anymore) both acoustically, and when plugged in. It was also substantially less expensive. Don't get me wrong, Martins are great guitars, but I was quite happy to discover something that fit me better.

 

You didn't mention where in the States you are, but if you are near PA, you might want to check out the Martin factory.

May all your thoughts be random!

- Neil

www.McFaddenArts.com

www.MikesGarageRocks.com

 

 

 

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Originally posted by Ronin:

Hi all,

FWIW, the actual acoustic sound un-plugged doesn't have to be so great, b/c pretty much all of my gigs are for audiences of around 100 or so people where I'm going D.I into a mixer....

 

Any ideas ? If so, thx in advance.

 

Rs,

Ronin

If it doesn't sound good un-plugged it won't sound good plugged in either, regardless of the pickup / mic system you use. However, if it sounds good un-plugged you can still have it sound bad with a lousy pickup.

 

Our Joint

 

"When you come slam bang up against trouble, it never looks half as bad if you face up to it." The Duke...

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That new Taylor system sounds like it's going to be amazing.

 

When choosing an acoustic keep in mind that the type of wood the sides and back are made of can greatly effect the tone. Rosewood sides and back yeild a very mellow, rich, even sound. I don't like rosewood sides, because they always sound the same. Mahogany sides and back, will yeild a sound with more bite, and also seems to have more dynamic range to me, and I think you can get more different colorations of tone from a guitar with mahogany sides and back. I think the sound you're looking for would best be served by a guitar with mahogany sides and back. A lot of that sound is probably negated by going into a PA, but still something to consider.

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Hi all,

Thx fr all the replies - I'm going to hit the stores early this coming week, and chk out some of yr ideas - I'll keep you posted how I go....

 

Thx again,

 

Ronin

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Hey, stop the presses! I went over to Guitar Center in St. Louis today (the Crestwood end of town in case anyone lives close by) because I got something in the mail from them about a 4th of July weekend sale, and they had a Taylor with the new Neve preamp and pickup system, so I finally got to hear one.

 

I plugged it into one of two Trace Elliot Amps (the larger of the two) and was very impressed. I'm not sure which model Taylor it was but I'm sure it was either a Concert Grand or a Grand Auditorium. It didn't feel quite big enough to have been the Auditorium to me and I can't make heads or tails of the numbers on the tags at this store. Anyhow, if anyone lives close and goes over there, just look for the most expensive Taylor in the place. They had a $2600 price on it. Concert and Auditorium models are the only Taylors I've ever cared for and whichever model this one was, it was one of the best sounding guitars acoustically that I've ever played.

 

The pickup sound was very well balanced as acoustic guitars go, although it suffered the same fate they all seem to of the third string not being as loud as the others. But as I say, as acoustics go it was quite well balanced with and without the pickup. The pickup and preamp system was extremely unobtrusive; I couldn't see it at all inside the hole and the three knobs (treble, bass, volume) on the upper bout were almost flat with the surface of the guitar. I thought that was nice. From the audience's perspective, they probably wouldn't see a thing. It may have been the closest in sound to a mic I've heard yet. If you've heard one of the better Taylor equipped Fishman systems (the ones with the mini-mic on the preamp) through an AG Stomp, I'd say this system sounded a lot like that but with the advantage of not actually having a true microphone, so feedback was almost nonexistent.

 

If I had the cash I mightve bought it on the spot. It was that good.

 

I know $2600 sounds like a lot but Taylors hold their value well. And when you consider that my own system involves a layout of $170 for the Sunrise pickup and $90 for the LR Baggs, and $400 for the Boss AD5 preamp, the Taylor starts looking much better. I had the controls on the Trace amp almost flat so I have to think this guitar would sound great straight to the board.

 

If anybody else has the chance to play one of these please post your opinions. Especially if you have the chance to put it straight to a mixer. I've never heard an acoustic pickup that sounded good without either going through an AG Stomp or a Boss AD5, but this may just be the one.

 

PS, if anyone listens to that sound file I posted, you might want to add a little treble to it. I was a bit hasty it seems and didn't really work at getting quite as good a sound as I could. If you'd like to hear how the same guitar sounds through a mic, for comparison purposes, I have a soundfile that's sort of an outtake from a practice session (which unfortunately is quite a bit longer at around 2 1/2 minutes--sorry.) My playing is terrible on it and I was trying a stereo mic technique which involves placing one mic over the right shoulder but out more toward the guitar's face a little. The sound wouldn't have been too bad except you can hear me breathing through the mic like that. It's just a pair of Octava MK 012's.

 

Smiling Strangers

 

Good luck Ronin.

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I'd have to agree with everyone that you can't get a good acoustic tone plugged in, regardlesds of how good your pickup is, etc. IMO the only true acoustic tone is an unplugged pure, freshly stringed wood acoustic guitar. The best ones are made by Martin and Taylor, and I can't find an acoustic I like for under a grand. I guess in this case you reallly are paying for your tone. I want a Taylor 414CE. It sounds absolutely beautiful, and delivers a bright, yet still warm tone. Martins are awesome as well, but they seem to lack a nice midrange, which really helps an acoustic guitar to define chords, especially sevenths and other jazz or "coffe-house" chords.

I have seen a lot of $500 - $1000 dollar acoustics that sound good as well, but I'm not planning on a purchase until I have the grand and a half to buy a Taylor. Nothing else comes close to what I love about that guitar.

Shut up and play.
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I never played a Taylor that I thought sounded good, but as I only tried out a couple of models, don't go by that. Some Martin models respond better to electronics than others. Problem is, the ones I heard that sound good plugged in are the D-28 and D-35, and are usually priced higher than you say you have to pay.

 

Alvarez also makes some really good sounding axes, but I don't know which models come with electrics. You could always find an acoustic you like and have electrics installed. That way, you'll get the system you prefer, rather than the "in-house" electrics that may not be all that good.

 

Whitefang

I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
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Originally posted by revolead:

I'd have to agree with everyone that you can't get a good acoustic tone plugged in, regardlesds of how good your pickup is, etc.

I would beg to differ. Lowden LSE II through an LR Baggs ParaDI then straight to the board (carvin 1604 through Carvin amps). I run an older Effectron II through the LR Baggs loop for light flanging occassionally.

 

From recordings and audience comments, and my own (biased) ear, the acoustic tone of this guitar comes right through. You don't get quite the same decay of the tone as a pure mic'd acoustic, granted.

www.ruleradio.com

"Fame is like death: We will never know what it looks like until we've reached the other side. Then it will be impossible to describe and no one will believe you if you try."

- Sloane Crosley, Village Voice

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Alvarez also makes some really good sounding axes

 

Lowden LSE II

 

As a matter of fact I meant to mention this Ronin, but if you havent picked up one of the more expensive Yairi models lately you really should. Im a big Lowden fan like the above guy and I swear the better Yairis sound just like them but at half the price. Im currently using a DY71 and it really is a fingerpickers dream. I bought it at Music Folk in St. Louis and was willing to pay twice the price for a new Guitar at the time, having just retired my old guitar after 20-years. Music Folk handles the best of the best, i.e. Larrivee, Lowden, Taylor, used vintage stuff, and even the special run Martins at $4000 plus. Right along side of them were the Yairis at just over a thousand bucks. I very nearly brought home a Lowden but the DY71 sounded so nice and fit my hand so well that I decided to say what the heck and bought it instead. I dont remember what I paid for it but the list price was only $1200. No electronics in it but I didnt want any of that built-in stuff. (Although I would make an exception with these new Taylors.)

 

Stay away from any Alvarez that doesnt say Yairi on it though. Theyre nothing but cheap student grade models these days and are made in a completely different factory from the Yairi guitars. Theyre thoroughly horrible. The Yairi however is truly a handmade work of art. And yes, each one is completely handmade by either Kazuo Yairi himself or one of his staff. That is, one man builds each guitar himself rather than one guy making necks, another doing the finishing, another the dovetail joint etc. One of these days people are gonna wake up and realize what a piece of art these guitars are. As far as Im concerned theyre a steal at $1200.

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Originally posted by Spiderbluz:

Check out Guild guitars if you want a solid road worthy acoustic. Guild quality is world known and my F47CE has proved itself time and time again.

Gotta 2nd that...Guilds are as good (or better) than anything else out there.

 

And as for those who can't get a good sound out of a UST, may I suggest you keep trying?...Lot's of guitarists have succeeded, and with a little more effort, you can too!

"Legalize Freedom!"

 

Thought for the day: To be loved deeply gives one strength; to love another deeply gives one courage - Lao Tzu

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Ronin

 

No-one hardly ever mentions what in my opinion are the best guitars ever made, Daion, try and get hold of one and I guaranteee you'll never let it go!

All the best

Dave

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"No-one hardly ever mentions what in my opinion are the best guitars ever made, Daion, try and get hold of one and I guaranteee you'll never let it go!"

 

Boy there's been a lot of coincidences in this thread. That guitar I said I had retired after about 20-years was a Daion Heritage 77. I literally wore it out; big gouges in the fretboard, a few cracked braces now and then, and I even had to replace the bridge plate once. I hauled that thing all over creation. The last time I played it was at the Grandnational Fingerpick competitions in Winfield a few years ago.

 

Do you by any chance know what happened to that company? I heard a rumor that they went belly up because of something having to do with some bad varnish. Supposedly they refinished a big batch of guitars where the finishes had cracked fully expecting the varnish manufacturer to reimburse them...which they didnt. :cry: At least that was the story I got. This would be a good question for Anderton.

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O.K., I've had some rather spiritual moments playing expensive Gibson, Larivee, Louden, Martin, and other flat-tops, and have long favored Alvarez-Yairis, as I have a battle-scarred old DY-51 with a cedar top and heavily figured burled mahogany sides and back. Somehow, I suspect that a Santa Cruz or Collings would really send me into a blissfull trance-state, though I haven't been fortunate enought to cross paths with any yet.

 

But, given your described needs and wants, I'd have to agree with those who recommend Taylors to you. They definitely tend to have that "sizzle" and "bottom end punch" inherent in most or all of their models. Very modern, though still "woody", sounding guitars.

 

And, probably for a smaller investment, an Alvarez Yairi model might ring your bell.

 

Now, I'd insist on new strings on any expensive flat-top that I was seriously considering, just to level the playing field and minimize anything that could skew your comparissons.

 

Good luck! -k

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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Originally posted by whitefang:

I never played a Taylor that I thought sounded good, but as I only tried out a couple of models, don't go by that.

Whitefang

I'm not saying Taylor's are the only good acoustics by any means, just the one's I prefer. I've tried a couple Martins in the Taylor 414CE range, and didn't like them as much, but never tried enough to make a judgement.

I think a Taylor would make a lousy fingerpicking guitar though. I like for a great acoustic rock tone, not for classical guitar, but I'm sure it would work very well for any other type of music.

BTW - My friend's dad has a couple of Rainsong acoustics. They have a graphite body, but they do sound really good. They don't deliver a good woody tone, but nonetheless very impressive. Never heard them plugged in though.

Shut up and play.
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Hey thanks for the link Dave! From what I read there it appears Im not the only one in the dark as to what really happened with Daion Guitars. I wonder if well ever know? I didnt see a picture of the Heritage 78 at either page although I did see a pic of the 12-string version. I always wanted one of those.

 

Both pages look to be in need of some pics for the various models. Do you know either of those guys? Ive got an old pic of my Heritage 78, but unfortunately Im playing it so its not the guitar by itself. I wonder if theyd want it until they got a better photo though? Tell em they can find it here if they want it: Charlie\'s Daion

 

It aint too great and the butt end of the guitar is out of range but they might think its better than nothing. I used to go up and practice in my mom and dads attic when I first got out of the Army, so this was around 79 or 80. Maybe they can crop my head and junk out of it. I wish I had a better one but I got rid of a bunch of old music photos when I got out of the music bizz more than a decade ago. Im kind of back in it now a little (just for fun though) and wish I had some of those pics back. I had some great ones I took of Steve Morse with his Frankenstein guitar back when the Dixie Dregs were just starting out that I was nuts to throw away. So it goes, eh?

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Nathar,

 

I got given (about 6 months ago) a Daion Mark V 12 string in excellent condition and even though it's 32 year old it sounds better than any I've heard and it has an action that a baby could play. When I got it I immediately scoured the internet and found out that Yamaki and Co Ltd were guitar makers who were taken to court by someone which led to them selling all their designs etc to Daion who bought a factory in Texas USA but after only a year or two because the guitars were imported and cheap, they soon folded. The Daion guitar has a mystique about it because Daion was joined to the makers of Terada guitars which are great in their own right. The reputation of Daion guitars has come about because of their rarity combined with the glowing references from the few lucky owners around the world. Mine would hold it's own against any other 12 string on the market and would probably beat most of them. Now and again you get a Daion going for sale on e.bay if you still were keen.

All the best

Dave

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Hey Ronin,

 

The weekend's over! Did you make any decisions.

 

I could add my two cents, ah what the heck, I will.

 

Of course the Martins are good, I have one. :D I "taught" a guy one time that had a six-string Ovation. In A/B's side by side, you could hear the difference, but subtle. I was impressed enough to buy a 12-string, and I think they come with pretty good electronics.

 

Dave

Gotta' geetar... got the amp. There must be SOMEthing else I... "need".
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Thanks for the info Dave.

 

To all about Taylor guitars;

 

It seems to me that theres a backlash going on against Taylor right now. We see these things come and go, especially with the advent of the Internet. For some reason there are always going to be some people (kids mostly I suppose) who just get a kick out of bashing someone or some product for no good reason and then it catches on and runs its course for a while. Weve seen it with SoundBlaster, Behringer, a lot of different software products (FrontPage for instance), on and on. Maybe someone has a bad experience with a product early in its development, (the very early SoundBlasters only played in 8-bit during full duplex recording mode and had bad noise characteristics, and FrontPage 98 wrote terrible html code among other things), or didnt fully understand how to use it and the next thing you know...it suddenly becomes the product thats cool to criticize. Other times it seems that its cool to simply bash whatevers popular at the moment. I think Taylor falls into that latter category.

 

At any rate, like Caevan said, They definitely tend to have that sizzle and bottom end punch, and hes right. Ive stated that I really only care for the Concert and Auditorium models but Im mostly a fingerpicker and these models work best for that in my opinion. I think they have a deeper, laudy, dreadnaught type of tone I happen to like too. But Im sure I could pick up one of those particular models and find one I didnt like occasionally or maybe pick up one of the other models and find one that really hit the spot now and then. But one thing about Taylor guitars is that Ive never played one that wasnt incredibly responsive. If youre doing something like harmonic slaps or hammer-ons or pull-offs, you dont have to work hard at it; the notes just ring out at you effortlessly. So whether you love or hate their sound, I think its hard to argue the fact they theyre a very easy playing, responsive guitar. Theyre also one of the few guitar companies that have managed to make an acoustic with a cutaway bout that still played well and sounded goodnot an easy task.

 

This has been a very fun thread for me by the way. This is about the only music forum Ive ever come across that didnt seem like a total waste of time. Im not a big Internet forum person (although I used to develop websites until the .com tragedy) but its been a blast tuning in to this particular thread every day. I LOVE acoustic guitars! I got to get out of here for a long while though. Maybe Ill see some of you at Winfield come September.

 

Three sheets to the wind matesgotta blow,

 

Charlie

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Hey Nathar,

 

Of course it's a fun thread. You asked everyone to give you their advice about their favorite (acoustic) guitars. You were lucky this thread didn't go to four or five pages! :D

 

BTW, I tried a Taylor too. Not A/B side by side with my Martin and Ovation, but I've had the Martin for thirty years so I know what it sounds like. The Taylor was a little brighter with a "punchier", but not as "deep" bass. The action was definetly better than the Martin.

 

But in the end, it's what YOU like! Any guitar mentioned here is a good choice and likely to go up in value (except maybe the Ovation because the fiberglass body).

 

I suprised no one has said this, ".. buy the one that sings to you .." or talks to you, or the one you can't put down etc. You'll know the one, the one that you truly like deep in your gut / heart / soul.

 

Good luck, Dave

Gotta' geetar... got the amp. There must be SOMEthing else I... "need".
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Hi all,

Once again, thx fr all the great ideas. Just this weekend past, I got a call to play up in Detroit and ended up staying for about 4 days. Whilst I was there, a good friend of mine had a really nice late 90's "Natural Series" cutaway Takamine for sale @ a good price - which sounded great straight acoustic and through a P.A, so I ended up taking that home with me. I now plan on ordering and installing the Takamine DSP preamp, so as soon as I get the time, I'll throw some tracks into my laptop, and post a link for you all to hear it - for those of you that are interested.

 

Again, many thx. It's nice to know that we can have an open forum here that actually works.

 

Rs,

Ronin

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