Ever learned a song and lost some of the "magic" of your guitar hero?

[James-Italy]

I'm just beginning to learn, but I feel I'm improving quickly. I'm not ready to tackle EVH or anything, but I'm moving along at a pace that kills... well, at least at my pace

 

I've always loved the Bad Company sound (all periods!) and think Mick Ralphs is pretty cool. Tonight I sat down with the CD of Bad Company's Dangerous Age and learned the chords, riffs, and some of the lead in about half an hour. My bands have covered the song, but I never played guitar on it. I expected it to be really hard. But, it turns out to be so easy that I'm ashamed I didn't pick it up before. I still really like the song and think Mick is a great guitarist and he's obviously written some great songs. But....

 

He just lost a little of his pedastal status in my eyes I guess.... a little depressing actually.

 

Ever happen to you guys?

 

EDIT: changed the title because I mistakenly wrote "lost respect for your guitar hero" which is not at all what I meant to say. Sorry bout that- James

[mstreck]

This isn't meant to be stand-off-ish, but here it is:

 

Think of it this way... HE is the one who came up with the guitar work that you admired for YEARS, enough to try to emulate. You were able to duplicate his licks, but can you duplicate his magic and inspire others as he did you?

 

Speaking of my favorite, EVH... many people can play "Eruption", but can they come up with their OWN "virtuoso" guitar solo that will inspire millions to want to play the guitar?

 

Just something for you to consider...

 

Or am I reading your question incorrectly?

 

Mike

[James-Italy]

No Mstreck, you hit it right on the head. I don't mean to come across as if I think I'm anywhere in the same league as a guitarist of his stature. It just kind of caught me off guard that a beginner like me could duplicate some of his licks. The magic of his music hasn't diminished. Ok, maybe a little of it wore off.

 

But as all of you learned to play, didn't some of the magic wear off?

 

As if I've always been awed by a magical trick and one day discover how it's done. The trick is still impressive, but the mystery is gone. That's what I meant to express. I'm sure others have had similiar experiences.

 

BTW- others play "Eruption" but I've never seen anyone capture the magic of EVH.

 

There are lots of guitarists I admire and one day hope to emulate, within my style that is. I'm working hard to learn this "solo" guitar stuff so I can express myself better in my originals. My only aspiration is to make music that pleases me. If on the off chance someone like it that's cool also.

 

These guitar heroes, like you said, have inspired millions to want to play guitar. I would never presume to anything like that.

[James-Italy]

Ooops, forgot to mention the song title- "One Night"

[michael saulnier]

This is a fairly common occurance. Part of the "magic" of music is the wonderment at what's involved in playing it...

 

So when you learn something one of your heroes wrote and played, it's a little "bubble popping"...

 

That being said, I think there's another side... when you and the band are playing a long time favorite song... and it's "coming out of you"... with the similar energy and vibe as your hero!

 

It's cool how your own "version" of the song can still bring about the same emotions that listening to the original artist did... that's CAPTURING the magic, imho... and partly why music is so much fun to play.

 

Almost every musician I know has had heroes in their life that they have attempted to emulate in one way or another. Some are nearly unattainable... can you say Al DiMeola? While some are easier to emulate... My opinion. If you CAN play it and you like it... PLAY IT.

 

guitplayer

[Jeff Leites]

I've picked up a few of my hero's riffs, but he's still light years ahead of anything I could ever do.

[TeleCarlos]

My .02 cents...

 

I think it happens to all of us...

 

Used to love a song, it took me places didnt know existed, enlightened me, amazed the shit out me, made want to pick up the instrument and learn it.

 

Once I learned my "heroes" where just plain some simple ass changes, the bubble did burst a little bit.

 

But what exactly did I love? It wasn't the complex changes or the blazing speed, it was the attitude and the feel they conveyed.

 

Satch vs. N. Young

No contest, both cool as shit.

 

What gives me tingles now? Songwriting. Feel. Moods. Vibes... err something like that.

 

Love Vai.....love Depeche mode....love Radiohead....love XTC.....love Duran Duran.... love the Vines....

Lennon and Marley, made a believer, music cures the world....

 

Note to self........

Double the dose of medication. Blabbing too much.

[fantasticsound]

I've never experienced that feeling, as I learned to play some of my favorite songs and licks from my musical idols.

 

IMO, there's no difference in learing to play guitar parts and writing lyrics that rival, "Yesterday". The actual words that make up, "Yesterday", are incredibly simple, yet they comprise one of my favorite lyrics of all time. As mstreck alluded to, knowing the lyric construction is simple doesn't take away the appreciation that Paul McCartney wrote those words in that order, and mated them to a simple, beautiful piece of music. I can play, "Yesterday" for the rest of my life and I won't ever lose my awe for Paul McCartney's writing. And I can play Michael Hedges' or James Taylor's songs note for note and it doesn't make me lose my love of the beauty of those songs, or my immense appreciation of those composers' talents.

[James-Italy]

Guit/TeleCarlos-

nice to know you guys have had similiar moments. I should probably turn it around and look at it in a positive light- I can actually play something by one of my heroes. That should lift my spirits, not be a downer!

 

BTW as I listened to Bad Company's "One Night" this morning coming to work I realised I was pretty silly last night . That song is really cool and so what if I can play some of it on guitar. Man, if one day I could write a song like that!!!

 

Guit-

I totally agree it will be up to me (or us as musicians) to try to "make the magic" someday, that's what we all hope for I think.

 

TeleCarlos-

Like you, I love music that give me that "tingly" feeling, no matter who plays it is or whatever style it is. Aren't we always searching for more of that feeling? It's the drug that keeps us coming back.

 

Neil-

The awe for Mick Ralphs as a songwriter is still there! I was really thinking and meant to comment on the guitar playing, not the song construction. The magic of the song is intact. I love that song! It's the guitar magic that has diminished as I learned some of the trick. That's really never happened to you?

 

When you listen to "Yesterday", what do you hear? Is it McCartney singing? Or the piano? Or do you hear the song as a whole which creates a mood for you? The old Forest vs Trees. "Yesterday" is a Forest song (mood, feeling) IMHO, it's not an impresario piece showcasing a guitarist or pianist. But it is a super song!! I was commenting on the Tree part- where a guitarist awes you with his playing and you discover it's not that difficult. But just because I can find his trees doesn't mean I can create his forest! Make any sense?

[hariseldon]

My guess is that when we try to play a line or a song by one of our heroes, we switch from the listener's point of view to the performer's point of view.

Once you break down the music to notes and analyze it in terms of what notes to play when and with what technique, I believe the magic is lost for us. Simply because you're not a listener anymore and because you're so much more aware of how the phrases are created. At least that has happened to me with a lot of melodies.

On the other hand, by playing them, I think we embed part of that magic into ourselves. Some of it will come up while jamming. Nothing even near SRV in my case though.

[Tedster]

I think perhaps our own heroes went through that when they were copying their heroes. And so on and so forth.

 

Don't think of it as magic...think of it as a craft, handed down from generation to generation.

[Spiderbluz]

Actually, I have had the opposite happen. I decided to add a few John Lee Hooker songs along with some Howlin Wolf to my set list, and was quite amazed after learning the songs at just how much raw emotion is contained in the songs. Add to that the many different ways you can change the songs' arrangement to emphasize any of the many "blues styles" and my God it is impressive. And I most certainly have found that this is not the rule for alot of blues music.

[The Thrashole]

I'm a little different. When I learn a song i start with the notes themselves. Once i know them then a completely new layer appears. How every note is picked or bent or any of those little weird noises that pop up. Sometimes it's simple but the way the guitar locks into the other instruments (or doesn't lock)everything can affect the feel of a song. I hear something new each time i listen for it on any song that I know like the back of my hand.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by James-Italy:

...Neil-

The awe for Mick Ralphs as a songwriter is still there! I was really thinking and meant to comment on the guitar playing, not the song construction. The magic of the song is intact. I love that song! It's the guitar magic that has diminished as I learned some of the trick. That's really never happened to you?

 

When you listen to "Yesterday", what do you hear? Is it McCartney singing? Or the piano? Or do you hear the song as a whole which creates a mood for you? The old Forest vs Trees. "Yesterday" is a Forest song (mood, feeling) IMHO, it's not an impresario piece showcasing a guitarist or pianist. But it is a super song!! I was commenting on the Tree part- where a guitarist awes you with his playing and you discover it's not that difficult. But just because I can find his trees doesn't mean I can create his forest! Make any sense?

Nope, never happened to me. In fact, I feel much like Spiderbluz. I'm energized about guitar parts when I learn them, easy or difficult.

 

As for Yesterday, or for that matter all songs I listen to, I hear them from both perspectives (forest/trees) at different times.

 

I've heard the same arguement regarding the analysis of films, poetry or prose. And I'm very analytical, yet I never lose the excitement about a piece of art from nitpicking it's component parts. Never even occured to me until someone else mentioned it.

 

Michael Hedges' cover of "All Along The Watchtower" is a tour de force on acoustic guitar. Yet playing it is almost a joke. Michael retuned to DAEEAA and most of the chords are partial barres of one fret, with a few open strings. It's all about the vibe. Yet with all the complex fingerpicking I perform, that version of "Watchtower" is consistantly the song people gel most with, and playing the guitar part is exciting to me, as well.

 

I can't change anyone's mind how they feel in this regard. But I don't feel a loss in excitement from the study and mastering of a guitar part from a song I love.

[UnNotable]

I think in many of the arts, not just music, we sacrafice that innocense and awe as we become more skilled. However, we also gain a greater appreciation for economy and simplicity -- complexity is not always the measure of things.

 

As your playing changes, so will your preferences. Fortunately, there are always more heroes to discover.

 

How can you use what you've learned in new ways? Joe Cocker and Richie Havens, for example, took Beatles songs to a new and eually valid interpretation. Can you use the licks with a Bo Diddly beat or some other twist to make them your own? Take a familiar blues lick and add a capo and you get 'That'll be the Day'.

 

We stand on the shoulders of giants?

 

Regards,

Douglas Miller

[Gruupi]

I think that Mick Ralphs was more about tone, feel, and taste than about technical virtuosity. I would think most people would be able to play the note he plays but to get the sound just right would be much harder. Kind of like David Gilmour, There are no real fast passages or many things outside of pentatonic, but its all about hte exact right tone and timing.

Early on in my playing I would feel some letdown in learning a song. But if you really dig deep you may respect the guys that sound simple on the surface more than the flashy guys.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Many times, "simple" is wonderful. Often it takes a very clever person to come up with something that is simple and yet seems so perfect that it could not have been done any other way. Think of some of your all time favorite songs, the ones that you find inspiring and "goosepimpley", regardless of style or high- or low- "virtuosity" being part of it, and ponder how they could have been changed, added to or taken away from, for the better... could they?

 

I'm a sucker for the Zep tune, Kashmir. Once you have the correct tuning and fingerings, it's very simple to play on guitar. Yet I can sit their with an acoustic and play it by myself and just love it! Another piece by Jimmy Page, the instrumental Bron Yr Aur, is the same way, almost as easy and all, and so delicous!

It's actually a pleasure to me to find that someone has discovered a simple yet perfect way to play a given lick, riff, fill, etc.

 

Actually, "simple" is misleading here, many "simple" guitar parts have a lot more than the fingering going on to sound right, to have the "feel" that they do; a lot of focus on the details of timing, intonation, "vibe", picking-hand attack and fretting-hand fluidity and pressure...

 

Now, when I was a kid, I thought all of that barage of guitar sound on rock records was coming from whoever the guitar players in a given band were, live and recorded all together. That meant that Jimmy Page must have been a friggin' brainiac from Mars, right?!? When I discovered that their was a lot of overdubbing and and such going on in the studios where records were made, I lost that primitive naivety but began to hear the separate parts more distinctly. It began to change the way music sounded and felt to me somewhat; a little innocense lost, perhaps? A growing-pain!

[NMcGuitar]

There's some truth to the "loss of innocence" line that several here have commented on. Learning more, by it's very nature, means some of that "mystery" is removed for you. But I find that just makes me appreciate the "magic" all the more -- It's like you slowly stop being young Arthur, and start becoming Merlin. You become "the method behind the magic".

 

All that said, I have occasionally learned something that was much easier than I expected, but that always makes me very happy. I feel like I'm somehow in synch with my hero (a BIG positive ), not that he/she has slipped.

 

Oh well... just my $0.02

[James-Italy]

Cool comments guys.

 

This is really a great forum!!!

[timrocker]

James, that's insightful. And, yeah, Mick Ralphs is sure worth a listen, isn't he?

 

The only time I ever felt let down by a group I looked up to was when I realized just how absurdly much overdubbing went into the Boston albums. When I was 16, their sound seemed like The Future. And then, when I learned to hear distinct parts, I realized that it's really a phenomona of technology and the studio. I still enjoy it, but some of the wonder went away when I realized no "band" could ever sound that way. On most of their hits, there are more voices (all the same guy) than band members. Yikes.

[Djinn1973]

I did this with allot of Hendrix tunes when I was a kid. There is for me, a kind of loss that comes from picking a song apart to the degree that you must, when learning how to play it. The analogy that I have always used is, seeing initially amazing David Copperfield performance but having him explain every thing as he is doing it.

[coyote]

I appreciate the 'magic' even more as I learn to perform it. And I very much have to be a listener as I'm performing.... how the heck can you sound good if you ain't listening to the performance? The 'magic' of performing with a band comes from each player knowing his instrument and parts well enough that he may forget about them, and lose himself in listening to the performance even as it comes from his fingers.

[DC]

The only magic I've lost is when your band works up a tune and you end up playing it about a zillion times. That makes me want to turn off the radio when the tune comes on.

 

As far as the original magic or losing respect idea, let's face it; even if you learn something lick for lick and can capture the same 'feel' and everything, someone else still wrote that solo!

[NMcGuitar]

Originally posted by DC:

The only magic I've lost is when your band works up a tune and you end up playing it about a zillion times. That makes me want to turn off the radio when the tune comes on.

Yeah, it can be difficult to keep things fresh.

 

I've found that when I'm playing with people I really connect with, the magic will resurface a lot more often; all it takes is for one person to do something a little differently, then the next person picks up on it (etc.). I will sometimes try throwing something completely different into a song (a couple of "jazz" chords, or quote the melody of a different song, etc...)

[revolead]

I think learning songs ake you appreciate guitar work more. I used to only be a small fan of Dream Theater and had one CD. I was interested in a good book for metal playing, and my guit teacher told me about Wild Stringdom. I got it, and started to realize how complex the mind of John Petrucci actually is, and that he's one of the best guitarists AND musicians out there.

I went through the same thing with Kirk Hammett and James Hetfield from Metallica, Jerry Horton from Papa Roach (I was just starting to learn at the time, although I still respect his style greatly), and Slash from Guns N Roses.