Ground Loop Hum at the Grammys

[Dennis_dup2]

What was up with that?? They kept having hum problems that were louder than Robin Williams...now that is a feat in and of its self! It plagued several artist. I kept yellling at the TV set, in total dismay. Was there not a sound check?? Was there not a technician there?? Jeesh! How amature, expecially for NYC. This comes from a dude (me) that volunteers time and services at memphis' Premier Players Awards, so i have some experience in this area. That was a joke to the techinical community of Madison Sq. Gdns. or who ever was responsible. Tisk Tisk DCMIX

[Dave Pierce]

I was stunned. In all of Manhattan they couldn't find one decent sound tech? Sheesh. --Dave

[dr.sound]

Dennis and Dave, While I don't like to listen to ground hum either, to say : [quote] [/quote]Was there not a sound check?? Was there not a technician there?? Jeesh! How amature, expecially for NYC. This comes from a dude (me) that volunteers time and services at memphis' Premier Players Awards, so i have some experience in this area. That was a joke to the techinical community of Madison Sq. Gdns. or who ever was responsible. Tisk Tisk [quote] [/quote]and [quote] [/quote]In all of Manhattan they couldn't find one decent sound tech? Sheesh. [quote] [/quote]Go to this link: http://www.prosoundnews.com/stories/2003/february/0224.2.shtml If you’re not familiar with any of those names, let me mention Ed Greene. He is the BEST in the business. Having worked 6 years with him and being in the Audio Truck at the Grammy's as it all goes down LIVE, its nuts. Now we all would like to have zero technical problems, but that not life! He had the best crew that New York has, and they aren't any slackers! Ed has over 15 Emmy's himself, yet he is the most humble guy in the business and many of us including myself have him to thank for his insight and his technical abilities. He is "the Best"!!!

[Gus Lozada]

[quote]Originally posted by dr.sound: [b]...Ed has over 15 Emmy's himself, yet he is the most humble guy in the business and many of us including myself have him to thank for his insight and his technical abilities. He is "the Best"!!![/b][/quote]... he just had a bad night with some Ground Loop Humm... ;) Thanks for the info, Dr. Sound.

[Dave Pierce]

Hmmm. Well, I don't mean to knock anyone personally here. However, this is a major venue and it's reasonable to expect decent sound. In my line of work (technology operations) we are expected to be error-free 100% of the time. We often fall short of that expectation, and I know how much of a pressure-cooker that can be. Since I'm not perfect myself I don't want to be too harsh on others' mistakes. However, I also expect to be ripped to shreds when my team makes a mistake. Comes with the territory. You grow a thick skin, or you change careers. I suspect that live sound reinforcement is a similar business. --Dave

[Gtoledo3]

I can't think of ONE Grammy awards that hasn't been marred by some kind of sound reinforcement mistake. On that note, it's amazing to me how few mistakes I hear during sporting events.

[george costanza]

[quote]Originally posted by dr.sound:[b] Was there not a sound check?? [/b][/quote]If you recall, it occured at the time they gave RW a hand mic because he was not behind the podium (although he didn't seem to actually need it). That probably wasn't part of the rehearsal. It did seem to take a while to pull down.

[Matt.Hepworth]

I saw just that one part and thought it was likely just crap TV reception. Lousy situation to be the soundman that night, eh? ;)

[Botch.]

Because of all the bitching everyone has done about this, all musical and spoken-word performances will be, in the future, prerecorded and lip-synced... :rolleyes:

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by dr.sound: [b]If you're not familiar with any of those names, let me mention Ed Greene. He is the BEST in the business.[/b][/quote]Apparently the best in the business had an off night. This doesn't explain why there are several music awards shows each year and the Grammy's are [i]consistantly[/i] the worst regarding technical sound issues. The CMA's never seem to be plagued with these problems, yet they have a similar number of live performances. I was in the control room at the 1995 CMA's. The week leading up to the show they went 24/7, literally, to install a Neve Capricorn into Studio B at TNN for the show. Despite the bad reputation the Capricorn has had for glitches, it performed wonderfully, and the mixers did as well. (At least for the portion I was present for, but I heard of no gaffs.) Given his accolades, I'm sure Mr. Greene is a fine mixer. But don't make excuses for the Laughing Stock of Live Performance Telecast. The Grammy's are the returning winner, year after year, in that category. Such a shame for the official voice of the recording industry. The performances I saw were very good, but how difficult is it to mix an acoustic guitar and two voices, or an acoustic guitar, a cello, and a voice? The only band I watched was No Doubt, and whether it was the band or the mix, it sounded [i]weak[/i]. There's no denying Gwen Stefani was buried in the mix. When I was in college, my live sound teacher had class at his home once a semester. He wanted to illustrate the idea that live sound engineers should have the highest quality home sound systems for listening to recorded examples of prospective clients for research. We spent over an hour and a half listening to music and surround sound movies. After the listening demo, he said we could listen to more examples or turn on the TV. Lo and behold, there was the 1990 Grammy Award show. He immediately snickered out loud. Someone asked why. He said, "Just listen." The beginning of the show featured... all channels turned off except for the audience mics. We could hear the opening performance only as bleed into those mics. Later, Miles Davis was performing (he was given the Lifetime Achievement award that night) and he looked especially pissed off. (Miles was a pretty scary looking man, but this was far beyond normal..) My teacher explained that the monitor engineer was toast after the performance. Miles was leaning into the wedge monitor so far his head almost touched it, and that terrible gaze was piercing in one direction, offstage. These are just two of the many mistakes we witnessed that night. I did not hear the offending hum last night as I only zapped in every once in a while to catch some musical performances. From what I've read on several threads here, there is no excuse why they did not immediately hand Robin Williams another wireless mic on a different channel. The only reason to give Mr. Greene and the rest of the mixing staff the benefit of the doubt is if the hum was from something other than that particular mic and channel on the console. Has anything been said in the media regarding that? I'm certainly glad you learned a lot from Mr. Greene. I'd be thrilled to work with someone with those credentials, and I'm sure I'd learn a lot. But lets not sugar-coat last night's gaffs out of respect for his previous work. Think of it this way. Tampa Bay has a Superbowl championship. If they play like garbage next year, people won't say, "Last year they were the best!" The Grammy's [i]should[/i] be the Superbowl of the music biz. I expect the "players" to put on the best show, technically, at least, possible. That's simply not the case with the Grammys.

[dr.sound]

Neil, A "just by the way", the music was mixed in another truck by John Harris and Jay Vicari.

[fantasticsound]

I see. Not surprised the chores were divided up. Now THAT'S a smart idea. ;)

[Eric Worthington]

Just to clarify: Actually, Robin had a clip-on mic on his chest. When he first started talking, there was a hum, so a tech quickly handed him a hand-held wireless mic. The hum didn't go away; in fact, it got louder. At that point, I figured there was an open channel causing the hum (just a guess). You could hear his mic, but the hum was real loud. Eventually, they must have found it, because the hum disappeared.

[where02190]

[quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b][QUOTE]Later, Miles Davis was performing (he was given the Lifetime Achievement award that night) and he looked especially pissed off. (Miles was a pretty scary looking man, but this was far beyond normal..) My teacher explained that the monitor engineer was toast after the performance. Miles was leaning into the wedge monitor so far his head almost touched it, and that terrible gaze was piercing in one direction, offstage.[/b][/quote]Having done monitors for Miles for several years 82-87, so not this particular performance) I can assure you that was the usual look for him, and his trumpet was never in wedges, only sidefills, as this was his preference. The monitor engineer was not "toast" after that show and continued on for some time. Robin was definitely wearing an RF lav mic, which was not the source of the hum. An open noisy line was the culpirt. When you're running well in excess of 100 inputs, it can take a few second sto fine the culpirt. Sh*t happens.

[Rog]

Ok, it's hardly the Grammy's but the Mobius awards sound people fucked up big time. We were in the lobby of Sony pictures - a huge 4 or 5 floor wedge-shaped room made entirely of glass and marble and the PA consisted of only two speakers at either side of the audience. If you weren't seated directly in their line of fire you were treated to a really amazing and very long reverb but not much else :mad: It's a pisser to hear your work ruined by the lack of decent coverage, I'd love to set up a kit in that room though ;)

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by where02190: [b] Having done monitors for Miles for several years 82-87, so not this particular performance) I can assure you that was the usual look for him, and his trumpet was never in wedges, only sidefills, as this was his preference. The monitor engineer was not "toast" after that show and continued on for some time.[/b][/quote]With all due respect, this hardly explains why Miles was bent over into the monitor, as if to say , "I'm not hearing what I want to hear." I never said he wanted more trumpet, only that he appeared to be having trouble with his monitors. I also never insinuated the monitor engineer was fired, only that I'd expect Miles expressed his displeasure after the performance. While this is all supposition, I've seen many instances similar to this, where a performer who cannot motion with their hands will lean into the monitor. It is no exaggeration to say Miles was bent over for quite some time. Hardly what I'd call a happy performer. As for the face, I'll have to differ that one to you. [b] [quote]Robin was definitely wearing an RF lav mic, which was not the source of the hum. An open noisy line was the culpirt. When you're running well in excess of 100 inputs, it can take a few second sto fine the culpirt. Sh*t happens. [/b][/quote]If that was the case and I were behind the board, the buzz would have been gone before the tech arrived with the handheld wireless. It takes only a few seconds for a single person to scan 100 channels for a constant, unmoving signal on the meters. My understanding is this went on for quite a while. 30 seconds would have been far too long for me to miss it. At this level, for the problem you described, 15 seconds is an eternity. Yes, sh&t happens. Unfortunately at the Grammy's, it happens, year after year, more often than it should. This is the "crown jewel" of music award shows, right? NARAS represents the [i]recording industry[/i] for cryin' out loud. It can and should be near flawless, after as many years as they've been at it. Just my opinion, but I can tell you from years of experience, I'm far from alone.

[where02190]

Regarding Miles, his natural stance playing is bent over, and if he was near a wedge, it would appear he was trying to listen. however this was his style. regarding Robin Williams, while I agree it went on for much longer than it should, no one is perfect. Anyone know who did the live MSG FOH mix?

[videoeditor1]

[quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b]...It takes only a few seconds for a single person to scan 100 channels for a constant, unmoving signal on the meters. My understanding is this went on for quite a while. 30 seconds would have been far too long for me to miss it. At this level, for the problem you described, 15 seconds is an eternity...[/b][/quote]To add, those 100+ inputs are not all microphones. What, you can't use mute groups at the grammies?

[bdbklyn]

I've done scores of live broadcasts and hundreds of remote recordings. I also went out on remotes with the Record Plant trucks in L.A. to assist the band's engineers when they wanted their own mixer at the board. I would always advise them to keep it a simple as practical "because when things go bad out here, it happens very,very quickly and goes very,verybad". The Grammy show is a logistical nightmare with 15 to 20 live performances and sometimes 3 sound trucks. The CMA's and the AMA's, unless they've changed recently are live vocal with canned music. I for one, think that the breathtaking musical moments of this show, (James Taylor and Yo Yo Ma) certainly overcame the hum during Robin Williams introductions. Was anyone at the show? Was there hum in the house during that time? Bill Dooley

[Dennis_dup2]

I will be working the Premier Players awards again this year and i assure you there will be sound checks with all the mics the DAY before the event happens with resumes much less stellar that Mr Green. Last year Mr Sam Phillips (you know the guy that discoverd elvis) himself complemented on how killer the sound was. It was a live show that was 1. Recorded 2. Live Feed and lastly fed Live to Radio Stations through out the South East. Mistakes do happen, the trick is to isolate them and fix them. The problem with this years grammys is the Problems happened over and over and over and over. So while Mr Green may have a killer resume, the product spoke for its self. My non technical wife kept asking me what the hell was going on. The Grammys are not some second rate awards show, hell they represent music, they should be LEADING THE WAY! What happened "Soundwize" was truly unacceptable. DCMIX

[Imperial]

Obviously, nobody here is giving the engineer any credit. The broadcast mixer was working on a Neve Capricorn. This is the biggest pain in the rear! You cannot add/delet channels, patches, etc while on-line, because when it resets, it mutes while it updates for about 3 seconds. I am not saying that this is THE solution. I am saying that we do not know how things were routed, submixed, etc. It may not have been possible to fix the problem, until all of the sources in that group were inactive, or until a break, so they could mute the console.

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by bdbklyn: [b]....The Grammy show is a logistical nightmare with 15 to 20 live performances and sometimes 3 sound trucks. The CMA's..., unless they've changed recently are live vocal with canned music... Bill Dooley[/b][/quote]Guess again. The 1995 CMA Awards show that I witnessed from the control room, was [i]live musicians for all performances[/i] save for the Horizon award nominees who sang bits of their songs to canned music as the show broke away to commercial. They also used a 360 systems sampler to cue voice over announcements going to commercial. The many performances were all live. And, while I watched only a bit of the show last year, I did see Alan Jackson premiere Where Were You When The World Stopped Turning and it was definitely live. An aquaintance of mine was playing mandolin. Besides, that was the first performance of the song, other than rehearsal. Frankly, I was unimpressed by the live broadcast mix of that song, but compare a video tape of the show with the remixed recording that was presented to radio stations the next day and you can definitely hear the difference. I don't know who told you the music was canned, but they are incorrect. Hell, the old Music City News Awards were live, with at least as many performances as the Grammys. I watched and listened to the 1995 mix from the Opry House's broadcast booth at the back of the theater. They had augmented the older Neve console with a, then brand new model, Yamaha ProMix 01, borrowed from Alan Jackson's touring rig, to have enough channels to accomodate Vince Gill's dual drum sets. Handybrent, personally, I don't care what gear they were using. If you can't mute a single channel on a console at a moment's notice, it's too much of a liability to use. I've heard that Capricorn's are glitchy and somewhat difficult to use, but that's no excuse. Spec another board then. As Dennis said, they should be leading the way. Not looking for damage control year after year.

[Jaimo]

[quote] A "just by the way", the music was mixed in another truck by John Harris and Jay Vicari. [/quote]Aside from the obvious technical issues that plaqued the evening, I was extremely surprised at the mixes for the live performances. You could barely here Gwen with No Doubt, and Faith Hill's Electric guitarist overshadowed her quite a bit (although he had a killer tone!). Both performances with Springsteen were a total wash. I guess I'm saying that it sounded like these guys never mixed for television before. It was far below the standard the Grammys themselves represent.

[Imperial]

Fantastic...I agree. Scrap the Capricorns in those scenerios. I had to live with a 85% wet/15%dry vocal mix for Junior Brown on the CBS Morning Show, because we were on-line, and could not break. It sucked. I caught hell for it. IMO, If you are paying 6-figures for a console, then it ought to do what an 02R or a Mackie Digital 8 can do...atleast functionally.

[BP3]

[quote]Originally posted by GT3: [b]I can't think of ONE Grammy awards that hasn't been marred by some kind of sound reinforcement mistake. On that note, it's amazing to me how few mistakes I hear during sporting events.[/b][/quote]In sports TV, the TV audio crew has a great deal of control. In an awards show you have the live sound contractor and their crew, the artists and their crew, and the TV production and their crew (sometimes TV has a music truck and a seperate audio crew on the video truck). The scale of such productions demand that all involved work as one, and that multiple contingencies are discussed in pre-production meetings. If these contingencies aren't made or aren't carried out, you have the result that aired on Monday. It could be that the power used for instruments during sound check wasn't used as a musical act was setup during the live show. It could be many other things. As far as Ed Greene goes, he [b]is[/b] the go to guy for these shows. He counts on those inside the venue to do their jobs correctly. He was let down, big time.

[Gtoledo3]

Good points, tinder :)

[dr.sound]

To add fuel to the fire: Look, I should have never mentioned who mixed the show. When you have a room full of Monday Morning Quarterbacks, then one can expect many different opinions. I would like to thank Bill Dooley and TinderArts for their perspective.On a side note about "Mr. Greene", he also did the Salt Lake Olympics Openining on a Mackie, and it sounded flawless. As for the Capricorn, "Mr. Greene" had it FAIL Live during the Macy Day Parade a few years ago. There were a few minutes of silence because of that console. Since then it has had a software fix so it won't go dead on the air. In my opinion he still is the guy! Now flame away.

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by handybrent@hotmail.com: [b]Fantastic...I agree. Scrap the Capricorns in those scenerios. I had to live with a 85% wet/15%dry vocal mix for Junior Brown on the CBS Morning Show, because we were on-line, and could not break. It sucked. I caught hell for it. IMO, If you are paying 6-figures for a console, then it ought to do what an 02R or a Mackie Digital 8 can do...atleast functionally.[/b][/quote]And I thought I had it bad dealing with substandard live rigs at country fairs! ;) At least I didn't have a TV audience listening in. :D Just for the record, Dr. Sound, I don't have any problem with Mr. Greene, per se. As stated earlier, I'd be [i]thrilled[/i] to work with him, large event or not. My disgust is with the [i]consistancy[/i] of technical problems, year after year, with the sound industry's premiere event. If the Capricorn is indeed that problematic (and you're the latest in a long line of pros I've conversed with who has a Capricorn horror story) then it shouldn't come anywhere near an event of this type, 6-figure cost or not. I'm not afraid of digital boards, but get one that works or throw 4 or 5 engineers behind an analog, non-automated board to cover 100 channels. (And please don't take this as a broad swipe of Neve. The Opry was happy for years with what now would be considered an ancient Neve with automation. (I'm not certain what they mix on now. Probably another Capricorn. ) They have to mix approx. 20 acts for radio twice a week, 3 or 4 for TV on Sat. (also part of the radio broadcast) each and every week.

[Jaimo]

[quote] To add fuel to the fire: Look, I should have never mentioned who mixed the show. When you have a room full of Monday Morning Quarterbacks, then one can expect many different opinions. [/quote]Don't get me wrong, I have the upmost respect for these guys. I could NEVER do what they do - WAY too much pressure! I was merely offering one of those many different opinions, and like I always say...everybody has the right to my opinion! ;)

[ernest828]

Saying that there should be no mistakes is ignorant. No matter how well prepared these professionals are, there is always something that goes wrong. The hum- I did not hear. What I thought was worse was the fact that Garfunkel was going flat on some of his notes. Nothing worse excpet bad rhythm. Ernest LONG LIVE HUM!!!