A single GREAT tone, or guitar/amp modeling?

[Stan_Frenchie]

Hi dot-dot-dot,

 

So in simple terms, no. It won't work how you said, but it does have flexibility. Buy 2 and you can do what you said... but that might not be an option.

The fact is I am considering buying 6

 

Many thanks for your answer(s), I am beginning to save money to buy it soon (maybe for Xmas).

 

Bests.

 

Stan.

[TomD]

I sold my hot rod deluxe and bought a DG-stomp. I loved the tone of the fender but lugging the thing around was getting to be a pain. Maybe I should have got the blues junior instead... it was just that the more drive setting sounded so cool. At least it calibrated my ears. So when I was shopping for a pod like thing I tried to find something with dynamics. I liked the tone of the DG-stomp and the variety of the effects as well. I guess I could have kept the fender and added effects in the loop but then it really would have been a pain to lug around. So what am I trying to say? more tones in a compact package for me...

[TieDyedDevil]

I'm learning that versatility can't be bought. It's less a matter of gear-related features and more a matter of a good, responsive guitar and amp combined with technique that takes advantage of that responsiveness.

 

My journey over the last few years has led me toward increasing simplicity.

 

I've been through the modeling thing - sold my Line 6... later, turned my nose up at the Vetta during a factory demo.

 

I've sold nearly every effect I bought, keeping only an analog delay, a rotating speaker, a volume pedal and a wah pedal. These don't get much use, but I keep them around for an occasional bit of color.

 

Tube amps: cool, yes. But I thought I really had to have channel switching, master volume amps. Seduced by "versatility", once again...

 

Then I bought a single-channel, non-master volume amp. This has a degree of touch-sensitivity that I have never been able to get from my channel switching amps, no matter how much I tweaked. (I always thought that channel switching was necessary to get a range of distortion ranging from clean to a lead sound.)

 

Now I've discovered that my Mesa/Boogie Blue Angel can give me that full range of tones with variations in pick attack and guitar volume. Yes, I've discovered that I don't need channel switching. (But a Hotplate is essential.)

 

The BA has been described by others as being close to a Fender BF design, but it has small differences in the tone stack, an extra gain stage, and a different output stage.

[tenton]

Interesting TieDye... I've recently been playing around with a 4x10 Blue angel (With Hot Plate) and it's great! I really am beginning to enjoy it. The responsiveness of the amp is terrific, and I love the sound of the combined EL84's and 6V6's.

 

OTOH, I also have a Mesa Mark IV - with 3000+ knobs, channels and options. I have a love hate thing going with it, but tonight tried it with EL34's and 6L6's with a hot plate and I really was back in love.

 

I have not played around with the tone modeling gadgets much, but what I've heard from them I was not impressed. They are close, but when you are finicky, they don't cut it. I think with a bit of work and the right setup you can have a lot of flexibility and great tone.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by TieDyedDevil:

I'm learning that versatility can't be bought. It's less a matter of gear-related features and more a matter of a good, responsive guitar and amp combined with technique that takes advantage of that responsiveness.

Amen!

[Franknputer]

Originally posted by TieDyedDevil:

I'm learning that versatility can't be bought. It's less a matter of gear-related features and more a matter of a good, responsive guitar and amp combined with technique that takes advantage of that responsiveness.

 

Yeah, but... my thinking is that this is exactly what makes the simulations work for some people. They aren't necessarily non-responsive, just different. Now, they still haven't replicated fully a good tube amp - but the sounds are quite good, and depending on how you use them they work fine. What's more important, IMO, is how YOU play, and what works for you.

 

Most anyone will say that a Marshall is a great rock guitar amp, & I agree that the sound really rocks; I love to her them. But for me, I cannot play the things - they just don't do it for me. I prefer Boogies & Fenders usually. I have, however, played some really rocking stuff on several different setups (This is what I have been told by others, so pardon my lack of humility for a moment ), for instance a SansAmy thru a Fender M80 (cheap POS solid state head they made briefly - OD sounded like a gnat fart, but the clean sound was nice & round, & that's what I used it for.) and a 4x12 absolutely screamed, and was quite responsive in its own right.

 

The J-Station is a different beast; sure, it's tone-in-a-box, but its easy to move around, and I can get it to scream at any level - for that matter, I can warm up while the speaker at the Baha'i Center is giving their talk. And I have taken the time to try to program the sounds myself, which helps a lot.

 

Bottom line - it comes down to the player, more than anything.

[TieDyedDevil]

Originally posted by tenton:

Interesting TieDye... I've recently been playing around with a 4x10 Blue angel (With Hot Plate) and it's great! I really am beginning to enjoy it. The responsiveness of the amp is terrific, and I love the sound of the combined EL84's and 6V6's.

 

OTOH, I also have a Mesa Mark IV - with 3000+ knobs, channels and options. I have a love hate thing going with it, but tonight tried it with EL34's and 6L6's with a hot plate and I really was back in love.

 

I have not played around with the tone modeling gadgets much, but what I've heard from them I was not impressed. They are close, but when you are finicky, they don't cut it. I think with a bit of work and the right setup you can have a lot of flexibility and great tone.

Yah, I know what you mean about the Mark IV. I go through the same thing with mine. I've never had much luck with the Hotplate and the Mark IV, except when running 6V6s. Since I've started playing the Blue Angel, the Mark IV frustrates me because... well, because I can't get it to "feel" the same way. I really have to use channel switching to get the same range of tones that I can get from the Blue Angel just using pick attack and the guitar's volume control.

 

At the moment, I've rolled the IV into the corner. I still use my Maverick when I need to change between rhythm and highly saturated lead tones. (The Maverick does respond well to the Hotplate. Maybe it has something to do with the cathode-biased EL-84s.)

 

So, you're from Portland too? What part? I'm in SE.

[TieDyedDevil]

Originally posted by Christopher Kemp:

Originally posted by TieDyedDevil:

I'm learning that versatility can't be bought. It's less a matter of gear-related features and more a matter of a good, responsive guitar and amp combined with technique that takes advantage of that responsiveness.

 

Yeah, but... my thinking is that this is exactly what makes the simulations work for some people. They aren't necessarily non-responsive, just different. Now, they still haven't replicated fully a good tube amp - but the sounds are quite good, and depending on how you use them they work fine. What's more important, IMO, is how YOU play, and what works for you.

 

Most anyone will say that a Marshall is a great rock guitar amp, & I agree that the sound really rocks; I love to her them. But for me, I cannot play the things - they just don't do it for me. I prefer Boogies & Fenders usually. I have, however, played some really rocking stuff on several different setups (This is what I have been told by others, so pardon my lack of humility for a moment ), for instance a SansAmy thru a Fender M80 (cheap POS solid state head they made briefly - OD sounded like a gnat fart, but the clean sound was nice & round, & that's what I used it for.) and a 4x12 absolutely screamed, and was quite responsive in its own right.

 

The J-Station is a different beast; sure, it's tone-in-a-box, but its easy to move around, and I can get it to scream at any level - for that matter, I can warm up while the speaker at the Baha'i Center is giving their talk. And I have taken the time to try to program the sounds myself, which helps a lot.

 

Bottom line - it comes down to the player, more than anything.

Good points. It is possible to get some kind of good sound out of just about any amp. A lot of that depends upon playing in the proper context. For quite a few years (in the '70s) my main amps were all solid state amps. For the style of music I played back then, they sounded fine.

 

The way I see it, modelers are really good for players who want to have a lot of different sounds available. In that sense, then, versatility can be bought.

 

On the other hand, within the realm of tube amps, I'm very impressed by my experience with the Blue Angel; it has prompted me to rethink my association between features and flexibility. I'm learning that simplicity can be very liberating.

[dave251]

I'm learning that simplicity can be very liberating

That's about it for me, too. Lets you concentrate on the MUSIC rather than the GADGETS. But then, I'm coming from an acoustic background where that's your only real option...one of the things playing an acoustic instrument can do for you.

 

Thanks for the great discussion; kind of lets me know that I'm on the right track with enough players to keep on developing our amp design. The problem du jour is the speaker cab. Settled on two basic approaches. The first is the "hifi" design, with a 15" and a tweet, the second is a 212 cab, using a pair of single cone, wide response drivers. This 212 cab should allow the player to dial in a bit of crunch from our class A amp....

 

Here's a sample of the amp in the photo: Ghost Riders

 

I'll try to upload a jazz/chord/melody thing this week sometime....

 

http://electrocoustic.com/newimage/%2336%20+%20proto%20amp.jpg

[tenton]

Originally posted by TieDyedDevil:

Originally posted by tenton:

Interesting TieDye... I've recently been playing around with a 4x10 Blue angel (With Hot Plate) and it's great! I really am beginning to enjoy it. The responsiveness of the amp is terrific, and I love the sound of the combined EL84's and 6V6's.

 

OTOH, I also have a Mesa Mark IV - with 3000+ knobs, channels and options. I have a love hate thing going with it, but tonight tried it with EL34's and 6L6's with a hot plate and I really was back in love.

 

I have not played around with the tone modeling gadgets much, but what I've heard from them I was not impressed. They are close, but when you are finicky, they don't cut it. I think with a bit of work and the right setup you can have a lot of flexibility and great tone.

Yah, I know what you mean about the Mark IV. I go through the same thing with mine. I've never had much luck with the Hotplate and the Mark IV, except when running 6V6s. Since I've started playing the Blue Angel, the Mark IV frustrates me because... well, because I can't get it to "feel" the same way. I really have to use channel switching to get the same range of tones that I can get from the Blue Angel just using pick attack and the guitar's volume control.

 

At the moment, I've rolled the IV into the corner. I still use my Maverick when I need to change between rhythm and highly saturated lead tones. (The Maverick does respond well to the Hotplate. Maybe it has something to do with the cathode-biased EL-84s.)

 

So, you're from Portland too? What part? I'm in SE.

I see we have very similar taste in amps. I've been thinking about a Maverick as well.

 

I'm not ready to give up on the Mark IV yet - I was really happy with the way I set it up last night so there's hope.

 

Are you able to get anything close to the Mark IV lead in the Blue Angel? I'm thinking it ain't gonna' happen, which is too bad because then I'd be really set.

 

I'm in NE. You wouldn't by chance play a Carvin guitar would you? Just wondering if we've met.

[Sylver]

Originally posted by TieDyedDevil:

I'm learning that versatility can't be bought. It's less a matter of gear-related features and more a matter of a good, responsive guitar and amp combined with technique that takes advantage of that responsiveness.

 

My journey over the last few years has led me toward increasing simplicity.

 

I've been through the modeling thing - sold my Line 6... later, turned my nose up at the Vetta during a factory demo.

 

I've sold nearly every effect I bought, keeping only an analog delay, a rotating speaker, a volume pedal and a wah pedal. These don't get much use, but I keep them around for an occasional bit of color.

 

Tube amps: cool, yes. But I thought I really had to have channel switching, master volume amps. Seduced by "versatility", once again...

 

Then I bought a single-channel, non-master volume amp. This has a degree of touch-sensitivity that I have never been able to get from my channel switching amps, no matter how much I tweaked. (I always thought that channel switching was necessary to get a range of distortion ranging from clean to a lead sound.)

 

Now I've discovered that my Mesa/Boogie Blue Angel can give me that full range of tones with variations in pick attack and guitar volume. Yes, I've discovered that I don't need channel switching. (But a Hotplate is essential.)

 

The BA has been described by others as being close to a Fender BF design, but it has small differences in the tone stack, an extra gain stage, and a different output stage.

I'm with you. For me, the guitar---->amp(with the occasional OD pedal in between when that "over the top sound is needed) has made me focus on my playing. There are no effects to make weak playing sound ok. It's about as close to being naked as you can come(Wooooooo Hoooooo!). Breaking my dependence on effects has pushed me to work on being a better player ... playing more cleanly with less miscues and finding melodic, dynamic harmonic interest to create texture instead of electronics.

 

Too bad I still suck.

[doc taz]

Originally posted by Christopher Kemp:

Bottom line - it comes down to the player, more than anything.

Absolutely! My fave example of this is Ty Tabor of King's X. He used to use a Lab Series solid state backline, along with a much maligned Fender strat from the early 1980s. He did use some Dual rectos and a custom Zion strat style guitar for part of the 90s, and Hamers too, but no matter what he uses, it sounds like him. If I'm not mistaken, I think his current rig includes Line 6 stuff for preamp and effects, a Yamaha signature model, and a Mesa 2:90 power amp.

 

I'm sorry Lee found the Triple recto ugly sounding...this beast wishes he had room for one at home!

[TieDyedDevil]

Originally posted by tenton:

I see we have very similar taste in amps. I've been thinking about a Maverick as well.

 

I'm not ready to give up on the Mark IV yet - I was really happy with the way I set it up last night so there's hope.

 

Are you able to get anything close to the Mark IV lead in the Blue Angel? I'm thinking it ain't gonna' happen, which is too bad because then I'd be really set.

 

I'm in NE. You wouldn't by chance play a Carvin guitar would you? Just wondering if we've met.

Yah, there are still some things the Mark IV is best at - like clean headroom.

 

The Blue Angel can do a really saturated lead by cranking the volume and/or using hot pickups. Of course, doing that makes it harder to clean up the sound by backing off on the guitar's volume.

 

On the other hand, the Maverick is great for doing the extreme jump in gain between a clean-ish rhythm and a saturated lead.

 

I don't think we've met, at least not if you're thinking of a Carvin player. I play a Gibson.

[CDave]

Def. the one great tone. I've tried getting it with my amp, but wuss out and use digital modeling for recording. Makes more sense in an apartment building. Eviction sucks!

[CDave]

Def. the one great tone. I've tried getting it with my amp, but wuss out and use digital modeling for recording. Makes more sense in an apartment building. Eviction sucks!